Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Steven Rogers]

How can anyone make something which one is studying? If it is already made, it can't be remade. I said that kaveri was made by studying these engines. Since, we already had the design available readily, most of the headbreaking is avoided. Now, only fine tuning, alloying is left. We also make most of Al31 engine except for critical parts. So, we have experience of doing some parts of engine too. Now, building upon it should not be called impossible. I only see UPA as responsible. The arrest of the GTRE chief in 2011 only confirms my suspicion

India designed the Kaveri before it can get hands on Al31 or GEF404, they ran it first time when we didn't had GEF404 and Al31, and for some basic :- Kaveri is a variable cycle flat rated engine which none of the mentioned engines are, Kaveri inside is totally different from both of the engine. So indeed it was done by the hard work of GTRE scientists than fan following.

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[Steven Rogers]

Tejas is a SE fighter, yeah. But it's more of a long term replacement - lead in replacement for alll the MiG 21s (we have 240 odd MiG 21s). What about the MiG 27s ? We will need 5-6 squadrons to replace those too, and before you come in and say the Tejas can do the job of the MiG 27, just don't okay...

The GoI isn't an idiot to create a complete infrastructure and base facilities for the Rafale at two airbases and then limit itself to 36 Rafales. 36 more Rafales aren't going to cost a hell of a lot more than say 36 Su-30MKIs, and they are far better aircraft in some key areas as well.

Spare part supplies, and tech support, atleast when it comes to France is a no brainer, given just how reliable they proved in the past. We've used AMX-13s, Dassault Ouragans and Mysteres, and relied upon their help in Kargil. That's the very reason why we chose the Rafale over the Eurofighter in the 1st place and why we are looking so closely at the Rubis N-subs.

About the whole F-16 thing - it will happen - simply inevitable for a whole host of reasons - either the F-16 or mayhaps, the Advanced Super Hornet. Just wait and watch.

You are saying that India will sign a 20 billion dollars SE aircraft deal.

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[Vinod DX9]

At last 83 Tejas 1A coming

 

[Sancho]

MMRCA had to be cancelled because it got way out of hand.

That's the issue of the tender and may be true or not, the problem however is, that IAF had an operational requirement of at least 126 x MMRCAs that is needed to defend the country and the government only ordered 36. So no matter why the tender was cancelled, without having an appropriate replacement to deal with the requirement, IAF is in disadvantage! Even if we had ordered 36 x F35s, it would not be enough to defend the country, since the numbers are too low and located only in specific areas.

Besides, do we need 120 odd Medium Fighters on top of 270 Su-30MKIs?

There is no doubt that we need more MMRCAs, it's just unfortunate that we now are forced to split the requirement into 2 types. But to be able to fight a 2 front war, against 2 highly capable enemies, 270 MKIs with specific weapons and systems are not enough. Not to mention that the operational costs will be reduced, if you can take over more roles from high cost heavy class fighters. Doing recon for example is not cost-effective if done by MKI, but it's currently the best choice because it can carry larger pods and has enough endurance. Same goes for escort or CAP roles, where we currently don't have an alternative fighter, that is placed all around the country.

 

[Kshithij]

That's the issue of the tender and may be true or not, the problem however is, that IAF had an operational requirement of at least 126 x MMRCAs that is needed to defend the country and the government only ordered 36. So no matter why the tender was cancelled, without having an appropriate replacement to deal with the requirement, IAF is in disadvantage! Even if we had ordered 36 x F35s, it would not be enough to defend the country, since the numbers are too low and located only in specific areas.



There is no doubt that we need more MMRCAs, it's just unfortunate that we now are forced to split the requirement into 2 types. But to be able to fight a 2 front war, against 2 highly capable enemies, 270 MKIs with specific weapons and systems are not enough. Not to mention that the operational costs will be reduced, if you can take over more roles from high cost heavy class fighters. Doing recon for example is not cost-effective if done by MKI, but it's currently the best choice because it can carry larger pods and has enough endurance. Same goes for escort or CAP roles, where we currently don't have an alternative fighter, that is placed all around the country.

To be able to fight 2 front war, it is important to have indigenous manufacturing, not imports. For that, you need to elect government that focuses on indigenous production, research and development.

Importing was never a meaningful option. It serves as an opium for retarded people to pat on their own back.

 

[Vinod DX9]

HAL gets RFP for LCH...now LCH should get an official name

 

[pmaitra]

Rafale canards are a problem, and will escalate total lifetime programme costs by billions of Euros
Posted on December 10, 2017 by Bharat Karnad

(Rafale)

The Indian Air Force has a proud 70-year record of BONE-HEADED acquisition decisions. Among them (1) the purchase of the under-powered British Jaguar DPSA at the expense of the entirely indigenously-designed but supposedly “under-powered” Marut HF-24 Mk-II (aka HF-73) and, in the process, registering a collateral kill — as intended — of the indigenous Indian combat aircraft industry for nearly two generations (until an indigenous capability was revived from zero baseline with the Tejas LCA; (2) preferring the MiG-23 BN rather than a squadron of the Tu-22 Backfire bombers painted with IAF roundels that were ready to take-off for India had the Air Marshal Sheodeo Singh mission in the early summer of 1971 made the decision to take it as the Russians were urging it to; (3) No Tu-22, so no follow-on aircraft to the medium range Canberra bomber, and hence, disastrously, the complete elimination of the bomber from the IAF fleet; a decision not corrected by leasing the Tu-160 Blackjack; (4) the contretemps over inducting the Tejas LCA and derivatives in large numbers as the main bulk aircraft and, most recently, (5) the Rafale buy.

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Commentary:

Only the first paragraph is posted here. The remaining article is about the Rafale and should be posted in the dedicated Rafale thread.

Critique of the comments made:

(1) the purchase of the under-powered British Jaguar DPSA at the expense of the entirely indigenously-designed but supposedly “under-powered” Marut HF-24 Mk-II (aka HF-73) and, in the process, registering a collateral kill — as intended — of the indigenous Indian combat aircraft industry for nearly two generations (until an indigenous capability was revived from zero baseline with the Tejas LCA;

The Jaguar is under-powered all right, but the issue is not just with the power of the engines. The same engines on a better designed aircraft could perform better.

The Jaguar has a total thrust of 2 × 22.75 kN = 45.5 kN, while the modern Boom XB-1 has a total thrust of 3 × 13.1 kN = 39.3 kN. To be fair to Jaguar, it is old, in design, materials, and available technology.
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(2) preferring the MiG-23 BN rather than a squadron of the Tu-22 Backfire bombers painted with IAF roundels that were ready to take-off for India had the Air Marshal Sheodeo Singh mission in the early summer of 1971 made the decision to take it as the Russians were urging it to;

The Tupolev-22 is not a good design. The Tupolev-22M(1/2/3) is a radically different design, despite the similarity in nomenclature.

Tupolev-22

Tupolev-22M(1/2/3)

What Mr. Karnad is suggesting that the Tupolev-22 should have been acquired. Acquiring the Tupolev-22M would have been a good option, but MiG-23 was certainly a better acquisition than Tupolev-22.

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(3) No Tu-22, so no follow-on aircraft to the medium range Canberra bomber, and hence, disastrously, the complete elimination of the bomber from the IAF fleet; a decision not corrected by leasing the Tu-160 Blackjack;

The Soviet Union would have probably never agreed to lease the Tupolev-160 to India.
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(4) the contretemps over inducting the Tejas LCA and derivatives in large numbers as the main bulk aircraft and, most recently,

That is true.
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(5) the Rafale buy.

Should be addressed separately.

 

[Hindustani78]

Dec 24, 2017 14:43 IST

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  Indian Airforce (IAF) MI-8 Helicopter, also known as 'PRATAP' makes final flight during the phasing out ceremony held to bid adieu to the Russian made multi-role chopper at the Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore on Sunday. (Manjunath Kiran / AFP)
  
  
  
  
  

 

[SELVAM1]

Dec 24, 2017 14:43 IST

• 
  Indian Airforce (IAF) MI-8 Helicopter, also known as 'PRATAP' makes final flight during the phasing out ceremony held to bid adieu to the Russian made multi-role chopper at the Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore on Sunday. (Manjunath Kiran / AFP)
  
  
  
  

Hi bro see your conversation msg

 

[Vinod DX9]

If individually each aircraft datas are taken....
This is what should have been strength of IAF (beyond 2030, after retirements of Mig-21/27/29, Mirage-2000 and Jaguars)
Tejas 294
Rafale 126
FGFA 214
Su-30MKI Super Sukhoi 312
AMCA Unknown no

But now only 272 MKI, 126 Tejas & 36 Rafales in sight

 

[Kshithij]

View attachment 22197
If individually each aircraft datas are taken....
This is what should have been strength of IAF (beyond 2030, after retirements of Mig-21/27/29, Mirage-2000 and Jaguars)
Tejas 294
Rafale 126
FGFA 214
Su-30MKI Super Sukhoi 312
AMCA Unknown no

But now only 272 MKI, 126 Tejas & 36 Rafales in sight

It is always better to have limited type of planes for better logistics and repair. Mass manufacturing of parts will also be easier as it requires limited number of machines, easier to train employees etc.

I see no reason to go for more than 2 class of aircraft - LCA Mk2 and AMCA. Since Su30 is already ordered, even it will be present and so will Rafale.

I don't however, see the reason to keep FGFA in any quantity or Rafale in 126 quantity. FGFA most probably will not be signed

 

[Vinod DX9]

Israeli spike for lch?
israeli media says so

 

[Kshithij]

Israeli spike for lch?
israeli media says so

Why not Helina or the new long distance variant - SANT? It is really bad that India keeps importing things which it already has for no reason. Also, spike was proven to be inferior to Helina which had a better range and better adaptability to all weather - from 50 degree celsius to -20 degree celsius.

 

[Vinod DX9]

IAF postet.possibly first time featured a Rafale...

 

[Anikastha]

It is always better to have limited type of planes for better logistics and repair. Mass manufacturing of parts will also be easier as it requires limited number of machines, easier to train employees etc.

I see no reason to go for more than 2 class of aircraft - LCA Mk2 and AMCA. Since Su30 is already ordered, even it will be present and so will Rafale.

I don't however, see the reason to keep FGFA in any quantity or Rafale in 126 quantity. FGFA most probably will not be signed

If AMCA falls in line and doesn't face similiar fate of LCA...Then IAF will stick to AMCA instead of PAKFA/FGFA

 

[Vinod DX9]

Total Mig-21 now is 244
Mig-27 84

 

[aditya10r]

View attachment 22197
If individually each aircraft datas are taken....
This is what should have been strength of IAF (beyond 2030, after retirements of Mig-21/27/29, Mirage-2000 and Jaguars)
Tejas 294
Rafale 126
FGFA 214
Su-30MKI Super Sukhoi 312
AMCA Unknown no

But now only 272 MKI, 126 Tejas & 36 Rafales in sight

My calculations say there are 2 different possibilities.

#1 possibility

272 su-30mki
220 HAL Tejas
36 Rafale
100-150 mii jet
110 mig-29+mirage 2000
50/60 jaguar (some where delivered very late by HAL)
100 Pak-fa

#2 possibility

272 su-30mki
294 Tejas (as sought earlier)
126 rafales(as sought earlier)
110 mig-29 Mirage 2000
50/60 jaguar
100 Pak-fa

No AMCA before 2032/35

But I guess these numbers won't be enough to conduct full spectrum operations on both fronts as by 2032 china will have 2000+ jet fighters(mostly 4th generation jets with some 500-700 5th gen ones) and pakistan would have taken delivery of some 300 jf-17 and I guess they would have a small batch of j-31 complemented by j-10b/c or whatever.they will have some 400-450 jets.

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[Vinod DX9]

IAF officially says Technology of Su-30MKI was transfarred to India
Question : If technology Su-30 was transfarred, then why no major success in fighter jet development? Why we could not make another Su-30 type heavy role fighter jet?

 

[Hindustani78]

Ministry of Defence
26-December, 2017 20:41 IST
Indian Air Force Conquers 'Seven Summits' After scaling of Mt Everest in 2005, IAF launched a unique and unprecedented series of mountaineering expedition 'Mission Seven Summits' with an aim to fly the tricolour and the IAF flag on the highest peaks in every continent.

A team comprising five IAF mountaineers, led by Gp Capt RC Tripathi, in the early hours of 26 Dec 17, has successfully scaled Mt Vinson in Antarctica, thus completing the assigned Mission. With the successful ascent of Mt Vinson, the IAF added another feather to its cap, by becoming the first organisation in India to achieve this unique feat.

The expedition to Mt Vinson was flagged off by Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa PVSM AVSM YSM VM ADC, Chief of the Air Staff, on 08 Dec 17 in a befitting ceremony.

IAF has promoted adventure activities among its personnel. In 2011, a women's expedition scaled Mt Everest successfully and in 2017 a joint IAF-BSF women camel expedition covered 1386 Km distance along western border in 47 days. IAF is also committed to the cause of environment and in Sep this year, IAF expedition to Mt Stok Kangri, restored the environment at base camp.

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[aditya10r]

Why we could not make another Su-30 type heavy role fighter jet?

Very easy answer,no accountability in HAL and ARDE.

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