Indian Air Force Light Combat Aircraft Tejas India's Second Supersonic Fighter

[vishnugupt]

We should immediately fire our defence minister! I mean look at the patheticness, HAL is making the world-class engine from raw materials and we are wasting money in Kaveri by giving billions to snecma. For an instance, ADA is so incompetent that HAL has to rescue it by getting FOC done for LCA. HAL is virtually heading every program of Aeronautics by designing/ developing aircrafts like TejasMK1a, MK2, AMCA. But I fail to understand what happened to its own programs ?? HTT-40, Sitara, LCH, RTA-70, all are either abandoned or running years behind the schedule and please don't ask about how much indigenous these products are by value.......
Come on, HAL is a screwdriver company with zero expertise in development which can't do even its primary job " assembling" and Raju is a 400-watt loudspeaker who can say anything

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

We should immediately fire our defence minister! I mean look at the patheticness, HAL is making the world-class engine from raw materials and we are wasting money in Kaveri by giving billions to snecma. For an instance, ADA is so incompetent that HAL has to rescue it by getting FOC done for LCA. HAL is virtually heading every program of Aeronautics by designing/ developing aircrafts like TejasMK1a, MK2, AMCA. But I fail to understand what happened to its own programs ?? HTT-40, Sitara, LCH, RTA-70, all are either abandoned or running years behind the schedule and please don't ask about how much indigenous these products are by value.......
Come on, HAL is a screwdriver company with zero expertise in development which can't do even its primary job " assembling" and Raju is a 400-watt loudspeaker who can say anything

Al31FP is not world class engine, It has bypass of 0.58 and TWR of 7.9. This is similar to M53 engine used in Mirage2000. The world class engine is Al41F which is used in Su35. Also, Al31FP is made due to Russian ToT in FY16. Kaveri did not get any ToT yet.

HTT40 and LCH are still going. HJT-36 Sitara was abandoned and the RTA was never even sanctioned. So, I don't see where HAL has done something wrong.

Don't say anything just like that. If you don't understand, please maintain silence.

 

[proud_indian]

Today all components defined in the scope of transfer of technology are made in India by HAL with 100% technology absorption for Airframe and engines,”

Read the blue part again and analyze it more rationally
They are making 100 percent of what was shared with them. What about the technology that wasn't shared with them?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Read the blue part again and analyze it more rationally
They are making 100 percent of what was shared with them. What about the technology that wasn't shared with them?

There can be more than one interpretation. You can read it as "the engine technology is fully absorbed as the engine technology was in the scope" or you can interpret it as "only those engine technology in scope was absorbed".

The ceremony in december 2017 of 50th engine being handed over and the statement that it is made from raw material stage is a dead give away. The other statements only serve to corroborate consistency in argument. All the statements match each other and hence can be considered as true that Al31FP is made in HAL from raw material.

You give me any reason to say that engine is not made in HAL since 2015 (FY16). You must have reason to say only part of the technology was in the scope while others were not. Also, why would India make an agreement for ToT to make useless parts while leaving out the important ones? This also you must explain

 

[proud_indian]

why would India make an agreement for ToT to make useless parts while leaving out the important ones? This also you must explain

What choices do we have? and BTW when did I say the things we are making are useless. Of course HAL acquired a lot of assembling/manufacturing know how building foreign designed aircrafts except of few technologies likes of modern jet engine which they are learning by developing one of their own.

 

[vishnugupt]

Al31FP is not world class engine, It has bypass of 0.58 and TWR of 7.9. This is similar to M53 engine used in Mirage2000. The world class engine is Al41F which is used in Su35. Also, Al31FP is made due to Russian ToT in FY16. Kaveri did not get any ToT yet.

HTT40 and LCH are still going. HJT-36 Sitara was abandoned and the RTA was never even sanctioned. So, I don't see where HAL has done something wrong.

Don't say anything just like that. If you don't understand, please maintain silence.

what is your emphasis by saying world class? Latest?
TOT happened when the contract was signed in 90s thought it was gradual absorption to know how and finally completed in 2016 as such nothing happened in FY16. CAG has criticised HAL for the same many times in past
Kaveri did not get any TOT because Government is fully aware of lies perpetuated by HAL and Raju or DRDO. The government knows what is the exactly mean when liers say "fully indigenous" that's why we are indirectly paying billions under the Rafale deal for Kaveri
Sitara abandoned why?? HTT-40 struggling for the same. LCH completion date was 2012 so tell me what is HAL inventing here?? they can't fit fully developed foreign systems. pathetic manufacturing speed of Tejas, Sukhoi and all and you are saying where HAL is wrong ...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

What choices do we have? and BTW when did I say the things we are making are useless. Of course HAL acquired a lot of assembling/manufacturing know how building foreign designed aircrafts except of few technologies likes of modern jet engine which they are learning by developing one of their own.

There is no reason to invent nonsensical excuses I have given strong points to say Al31FP is made in India. You have got no points other than insisting by repetition. India had no point getting planes without critical technology as that meant that India would not be able to fly it. Also, India was developing Tejas on its own by then and did not expect UPA to sabotage it badly. So, there was no reason to have gone with fake ToT. India had teh ability to make all other simpler parts like airframe, avionics etc. India even developed a lower thrust Kaveri in 2011 itself which was deemed as fit in dry state to be used in UAVs like Ghatak. There is no point getting fake ToT of useless parts in such cases

what is your emphasis by saying world class? Latest?
TOT happened when the contract was signed in 90s thought it was gradual absorption to know how and finally completed in 2016 as such nothing happened in FY16. CAG has criticised HAL for the same many times in past
Kaveri did not get any TOT because Government is fully aware of lies perpetuated by HAL and Raju or DRDO. The government knows what is the exactly mean when liers say "fully indigenous" that's why we are indirectly paying billions under the Rafale deal for Kaveri
Sitara abandoned why?? HTT-40 struggling for the same. LCH completion date was 2012 so tell me what is HAL inventing here?? they can't fit fully developed foreign systems. pathetic manufacturing speed of Tejas, Sukhoi and all and you are saying where HAL is wrong ...

World class means best in technology. Al31FP was 1980s engine. Russia was already developing Al41F to compete with USA and EU latest technology engines in 1990s. The engine of Al31f was already less efficient compared to USA engine due to low TWR. So, it was not world class even during time of signing contract in 2000.

Kaveri still is not getting any ToT but just audit and certification. France is world renowned in aerospace after USA and hence India decided to get certification. Except for some jingoists, the official sources and even french president Macron himself said that there was no ToT for engine.

Sitara could not be completed as Turbofan engine was a problem. Htt40 is not abandoned and is still going on. UPA had scuttled it but Modi revived the project Its first flight was in 2016 and second prototype was made in May 2017. So, it is just getting dveeloped. No need to be jingo over it.

LCH design was sanctioned in FY2007 and LCH had first flight in 2010. I don't know how can anyone complete a helicopter in 2 year time after first flight. LCH went into limited production in 2017. So, it is a fair timeline for a combat helicopter. Utility helicopters can be made faster.

That is why i said that you should keep your mouth shut instead of telling lies regularly.

 

[vishnugupt]

There is no reason to invent nonsensical excuses I have given strong points to say Al31FP is made in India. You have got no points other than insisting by repetition. India had no point getting planes without critical technology as that meant that India would not be able to fly it. Also, India was developing Tejas on its own by then and did not expect UPA to sabotage it badly. So, there was no reason to have gone with fake ToT. India had teh ability to make all other simpler parts like airframe, avionics etc. India even developed a lower thrust Kaveri in 2011 itself which was deemed as fit in dry state to be used in UAVs like Ghatak. There is no point getting fake ToT of useless parts in such cases


World class means best in technology. Al31FP was 1980s engine. Russia was already developing Al41F to compete with USA and EU latest technology engines in 1990s. The engine of Al31f was already less efficient compared to USA engine due to low TWR. So, it was not world class even during time of signing contract in 2000.

Kaveri still is not getting any ToT but just audit and certification. France is world renowned in aerospace after USA and hence India decided to get certification. Except for some jingoists, the official sources and even french president Macron himself said that there was no ToT for engine.

Sitara could not be completed as Turbofan engine was a problem. Htt40 is not abandoned and is still going on. UPA had scuttled it but Modi revived the project Its first flight was in 2016 and second prototype was made in May 2017. So, it is just getting dveeloped. No need to be jingo over it.

LCH design was sanctioned in FY2007 and LCH had first flight in 2010. I don't know how can anyone complete a helicopter in 2 year time after first flight. LCH went into limited production in 2017. So, it is a fair timeline for a combat helicopter. Utility helicopters can be made faster.

That is why i said that you should keep your mouth shut instead of telling lies regularly.

There wasn't any TOT for engine actually it was a maintenance deal for high operational availability
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...eal_Excludes_Technology_Transfer#.W5jx4idX40M
If HAL is making everything specially engine then why this happened?
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...eal_Excludes_Technology_Transfer#.W5jwwidX40M

 

[Chinmoy]

@vishnugupt ............ No reason to get hyper. Lets have a look at what HAL does with AL-31FP.

The Sukhoi Engine Division at Koraput, a unit of HAL's vast network, has the unique distinction of being one amongst the few Aero Engine manufacturers in the world.

The spectrum of manufacturing facilities extends literally from the production of nuts and bolts to discs, shafts, blades, forgings and castings - all that are required to make an Aero Engine right from the Raw materials.

This spectrum is further enlarged to include overhaul of Aero Engines for the Su-30MKi aircraft and supply of spares required during service

https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

Basically we are just doing a screw driver job with AL-31. Russians have given us a Jigsaw puzzle. We know what would be the dimension of specific part of that puzzle and how to make that part under ToT. But we don't know what would be its effect if we change the dimension and then how to fit it in the puzzle. We have got ToT for parts manufacturing, not engine manufacturing.

Now Kaveri is and independent project by DRDO where HAL is not playing any part. Kaveri is been undertaken to understand the puzzle which we have not understood under AL-31. With Kaveri we would know what would happen if we change dimension of one part of Jigsaw and how to accommodate it further in the puzzle.

So Kaveri is enhancing our knowledge on engine tech, whereas AL-31 is enhancing our knowledge in engineering.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

There wasn't any TOT for engine actually it was a maintenance deal for high operational availability
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...eal_Excludes_Technology_Transfer#.W5jx4idX40M
If HAL is making everything specially engine then why this happened?
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18...eal_Excludes_Technology_Transfer#.W5jwwidX40M

What are you saying? India has got technology transfer. But what is being asked is licensed production of the nuts and bolts which has not been obtained. Licensed production implies that India is given the IPR of the items, not technology. It is like JK Rowling giving me the IPR to print Harry Potter books. Even if she does not give me IPR, I still can print them as the books are available in the market and there is no special font requirement. Simple copy and paste of the books available in market would be enough.

The case with engine is that it isn't simple copy-paste but also involves special techniques and alloying, heating, processing etc which can't be visible to the end user. That is being given in ToT.

Russia has not given any license for making nuts, fasteners etc but that is because they don't come under technology but under license

@vishnugupt ............ No reason to get hyper. Lets have a look at what HAL does with AL-31FP.



https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

Basically we are just doing a screw driver job with AL-31. Russians have given us a Jigsaw puzzle. We know what would be the dimension of specific part of that puzzle and how to make that part under ToT. But we don't know what would be its effect if we change the dimension and then how to fit it in the puzzle. We have got ToT for parts manufacturing, not engine manufacturing.

Now Kaveri is and independent project by DRDO where HAL is not playing any part. Kaveri is been undertaken to understand the puzzle which we have not understood under AL-31. With Kaveri we would know what would happen if we change dimension of one part of Jigsaw and how to accommodate it further in the puzzle.

So Kaveri is enhancing our knowledge on engine tech, whereas AL-31 is enhancing our knowledge in engineering.

Russia gave know-how, not know-why. Yes, it is engineering knowledge what Russia gave, not research one.

 

[vishnugupt]

@vishnugupt ............ No reason to get hyper. Lets have a look at what HAL does with AL-31FP.

this is called being a Hyper

That is why i said that you should keep your mouth shut instead of telling lies regularly.

https://hal-india.co.in/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

Basically we are just doing a screw driver job with AL-31. Russians have given us a Jigsaw puzzle. We know what would be the dimension of specific part of that puzzle and how to make that part under ToT. But we don't know what would be its effect if we change the dimension and then how to fit it in the puzzle. We have got ToT for parts manufacturing, not engine manufacturing.

Now Kaveri is and independent project by DRDO where HAL is not playing any part. Kaveri is been undertaken to understand the puzzle which we have not understood under AL-31. With Kaveri we would know what would happen if we change dimension of one part of Jigsaw and how to accommodate it further in the puzzle.

So Kaveri is enhancing our knowledge on engine tech, whereas AL-31 is enhancing our knowledge in engineering.

This is what I was trying to tell him. HAL has no capability to build an engine in-house if they had, then MOD must have asked their expertise for Kaveri

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is what I was trying to tell him. HAL has no capability to build an engine in-house if they had, then MOD must have asked their expertise for Kaveri

HAL makes Al31FP engine and can make any number of it as it knows how to forge each part of the engine. I never claimed that HAL knows the function and working of engines and its parts. HAL can make this particular engine of Al31FP. HAL could also make R25B engine for MiG21 Bison in 1980.

There is a difference between knowing to make an engine vs ability to design an engine. It is like I knowing to write Harry Potter book by copying from original copy but I am not capable of writing a new novel myself

 

[Raj Malhotra]

HAL has a habit of putting out patently false and clearly manipulated figures

Comparing percentage of imported and Indigenous components in mumbers mean nothing

Let us take an example:-

Imported one radar and HAL makes Indigenously 9 screws

HAL will claim Indigenization percentage is 90%

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

HAL has a habit of putting out patently false and clearly manipulated figures

Comparing percentage of imported and Indigenous components in mumbers mean nothing

Let us take an example:-

Imported one radar and HAL makes Indigenously 9 screws

HAL will claim Indigenization percentage is 90%

This time HAL has said clearly that each and every part is indigenous. So, it is 100% indigenous Al31FP engine in whatever manner you look at it.

 

[Enquirer]

HAL has a habit of putting out patently false and clearly manipulated figures

Comparing percentage of imported and Indigenous components in mumbers mean nothing

Let us take an example:-

Imported one radar and HAL makes Indigenously 9 screws

HAL will claim Indigenization percentage is 90%

The percentage indigenization is always by VALUE of the components NOT number of components NOT weight of components NOT volume of components!

If radar costs 10% of the total value, then it's 10% import!

 

[Enquirer]

This time HAL has said clearly that each and every part is indigenous. So, it is 100% indigenous Al31FP engine in whatever manner you look at it.

If the raw materials (alloys) are coming from Russia, then how exactly is it 100% indigeniztion?

 

[indus]

HAL makes Al31FP engine and can make any number of it as it knows how to forge each part of the engine. I never claimed that HAL knows the function and working of engines and its parts. HAL can make this particular engine of Al31FP. HAL could also make R25B engine for MiG21 Bison in 1980.

There is a difference between knowing to make an engine vs ability to design an engine. It is like I knowing to write Harry Potter book by copying from original copy but I am not capable of writing a new novel myself

Exactly. That means JK Rowling can write any number of new novels based on Harry Potter coz its her idea and her effort. But your knowledge would be limited to printing copies of the available edition. By making copies you wont ever be able to know how to write a novel urself.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If the raw materials (alloys) are coming from Russia, then how exactly is it 100% indigeniztion?

The raw materials are unprocessed or standard off the shelf materials which come under mining department. Hence with regards to manufacturing including forgings and processing, it is 100% indigenous. HAL is not a mining company and hence we don't consider mining activity.

Exactly. That means JK Rowling can write any number of new novels based on Harry Potter coz its her idea and her effort. But your knowledge would be limited to printing copies of the available edition. By making copies you wont ever be able to know how to write a novel urself.

This is true. But we can make Al31FP as per requirements in any number, though we may not be able to develop other engines using the knowledge. So, India can make Su30 planes on its own at least. That is all that matters

 

[Enquirer]

The raw materials are unprocessed or standard off the shelf materials which come under mining department. Hence with regards to manufacturing including forgings and processing, it is 100% indigenous. HAL is not a mining company and hence we don't consider mining activity.

Dude! Your posts are so full of BS!!! You don't know what you don't know!!! You're constantly making up stuff!!

Metallurgy is the key technological advancement that India is still struggling at!! Until recently even the India made ships required imports of 'steel alloy' from Russia!!!

Russia sends raw materials (alloys) that's a Russian trade secret - India has no idea how/why that alloy is made/used!! They just use it!! The 'handling' techniques for that alloy is shared with HAL - that's all!!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Dude! Your posts are so full of BS!!! You don't know what you don't know!!! You're constantly making up stuff!!

Metallurgy is the key technological advancement that India is still struggling at!! Until recently even the India made ships required imports of 'steel alloy' from Russia!!!

Russia sends raw materials (alloys) that's a Russian trade secret - India has no idea how/why that alloy is made/used!! They just use it!! The 'handling' techniques for that alloy is shared with HAL - that's all!!

Entire engine component processing including forgings are made in HAL. There is no Russian supply in it. Raw materials are only mining sector. That is why it is called "raw materials" - because it is raw.

India has got ToT for the alloying process and forging of blades, powder metallurgy, isotthermal forge etc: