Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Filtercoffee

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So LM rechristened F-16 as F-21 for the IAF with lots of bells and whistles.. MMRCA 2.0 will be interesting

hey UAC and HAL can make the Mig-21 at par with the F-21, same upgrades as the F 16 to F 21 such as a full glass cockpit, E W suite upgrade, super cruise for the Mig-21, new materials, new radar and avionics with a whole new mission computer, 10 times, or more faster then the current Bison upgrade which leads to maybe a new wing design for more fuel and weight carrying capability with pods for armament not specific to missiles and/or guns (gun pods) as required (IMO in the near future for energy weapons, which I read are on the horizon). If only 'Make in India' could do a round up of vendors and suppliers for such a project which is quite attainable, we can have designs like the HF-24 Marut flying with similar upgrades. Just a thought. Also, I hope for a F-15 Silent Eagle or an IAF specific upgraded F-15 fleet over the new F-21.
 

Why so serious?

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India goes to an old friend for fighter aircraft
10Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Updated: Feb 21, 2019, 11.58 AM IST
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    Su 30 MKI performing at a dress rehearsal at Aero Show 2019 at Yalahanka Air Base in Bangalore on Monday.

    BENGALURU: India is turning to old military partner Russia as it scrambles to close gaps in its combat aircraft strength with top officials confirming that procurement of a new squadron of Su 30 MKI jets is under process, besides advanced talks on an additional squadron for MiG 29 UPG fighters.

    With the squadron strength coming dangerously low – it is expected to dip below 30 this year against the sanctioned 42 – these additional jets will be vital for the air force that is retiring all its older generation MiG 21 fighters.
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    “We have got an official request from the Indian side to supply 18 more kits of the Su 30 MKI. This request came in January and now we are preparing our commercial offer,” Anatoly G Punchuk, Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation said.https://prime.economictimes.indiatimes.com/?utm_source=PWA&utm_medium=current&utm_campaign=etprimedistribution


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    He added that advanced talks were on for the upgradation of the already ordered fleet of 272 Su 30 MKI jets.

    On the additional MiGs, the Russian side said that commercial proposal has been sent to India and the two sides will take things forward after a response from New Delhi. “We have got an official request for the supply of 21 planes from the Indian side, two of which are trainers. We have forwarded the commercial proposals and are waiting for a response. The planes have all necessary infrastructure and support in India as well as pilots who are very familiar with it,” the Russian official said.
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    As reported by ET, the plan to acquire 21 additional aircraft to make a new squadron of MiG 29 jets that were first purchased in the 1980s is expected to cost the Indian exchequer less than `6,000 crore.

    This would come to `285 crore per jet that would include weapon systems, training and other supporting equipment required for a new squadron. The negotiations are being carried out under the government-to-government pact with Russia.
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    The Air Force currently operates three squadrons of the Russian fighter jets that are being upgraded in house at its Base Repair Depot. While the multi-role jets have been operating since the 1980s, the air force had signed a `3,850 crore deal in 2008 to upgrade the entire fleet and give it a life extension.
 

Jackd

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NEWSBREAK: Turbulence Ends, India Set To Acquire U.S. ISTAR Jet, 4 More With Indian Sensors
Shiv AroorFeb 22 2019 2 29 pm





After India’s quest to acquire two Raytheon ISTAR advanced airborne battlefield and ground surveillance aircraft collapsed in 2017 over a preposterous — but not uncommon — turf war between the Indian Air Force and DRDO over testing and evaluation of the platform, things appear to be finally on track. Livefist has learnt that the ISTAR program has been resurrected under the auspices of the US-India defence technology & trade initiative (DTTI) and will see the Pentagon supply India with one ISTAR aircraft, while pooling technological resources for a joint effort with the DRDO to create indigenous sensor systems for an additional four aircraft.

In other words, India’s ISTAR acquisition plan has expanded from two aircraft off the shelf previously, to a total of five aircraft now, the last four of which will be integrated with Indian-developed intelligence sensors, avionics and network achitecture. The entire program is likely to cost over $3 billion.

Raytheon’s ISTAR platform, called Sentinel, is based on the long-range Bombardier Global Express jet, is in service with the Royal Air Force. The ISTAR capability has been seen for nearly a decade as crucial to India’s airborne networked surveillance, real time battle intelligence and target acquisition needs, a possible game-changer in an increasingly troubled neighbourhood.

U.S. Embassy sources confirmed that talks were on to freeze modalities of the actual transfer of the first aircraft. Livefistcan also confirm that work has begun at the DRDO’s Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) in Bengaluru on developing the sensors, software, communication equipment and code for the indigenous component of the program, with teams from the U.S. and India to exchange information under the DTTI to take things forward. This is likely to take a few years, given the complexity and sensitivity of the technology involved.

It is not clear if the DRDO and Indian Air Force have worked out their turf battle on testing and evaluation of the ISTAR, though it appears that both have laid down the contours of how it will work going forward. The significance of the requirement is understood to have been a compelling factor in the DRDO and IAF apparently setting aside their differences to make things move.

Apart from airborne intelligence aircraft operated by India’s Research & Analysis Wing (RAW), the Indian Air Force currently operates three Phalcon AWACS (with two more to be contracted) and a single DRDO-Embraer Netra AEW&C jet (a second jet joins service soon). The DRDO is also developing an AWACS system based on the Airbus A330 widebody jet platform, which, as Livefist reported here last year, the IAF wants to double as a mid-air tanker. At the ongoing Aero India show, Boeing reminder the IAF that the Wedgetail AEW&C was still on offer to it. In 2017, the IAF revived a quest for seven SIGINT/COMINT aircraft that will be administered by India’s intelligence agencies.


The IAF’s sole DRDO-Embraer Netra AEW&C at Aero India 2019

With the Netra AEW&C program now officially closed, the DRDO has focused its experience and energies on the Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA) for the Indian Coast Guard, a project revealed first here on Livefist. That program is inadvertently stuck, since it is based on the Airbus C295 platform. And until the Indian government takes a decision on the Airbus-Tata proposal to build 56 C295s in India to replace its old British Avro transport planes, the MMMA program has no choice but to complete its sensor hardware and await clarity on the aircraft platform. The DRDO foresees churning out at least 17 C295-based MMMAs.


The DRDO’s proposed C295-based MMMA for the Indian Coast Guard

U.S. firm Raytheon, which leads the ISTAR/Sentinel program has flown well under the radar for the last few years after a high profile start in the Indian market. Emerging one of India’s first American suppliers of military equipment in after the 1999 Kargil War (which itself came a year after the U.S. imposed sanctions following India’s nuclear tests), Raytheon began by supplying India with AN/TPQ-37 Firefinder weapon and artillery locating radars. It followed this with high profile campaigns for the Javelin anti-tank weapon and Patriot anti-missile system with partner Lockheed-Martin, neither of which ended in a contract. In 2013, Raytheon’s AIM-9X Sidewinder lost out to the MBDA ASRAAM to arm the IAF’s Jaguars. Raytheon-built military equipment will enter Indian service this year in the form of U.S. Army reserve AIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missiles on the IAF’s AH-64E Apache attack helicopters. The revived ISTAR program could mark Raytheon’s big play in the Indian security market.
 

Why so serious?

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  • In a first, IAF commissions aerial surveillance
Kumar Krishen. Photo: LinkedIn
Sharath S. SrivatsaBENGALURU 24 FEBRUARY 2019 22:42 IST
UPDATED: 24 FEBRUARY 2019 22:53 IST

Hyper spectral imagery to track suspicious movements in dense foliage areas

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has commissioned the development of an aerial surveillance system for monitoring suspicious moments under dense foliage cover along the international border and some parts within the country. This hyper spectral imagery programme, a first for the country, seeks to locate and identify suspicious movements and is expected to be operational in the next two years.

What the programme would mean is that the data gathered from aerial sources would be processed within minutes, and researchers would be able to tell security forces on the ground of “unwanted” human presence in the area, their numbers and locations, among other inputs.

The IAF is spending ₹13 crore for the programme in which human resources from premier research and education institutions across the country are being put together, and has roped in a senior researcher and lead technologist of Indian origin from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) as the chief technologist for the programme.








“For the first time, we will be having multi-sensor data fusion that will help identify an adversary. We have a mandate to change the way we fight the war. The IAF is willing to wait for a couple of years to reap the benefits,” said a senior source in the IAF’s Air Warfare Strategy Cell. “Some agencies in India tried to work on the technology, but have not succeeded,” sources added.

The IAF, which had tracked the work of Houston-based senior scientist Kumar Krishen’s work for nearly three years, finally roped him in after he quit NASA in September 2018.

“This is a unique patent application, which will help detect or identify the presence of a human below trees, dense foliage, shrubs or inside a structure, whether it is day or night. It can detect human presence from air even if there a cloud cover, dense fog or snow cover,” explained Dr. Krishen, who spent 43 years in NASA.

Methods in place
Data/images will be captured through optical and infra red sensors — to be most likely mounted on an unmanned aerial vehicle — and processed through deep learning algorithms.

Dr. Krishen said that the methods are in place while they were working on handling data and tuning up the algorithm.

“We are talking to nearly half a dozen educational institutes, including the IIT Delhi and Rourkee. We want to develop sophisticated sensors locally. I am confident of having optical sensors made in India,” said Dr. Krishen.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SIDHARTH: LoLz! It is 100% PAID/FAKE NEWS aimed at derailing the additional orders for Su-30MKIs, which was reported today & which was predicted by me since 2009:

https://www.business-standard.com/a...rs-to-alleviate-shortfall-119013100042_1.html

Such PAID/FAKE NEWS also proves that the parents of these ‘desi patrakaars’ & their endorsers/supporters completely wasted their money when they decided to send their kids to school for getting educated. For, as such PAID/FAKE NEWS proves, these ‘desi patrakaars’ & their endorsers/supporters have ZERO respect for the laws of the physical sciences & consequently end up being the world's laughing stock. Consider the following:

The malicious news-report talks only about wind-tunnel tests, but NOTHING about the all-important electronic integration of the AIM-132 ASRAAM with either the SURA-1 HMDS or the Su-30MKI’s weapons-control computer. And since Russia hasn’t shared the source-codes for any of the on-board mission avionics of the Su-30MKI with India, how the hell can the ASRAAM be electronically integrated? In addition, in case a non-Russian HMDS were to be procured for use with the ASRAAM, then how will the HMDS be integrated with the Su-30MKI’s OLS-30 IRST sensor (whose source-code too has not been shared by Russia with the IAF), which is reqd for nighttime air combat?
Weapons integration therefore is not done with a hammer, screwdriver & some nails. Finally, if the IAF wants to rationalise its stockpiles of SRAAMs, then why the hell was the ASRAAM not selected for the Rafale or the MiG-29UPG or Mirage 2000N? Why were MICA & Meteor AAMs ordered when the ASRAAM/Meteor combination would have sufficed? Hence, from all viewing angles, that news-report is 100% malicious & fake, rest assured. And how can the ASRAAM's Cobham-built ejector be integrated with the Su-30MKI's pylons? Where will the interface come from & who will design/develop it? Has anyone given any thought to all these?

Finally, though the IN had mounted a Sea Eagle ASCM on an external fuselage-mounted pylon on the Il-38 MRMR/ASW aircraft, NOT A SINGLE test-firing in such a configuration was successful & the entire effort was terminated since it was a total failure.

@Enquirer what's your take
Avionics, radar in Su30 has been indigenised with Indian written codes. But IRST is still Russian. It is unlikely that ASRAAM will be integrated into Su30. It simply makes no sense as imported weapons are not reliable during time of war
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Dem niggas switched of GPS during Kargil war, remember?

Hamid Gul was mentioning in a YT video that during cold war one of their missiles exploded in the storehouse and took the whole storehouse. Later they found that someone had bugged it. They kept that option open, just in case they wanted to disarm Pakistan suddenly. If they're placing ELINT stations in Nepal to keep track on us, then bugging a missile seems kinda like a low hanging fruit. Even today, as per a US law, they board our INS Jalashwa amphibious ship once a year, which they had sold us. The contract says that a US team has to certify, every year, that their weapon is being used in accordance with their interests.
Don't talk to him. He is not very bright and has too many biases. He is just a short sighted person. These were the type of people who existed in Indian administration in the past and are responsible for today's problem
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Armenia Orders Su-30, India Seeks Additional Kits

Armenia has placed an order for Sukhoi Su-30SMs, thus becoming the fourth export customer for this recent version in the family of two-seat, heavyweight, multi-role fighters, which feature the “integral three-plane” aerodynamic layout and thrust-vectoring. News of the sale surfaced in local media last month and was confirmed by official sources earlier in February.

A statement released by the defense ministry says: “The Republic of Armenia has signed the respective deal to purchase the Russian-made Su-30SM aircraft.” Later, the ministry’s spokesman, Artsrun Ovannisyan, told news agencies that the equipment is being acquired at the Russian domestic price (which effectively means $50 million per airframe) and that the number of aircraft on order is four, but with the rider that this order is being made “at the initial stage.” Other details of the deal have yet to emerge.

In another recent development for the Su-30, the Indian defense ministry sent an official request to Russia’s Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) and Rosoboronexport arms vendor for 18 additional Su-30MKI assembly kits, a potential deal confirmed by FSVTS officials. If the sides agree on price—an estimated $1.1 billion—and delivery terms, the purchase will come under the previously signed framework agreement between Moscow and New Delhi covering the assembly of the type at Hindustan Aeronautic Limited (HAL)’s plant at Nasik. Under the wider deal, Russia has already supplied 272 such aircraft in both operable (50) and knocked-down kit (222) form. Some of the kits are still in the process of assembly at HAL. Reportedly, shipments of the additional kits should commence in 2020. If all goes to plan, the Indian air force will have 14 squadrons equipped with the Su-30MKI.

For Irkut, a member of UAC, the additional orders for the Su-30SM/MKI are important to bridge the gap between the completion of the production run of the Sukhoi fighters and commencement of serial manufacture of the MC-21 passenger jetliner, which has suffered repeated delays. To help the manufacturer overcome the difficulties of the transition period, the Russian defense ministry has voiced plans to buy 60 more Su-30SMs, to add to 112 already acquired since the first delivery in February 2014. Earlier, UAC president Yuri Slyusar said that Irkut hopes to have sufficient backlog to support Sukhoi fighter jet production through 2022 at an annual rate of 12-14 airframes.


The Su-30SM represents a further improved version of the Su-30MKI, with which it shares airframe and AL-31FP augmented turbofans with thrust-vectoring. The differences are confined to avionics and mission equipment, reflecting a 12-year gap between the maiden flights, since the Su-30MKI flew for the first time in November 2000. The N-011М Bars radar is replaced by the more powerful Bars-R with longer detection ranges and the ability to employ the RVV-SV medium-range air-to-air missile and other advanced weaponry. Instead of the Elbit Systems SU967 head-up display, the Su-30SM comes with either a Thales Avionics SMD55S/VEN-3022 or Russian-made IKSh-1M, both offering a wider field of view. The Russian-made LINS-1000RS inertial navigation replaces the Thales INS/GPS Totem. The Su-30SM is also equipped with the Khibiny self-protection EW suite instead of Israeli electronic countermeasures in the Su-30MKI.

To date, shipments of Su-30SM variants to Russian domestic customers Belarus and Kazakhstan, plus customized export Su-30MKIs to India, and derivative Su-30MKMs to Malaysia, and Su-30MKAs to Algeria, are approaching 500. The remaining order backlog and recent commitments indicate a production run of up to 600.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...enia-orders-su-30-india-seeks-additional-kits

:balleballe: :balleballe: :balleballe:

As I keep saying, vote MODI or get ready for dalali to return and IAF to be left with 1 Tiger Moth squadron!
This is fake news. How can 18 Su30 have 1.1 billion dollar cost of import? Also, Su30 is indigenised and nothing new is needed. Unless there is Super Sukhoi upgrade, it is menaingess to talk of imports
And then our fanboys boasting about manufacturing Su30 including engine in India under ToT:rofl::rofl:.
Some random fool says anything and yo immediately jump? @captscooby81 & @G10 also jumped in like cheap people without thinking properly. Every reasonable person has already told that Su30 is made in India
 

SilentKiller

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Indian govt should buy more rafale fighters.
tabhi sirf 36 order kiye and not 126...what was the point of delaying Tejas?
Porkis inducted JF17 without even getting IOC, Brazil inducting Sab Gripen without IOC..Even US started inducting F35 without getting IOC..
 

arya

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tabhi sirf 36 order kiye and not 126...what was the point of delaying Tejas?
Porkis inducted JF17 without even getting IOC, Brazil inducting Sab Gripen without IOC..Even US started inducting F35 without getting IOC..

its a well plan of our enemies to keep our airforce weak as much they can , china is flying 5th gen planes we are still struggling for 4 th gen planes .

we should rejoin pakfa project and give power to iaf
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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well i think we should go for 72 No su35 planes as it much better then Rafael we need fighter planes without any delay
Stop repeating this import lobby. India has Su30 manufacturing ability. That is enough for us. Importing unnecessarily is not meaningful. france gave some TOT for Rafale and hence it was bought, not because Rafale was awesome
 

arya

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Stop repeating this import lobby. India has Su30 manufacturing ability. That is enough for us. Importing unnecessarily is not meaningful. france gave some TOT for Rafale and hence it was bought, not because Rafale was awesome

well we can make su35 as we are making su30mki in hal , hal +some pvt company can do that at fast speed , its not about import or indigenous.

its all about time, requirement , and what our enemies has ??
 

SilentKiller

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Stop repeating this import lobby. India has Su30 manufacturing ability. That is enough for us. Importing unnecessarily is not meaningful. france gave some TOT for Rafale and hence it was bought, not because Rafale was awesome
no ToT on Rafale, 36 are french made, only thing french are giving is under offset clause, i.e. will allow doors and knobs of some other planes will be manufactured by indian vendors or OEM and sent back to France for assembly..India does have capability to manufacture Su30MKI but a lot content and material is still sourced from russia, biggest component is Engine
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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no ToT on Rafale, 36 are french made, only thing french are giving is under offset clause, i.e. will allow doors and knobs of some other planes will be manufactured by indian vendors or OEM and sent back to France for assembly..India does have capability to manufacture Su30MKI but a lot content and material is still sourced from russia, biggest component is Engine
No, France gave $1.5 billion of TOT to DRDO.

How many times should I say that India manufactures Su300 and only imports raw material. Engine, radar are all made in India
 

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Century Of Service Between Them, IAF Says Its MiG-21 Just Scored World’s 1st F-16 Kill





In a Cold War wet dream that has at once stunned and captured the imagination of international security watchers across the world, the Indian Air Force today declared that a MiG-21 Bison fighter managed to shoot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16D on Wednesday morning over the restive Line of Control that separates Jammu & Kashmir from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

The MiG-21, from the Indian Air Force’s 51 Squadron ‘Sword Arms’ is said to have conducted the kill using a Russian Vympel R-73 close combat missile. The Indian Air Force today, as part of an effort to conclusively prove that it was a group of F-16 that led the sweep, produced evidence of an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile fired from the F-16, that likely brought down the MiG-21. The IAF also said it had captured electronic signatures of the aggressing aircraft, concluding that it was an F-16. While the Bison’s pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was captured in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, two Pakistani pilots who punched out of the F-16D are currently unaccounted for. Pakistan has switched to claiming no loss after first announcing that it had shot down two Indian jets. The abrupt correction has led to the widespread belief that Pakistan initially believed it had shot down two Indian jets, but discovered only later that it was in fact an F-16D that had come down.

While information has been scant and buffeted by a typical hail of claims and counterclaims by both sides, Livefist has learnt from reliable sources that the unprecedented peacetime aerial confrontation yesterday — which came after a group of Indian Mirage 2000 jets flew into Pakistan a day previous to bomb a terrorist facility in the town of Balakot — was much larger than initially reported.

It is understood that at least 20 Pakistan Air Force jets, a mix of F-16s, Mirages and JF-17s got airborne from a series of air bases in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, quickly turning south towards Pakistan’s Sindh. They remained in the air for over 30 minutes, possible in an act of deception. Indian airborne early warning assets in the air had picked up the movement, with bases in Srinagar and Punjab alerted. The PAF fighter package then turned north towards the Line of Control, with all but three F-16s turning west towards their airfields, but staying in the air. The 3 F-16s then began the sweep, headed straight towards the Sunderbani sector of the Line of Control. By this time two MiG-21s from Srinagar were airborne and headed straight for the intercept. Two more MiG-21s got airborne a few minutes later, followed by a pair of Mirage 2000s. A pair of Su-30 MKI jets were already in the air on a combat air patrol further south, diverted to provide cover for the intercept. The rare within visual range engagement occured over the Sunderbani sector, with both jets — and all 3 pilots — plunging into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

Amidst significant claims made by both sides, perhaps most significant to aviation watchers has been the nature of the close air engagement between two nuclear armed nations, and the Cold War flavour of the actual fight.

Aviation photographer, author and analyst Angad Singh says, “It’s historic, but at the same time I am not too surprised. The Bison is among the most capable of all MiG-21 variants, and I would put money on a capable pilot in a Bison cockpit any day.”

Italian journalist David Cenciotti, who runs he excellent Aviationist blog, writes, “If confirmed, it’s significant, as it would prove once again that when it deals with aerial engagement, not always does the more modern and capable weapon system (in this case the F-16 Block 52) wins. Several factors must be taken into consideration: pilot skills; support from other assets (including fighters and AEW aircraft), ground radars, etc. Above all, RoE play an essential role: if the Rules of Engagement require a positive VID of the opponent, a fighter might be forced to come WVR (Within Visual Range) where a MiG-21 can be particularly threatening. That’s why even 5th gen aircraft regularly train with legacy adversaries.”

He adds, “The MiG-21 Bison is an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21. Although the design is obsolete, its low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and acceleration, and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles are among the factors that can make the upgraded MiG-21 a threatening adversary, even for more modern fighters.” (More from Cenciotti on Livefist here).

Veteran MiG-21 fighter pilot & author-historian Air Vice Marshal Arjun Subramaniam says, “An IAF Bison shot down an F-16 with a close combat missile the R-73 and during the pursuit crossed the LC and was brought down by ground fire. It was classic aerial action and of great significance that an F-16 was downed by an IAF Mig-21.”

Steve Trimble, defense editor at Aviation Week tweeted, “Don’t forget those same MiG-21s embarrassed USAF F-15Cs at Cope India in 2006.” He later told Livefist, “The F-16 was designed specifically to beat the MiG-21, but AMRAAM, which came later, can be a great equalizer if basic fighter maneuvers are not involved.” (More from Trimble on Livefist here).

Vishnu Som, defence editor with NDTV, says, “While we don’t know the exact circumstances in which the IAF pilot was shot down, let’s not for a moment forget that he shot down an F-16 first (possibly an F-16 Block 50) with an upgraded MiG-21 Bison, a jet which first entered service with the IAF in the sixties.”

Yusuf Unjhawala, defence columnist and editor of Indian Defence Forum, says, “That a MiG-21 shot down an F-16 is proof of its capability & our pilot training. A few years back MiG-21s won against US F-16s at Cope India.”

Mihir Shah, aviation watcher and columnist, says, “The significance of a supposedly obsolete MiG-21 shooting down a more modern F-16 cannot be understated. It goes to show that legacy systems can (and often are) upgraded to stay competitive against with their more modern counterparts. The MiG-21’s R-73 missile, cued by a helmet-mounted sight, is a formidable close-combat weapon. And it emphasizes the old adage that equipment isn’t everything—the man behind the machine matters just as much, if not more. Wing Commander Abhinandan was a well-trained, experienced pilot, and those qualities showed up in spades during this engagement.”

With the aerial confrontation once again lighting up the F-16 in the Indian public imagination as a Pakistani jet, one wonders if Lockheed-Martin was prescient, if cynical, to re-designate its F-16 variant on offer to India as the F-21. Given the reinforced stigma from this week’s proceedings, the company will likely double down on emphasising that the F-21 is a ‘new fighter inside and out’. The efficacy of that strategy remains to be seen.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...-mig-21-just-scored-worlds-1st-f-16-kill.html
 

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