Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Mikesingh]

Fighter aircraft will be passé by the year 2030 or so. It will be the age of the UCAS. The Americans have already started changing their future air warfare doctrine incorporating the UCAS.

Black Projects like Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works and Boeing's Phantom Works are in the fray to produce UCASs of the future which will be better than the best 5th generation stealth fighter aircraft of today, having full situational awareness with pilots controlling them from hundreds of miles away, supplemented with AI which would make the UCAS fully autonomous platforms that can seek and destroy targets by themselves.

Like these ...

Boeing Phantom Works Fully Autonomous Terminator.

Remember the Sci-Fi movie, 'Stealth' with fully autonomous UCAVs having AI named Eddie? Well, Sci-Fi has this habit of becoming reality sooner than later!

I think we need to concentrate more on such unmanned aerial combat weapon systems as they are the future. These are far cheaper to build and can be produced faster and in greater numbers. 'Pilots' would be safely ensconced far away in their control rooms.

Here's the control room of a Predator over Afghanistan thousands of miles away in Nevada!


As one Predator pilot said,“Normally, when you go to war, you go into a theater. In the Predator world, you’re in Las Vegas. You get up in the morning, kiss the wife goodbye and drive up the base. But when you get into the box, you’re right there in the theater. You’re at war. It’s incredibly strange.”

So, shouldn't we spend more on such advanced systems instead? What do you guys think?

 

[patriots]

Fighter aircraft will be passé by the year 2030 or so. It will be the age of the UCAS. The Americans have already started changing their future air warfare doctrine incorporating the UCAS.

Black Projects like Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works and Boeing's Phantom Works are in the fray to produce UCASs of the future which will be better than the best 5th generation stealth fighter aircraft of today, having full situational awareness with pilots controlling them from hundreds of miles away, supplemented with AI which would make the UCAS fully autonomous platforms that can seek and destroy targets by themselves.

Like these ...

Boeing Phantom Works Fully Autonomous Terminator.

Remember the Sci-Fi movie, 'Stealth' with fully autonomous UCAVs having AI named Eddie? Well, Sci-Fi has this habit of becoming reality sooner than later!

I think we need to concentrate more on such unmanned aerial combat weapon systems as they are the future. These are far cheaper to build and can be produced faster and in greater numbers. 'Pilots' would be safely ensconced far away in their control rooms.

Here's the control room of a Predator over Afghanistan thousands of miles away in Nevada!


So, shouldn't we spend more on such advanced systems instead? What do you guys think?

we have ghtak ucav .......bdw a lots of money is required..,..................for such development s.......

 

[Pandeyji]

Isn't ordering more rafales the most logical thing to do? We have already ordered 36. It is a capable aircraft. Firstly, why increase our logistical burden by adding another aircraft type to the fleet, and secondly, what is left to review in those 6 fighters again that we haven't seen in the last mmrca saga. As far as the thought of Rafale being expensive is considered, let me remind you all, the same was felt in the 80's when Mirage 2000's were procured. But, we all know they were the most capable aircrafts in our fleet until the Sukhoi-30 mki's came. Quality comes at a price, and we are talking of the most technology intensive military platforms, when we talk of combat airplanes.

The French are becoming haughty again. An ongoing tender would bring them down to earth. The added benefit of bringing the Russians in line is also there.

 

[Tanmay]

Isn't ordering more rafales the most logical thing to do? We have already ordered 36. It is a capable aircraft. Firstly, why increase our logistical burden by adding another aircraft type to the fleet, and secondly, what is left to review in those 6 fighters again that we haven't seen in the last mmrca saga. As far as the thought of Rafale being expensive is considered, let me remind you all, the same was felt in the 80's when Mirage 2000's were procured. But, we all know they were the most capable aircrafts in our fleet until the Sukhoi-30 mki's came. Quality comes at a price, and we are talking of the most technology intensive military platforms, when we talk of combat airplanes.

I don't think there's any other aircraft remaining except for F35 which can participate in the competition apart from the original original 6 MMRCA contenders . So if the competition again involves the same 6 aircrafts and a new winner is announced this time was the previous technical competition faulty?
Eurofighter will be a mess There's no Europe now
Maybe it's just a govt ploy for commercial bids ( not technical since extensive trails were already held).
This way govt can get a complete actual price range other than the incomplete UPA commercial bids

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

The French are becoming haughty again. An ongoing tender would bring them down to earth. The added benefit of bringing the Russians in line is also there.

This also makes sense, would give us more negotiating room

 

[Babloo Singh]

My two paisa worth thoughts on new tender for MMRCA.....
When dust settles, what we will get is Rafael's and lots of them.... most likely 40-54 Rafale M for Navy.... & may be 32 more for IAF, Rafales will have major advantage as in this new tender they will offer, planes equipped with Kaveri Engines instead of M-88.

And they will offer partnership for our Tejas MK II & AMCA, which means we will get tech support & ToT for vital systems to improve capability & reduce development time for both these projects.

Finally our Tejas MK II is going to turn into Single Engine Mini Rafael & AMCA will be stealth version of Rafael..
& both will finally fly with versions of Safaranized Kaveri.

 

[Tanmay]

My two paisa worth thoughts on new tender for MMRCA.....
When dust settles, what we will get is Rafael's and lots of them.... most likely 40-54 Rafale M for Navy.... & may be 32 more for IAF, Rafales will have major advantage as in this new tender they will offer, planes equipped with Kaveri Engines instead of M-88.

And they will offer partnership for our Tejas MK II & AMCA, which means we will get tech support & ToT for vital systems to improve capability & reduce development time for both these projects.

Finally our Tejas MK II is going to turn into Single Engine Mini Rafael & AMCA will be stealth version of Rafael..
& both will finally fly with versions of Safaranized Kaveri.

By the time Tejas mk2 is accepted by IAF it will be equivalent to mig 21 of that period

 

[Adioz]

Fighter aircraft will be passé by the year 2030 or so. It will be the age of the UCAS. The Americans have already started changing their future air warfare doctrine incorporating the UCAS.

Black Projects like Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works and Boeing's Phantom Works are in the fray to produce UCASs of the future which will be better than the best 5th generation stealth fighter aircraft of today, having full situational awareness with pilots controlling them from hundreds of miles away, supplemented with AI which would make the UCAS fully autonomous platforms that can seek and destroy targets by themselves.

Like these ...

Boeing Phantom Works Fully Autonomous Terminator.

Remember the Sci-Fi movie, 'Stealth' with fully autonomous UCAVs having AI named Eddie? Well, Sci-Fi has this habit of becoming reality sooner than later!

I think we need to concentrate more on such unmanned aerial combat weapon systems as they are the future. These are far cheaper to build and can be produced faster and in greater numbers. 'Pilots' would be safely ensconced far away in their control rooms.

Here's the control room of a Predator over Afghanistan thousands of miles away in Nevada!


As one Predator pilot said,“Normally, when you go to war, you go into a theater. In the Predator world, you’re in Las Vegas. You get up in the morning, kiss the wife goodbye and drive up the base. But when you get into the box, you’re right there in the theater. You’re at war. It’s incredibly strange.”

So, shouldn't we spend more on such advanced systems instead? What do you guys think?

No weapon system is going to be fully automated. There is always going to be a human in the decision loop, AI notwithstanding. Which makes UCAVs' comms. vulnerable, at least until quantum entanglement communication becomes the norm sometime post 2040. By then, we will have enough time, money and expertise to throw at this tech hurdle. And with Ghatak UCAV, the process has already begun.

 

[Sancho]

Isn't ordering more rafales the most logical thing to do? We have already ordered 36. It is a capable aircraft. Firstly, why increase our logistical burden by adding another aircraft type to the fleet

The only reason the PM made the decision to buy 36 Rafales in a PR deal, was the non compliance of Dassault to the RFP rules. So we couldn't get 126 x Rafales because of Dassault in the first place and IAF was forced to increase the logistical burden, when the PM made his deal and the SE MMRCA was created.
If Dassault had played by the rules, we could have signed contracts easily between 2013 and 2015, be it under UPA or NDA governments. So all this mess could had been avoided long ago and IAF is suffering as a result of the ego of a foreign OEM.

In addition to that, comes the failure of the NDA government to make any logical "decision" in the fighter procurements.

- they could had disqualified Dassault for non compliance and negotiated with the L2

- they could had scrapped MMRCA and initiated a new tender for 126 fighters under their own policies (they did the same in the LUH, Avro replacement and now tanker tenders too), without forcing IAF to accept different types of MMRCAs

- they could had cancelled MMRCA and combined the naval and IAF fighter requirements, to have just 1 larger tender and even less participants (Mikoyan, Boeing, Dassault and Saab)

But no, they made a PR deal for Rafales to not be empty handed, when they cancel MMRCA and initiated the SE MMRCA and a separate naval tender instead and now (possibly) make another U turn.
That's proves the lack of knowledge about defence, the lack of a proper defence minister, that deals with procurements independently from the PMO and that the government is "indecisive" to what they actually want (Rafale, SE MMRCAs, more MKIs, LCAs, FGFA, F35...MMRCAs again???).

 

[Sancho]

I don't think there's any other aircraft remaining except for F35 which can participate in the competition apart from the original original 6 MMRCA contenders .

If the requirements and limitations of the initial MMRCA remains, the F35 could not participate with a MTOW above 30t. But also keep in mind that it's not on offer for India. LM still says buy F16 to get F35 later, while the US government is not willing to approve the sale of their highest techs to India yet.

 

[binayak95]

The only reason the PM made the decision to buy 36 Rafales in a PR deal, was the non compliance of Dassault to the RFP rules. So we couldn't get 126 x Rafales because of Dassault in the first place and IAF was forced to increase the logistical burden, when the PM made his deal and the SE MMRCA was created.
If Dassault had played by the rules, we could have signed contracts easily between 2013 and 2015, be it under UPA or NDA governments. So all this mess could had been avoided long ago and IAF is suffering as a result of the ego of a foreign OEM.

In addition to that, comes the failure of the NDA government to make any logical "decision" in the fighter procurements.

- they could had disqualified Dassault for non compliance and negotiated with the L2

- they could had scrapped MMRCA and initiated a new tender for 126 fighters under their own policies (they did the same in the LUH, Avro replacement and now tanker tenders too), without forcing IAF to accept different types of MMRCAs

- they could had cancelled MMRCA and combined the naval and IAF fighter requirements, to have just 1 larger tender and even less participants (Mikoyan, Boeing, Dassault and Saab)

But no, they made a PR deal for Rafales to not be empty handed, when they cancel MMRCA and initiated the SE MMRCA and a separate naval tender instead and now (possibly) make another U turn.
That's proves the lack of knowledge about defence, the lack of a proper defence minister, that deals with procurements independently from the PMO and that the government is "indecisive" to what they actually want (Rafale, SE MMRCAs, more MKIs, LCAs, FGFA, F35...MMRCAs again???).

No, the decision to not go for the L2 was because Eurofighter is a mess. A conglomerate of nations manufacturing a fighter is asking for trouble at a time of crisis should any nation decide to play hard ball and block spares.
The decision to with Rafale is because France is a trusted strategic partner, one with which our cooperation is exponentially increasing. Rafales, joint work on Kaveri, Logistics pacts, and gods know what more in the future.

This SEF was floated out to test the waters, to see how far the Muricans and the Russians can be pushed. Both bailed out. Now this new MMRCA is to muddy the waters and then buy scores of Rafales more.

 

[Bornubus]

The decision to with Rafale is because France is a trusted strategic partner, one with which our cooperation is exponentially increasing. Rafales, joint work on Kaveri, Logistics pacts, and gods know what more in the future.

True, France also provided Exocet, Mirages and Air defence to Iraqis same Exocet which hit US Navy Frigate

In Indian context our one so called close friend took Rs 35,000 per frame (if I remember correctly ) for satellite images during kargil war

 

[Babloo Singh]

By the time Tejas mk2 is accepted by IAF it will be equivalent to mig 21 of that period

All the original participants of MMRCA tender will probably participate in new MMRCA tender...... which going by IST will take min a decade to close and get the planes delivered... may be two decades to complete the full order..... and they will have useful life of.... I wonder how many year.... from start of first MMRCA tender to end of life of all delivered MMRCA aircraft...... well Indian Standard Time can convert even F-35 into Mig 21

 

[binayak95]

True, France also provided Exocet, Mirages and Air defence to Iraqis same Exocet which hit US Navy Frigate

In Indian context our one so called close friend took Rs 35,000 per frame (if I remember correctly ) for satellite images during kargil war

And provided support for integrating Israeli pods and US bombs onto Mirage 2000s

 

[Sancho]

No, the decision to not go for the L2 was because Eurofighter is a mess.

That's your opinion, not a fact. And since the government had no explanation on the question why EF was not considered, that remains to be one of the secrets of the PMs deals.

Also you are confusing France the nation with Dassault the company. France the nation is a reliable strategic partner, Dassault the company has proven, that it is only interested in it's own interest!

 

[Sancho]

All the original participants of MMRCA tender will probably participate in new MMRCA tender......

Well, first of all we need an official scrapping and re-tendering to know what is going to happen. But I don't think they will allow all participants back, maybe keep the Russians out again, like in the tanker deal?

 

[Tactical Frog]

If Livefist info about IAF favouring a single platform for both IAF and Indian Navy is correct, then the face saver would be a tender with four fighters only : F-35 , Rafale, F/A 18 and Gripen.

Add tech transfer and Make in India requirements and F-35 has basically no winning chances.

Such a tender would be tailored for Rafale

EDIT : it is unclear to me if at this stage US gov would allow Lockheed to field F-35

 

[ezsasa]

That's your opinion, not a fact. And since the government had no explanation on the question why EF was not considered, that remains to be one of the secrets of the PMs deals.

Also you are confusing France the nation with Dassault the company. France the nation is a reliable strategic partner, Dassault the company has proven, that it is only interested in it's own interest!

Not much of a secret...

Eurofighters were having airframes cracks around the same time, across multiple European airforces.

 

[binayak95]

Not much of a secret...

Eurofighters were having airframes cracks around the same time, across multiple European airforces.

Eurofighters recently stopped over in India (last year) on their way to Malaysia for an exercise. Out of twelve airframes, four had to dropout, various different issues with both engines and the airframes. I can confirm this a 100%

 

[cyclops]

If Livefist info about IAF favouring a single platform for both IAF and Indian Navy is correct, then the face saver would be a tender with four fighters only : F-35 , Rafale, F/A 18 and Gripen.

Add tech transfer and Make in India requirements and F-35 has basically no winning chances.

Such a tender would be tailored for Rafale

EDIT : it is unclear to me if at this stage US gov would allow Lockheed to field F-35

It is better to take anything out of Aroor's mouthpiece with a live-'fist' full of salt.

He has been shilling super hard for the Americans for some time now, there are rumours of him being courted by the americans.