Indian Air Force Light Combat Aircraft Tejas India's Second Supersonic Fighter

[proud_indian]

This was confirmed by officially by HAL. It does not take a genius to read news. Kshithij or anyone else can read news. Here is the source that Su30 is made in HAL from raw material:

HAL's Sukhoi Engine Division hands over 50th AL31FP engine to IAF

You should change your name from proud-Indian to Proud_idiot. You should first do some basic research of the point I made instead of acting like a loudmouth.

See the above guy has given the source for the same. In fact, there have been confirmations from IAF official twitter handle too that Su30 received full ToT. I can't just get the tweet now. But the news of Su30 engine being made from raw materials is readily available on google.

HAL website also says that HAL Koraput is one of the few units in the world that makes aero engines:
https://hal-india.co.in/Engine Division Koraput/M__138

Can you guyz point me to the "100 percent" part?

 

[proud_indian]

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=169891

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Can you guyz point me to the "100 percent" part?

The quote clearly says that the engines have been made from raw material phase:

The 50th AL31FP engine manufactured from the raw material stage by the Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL (Koraput) has been handed over to the IAF in Delhi as part of the 70th year celebrations of the India Russia diplomatic relationship.

“The AL31FP engine powers the Su30 MKI and has been manufactured from the raw material stage by HAL. All the components, including heavy forgings, are manufactured at HAL,” said T Suvarna Raju, CMD.

He handed over documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of the Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.

On the occasion, a coffee table book to commemorate 70 years of co-operation between HAL and Russian companies was also released by A. K. Gupta, Secretary (DP).

Speaking on the occasion Gupta said India has received whole-hearted support for the Russian platforms and such support was important for strengthening bilateral ties.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=169891

Yes, of the 42000 parts, 10500 i imported from Russia. These include about 5500 raw material blocks like titanium, aluminium etc and another 5000 parts like fasteners, nuts and bolts which are also to be imported. None of the critical items is imported. India has the ability to make the nuts and bolts while the raw material comes under mining technically. India is importing these as they are part of the contract and the imports serve as "license/royalty fees".

This does not mean that India is importing Su30 engine.

 

[proud_indian]

The quote clearly says that the engines have been made from raw material phase:




Yes, of the 42000 parts, 10500 i imported from Russia. These include about 5500 raw material blocks like titanium, aluminium etc and another 5000 parts like fasteners, nuts and bolts which are also to be imported. None of the critical items is imported. India has the ability to make the nuts and bolts while the raw material comes under mining technically. India is importing these as they are part of the contract and the imports serve as "license/royalty fees".

This does not mean that India is importing Su30 engine.

It doesn't mean either that we are making the engine 100% here in India as this guy claims and I am quite sure among those 10500 parts we are importing some sophisticated engine parts as well that no one will part away with.

 

[Pulkit]

The quote clearly says that the engines have been made from raw material phase:




Yes, of the 42000 parts, 10500 i imported from Russia. These include about 5500 raw material blocks like titanium, aluminium etc and another 5000 parts like fasteners, nuts and bolts which are also to be imported. None of the critical items is imported. India has the ability to make the nuts and bolts while the raw material comes under mining technically. India is importing these as they are part of the contract and the imports serve as "license/royalty fees".

This does not mean that India is importing Su30 engine.

Just a query as even i am not sure of it no one can be....

Are we making the core of the engine for Su30 inhouse i believe not. Its not just raw materials but few major assemblies and sub assemblies we are importing from them.

hope i understood what you were saying correctly.

 

[proud_indian]

Just a query as even i am not sure of it no one can be....

Are we making the core of the engine for Su30 inhouse i believe not. Its not just raw materials but few major assemblies and sub assemblies we are importing from them.

hope i understood what you were saying correctly.

This is what people need to understand that they are not sharing us the know how of their most exotic technologies like the engine core they have acquired after decades of research.

 

[Pulkit]

This is what people need to understand that they are not sharing us the know how of their most exotic technologies like the engine core they have acquired after decades of research.

Why would they? If we get that tech of our own we wont even....

Its like you have all the frosting and cream... but no cake... lol

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It doesn't mean either that we are making the engine 100% here in India as this guy claims and I am quite sure among those 10500 parts we are importing some sophisticated engine parts as well that no one will part away with.

Just a query as even i am not sure of it no one can be....

Are we making the core of the engine for Su30 inhouse i believe not. Its not just raw materials but few major assemblies and sub assemblies we are importing from them.

hope i understood what you were saying correctly.

It has been stated very clearly that the 50th engine from raw material stage was handed over on December 2017. Su30 engine was made in India for over a decade and each year about 12 Su30 is made currently. Earlier, it was 16 Su30 annually. Each Su30 needs 2 engines each, so total 24 engines per year is made.

How does it make sense to say that 50th engine was handed over in December 2017? Al31FP engine was made in HAL even in 2011. So, how is 50th engine made in 2017 end? They even organised an event like party for this ocassion and held press conference! The only explanation is that engines were made in India for some time now but since 2015, they have been fully indigenised the engines.

The explicit statement from the HAL chief that everything from nuts, bolts, blades are made in India should clear your doubt. Russia has given full ToT to India in this regard.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is what people need to understand that they are not sharing us the know how of their most exotic technologies like the engine core they have acquired after decades of research.

Why would they? If we get that tech of our own we wont even....

Its like you have all the frosting and cream... but no cake... lol

Russia is sharing the Su30 Engine technology with India. But they are not willing to share their latest engine - AL41F of Su35. Just because western countries don't share technology does not mean Russia is also similar in nature. Russia has given India advanced technology like cryogenic engine ( for study and reverse engineering), given Brahmos technology, technology to make MiG21 etc.

There is one more reason for Russia to share Su30 technology with India - in 1990s when Russia was bankrupt, it was India that funded the development of Su30 and kept Russian aerospace industry alive. Su30 development helped Russia keep its aerospace industry alive, develop planes like Su35 and further advance to Su57. If India had not funded Russia back then, then its military position would have weakened severely today. So, Russia is having a sense of goodwill towards India for this and hence handed over Su30 technology as a return payment.

 

[Kshithij]

@Dovah
You locked a thread but left the vermins loose , who always pretend to be innocent as a new born baby while spewing venom!!

This guy's on my 'ignore' list. But once in a while I do the mistake of exercising 'show ignored content' and lo behold I regret instantly!

We all know ho is the filth that polluted the older LCA thread and made it to be locked.

 

[Kshithij]

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=169891

This is what people need to understand that they are not sharing us the know how of their most exotic technologies like the engine core they have acquired after decades of research.

Why would they? If we get that tech of our own we wont even....

Its like you have all the frosting and cream... but no cake... lol

The point I am speaking is of engines, not full Su30. So, it is indigenous and has been stated openly so by HAL chief. So, 75% of Su30 does not apply here.

About why Russia gave technology to India, there may be several reasons like what @Advaidhya Tiwari said above. Russia is also known to have given lot of technology to civilian infrastructure like BHEL, BEL etc. Just like USA has been giving technology freely to NATO states, Russia has been giving technology to India.

Just because you don't understand why Russia would give technology to India does not mean it is not the case. Regardless of your liking or understanding, Russia has given ToT of very critical items to India and Al31FP engine is one of them. Period.

 

[Enquirer]

We all know ho is the filth that polluted the older LCA thread and made it to be locked.

The filth is initiated by the likes of you and ersakthivel! (as you did on this thread today!)

But somehow thugs like you and ersakthivel think no one should challenge you even when you're spewing filth on the forum! One has to wonder why such thugs were cultivated! It requires a special species lacking any shame to spew filth and then then point fingers at others!

Wonder where @Pulkit @Shakti Malik are sleeping. Must be pretty cozy under the rock that they don't dare raise voice against the 'forum ke gunde'!

 

[proud_indian]

The point I am speaking is of engines, not full Su30. So, it is indigenous and has been stated openly so by HAL chief. So, 75% of Su30 does not apply here.

About why Russia gave technology to India, there may be several reasons like what @Advaidhya Tiwari said above. Russia is also known to have given lot of technology to civilian infrastructure like BHEL, BEL etc. Just like USA has been giving technology freely to NATO states, Russia has been giving technology to India.

Just because you don't understand why Russia would give technology to India does not mean it is not the case. Regardless of your liking or understanding, Russia has given ToT of very critical items to India and Al31FP engine is one of them. Period.

You must back up your claims with credible source like I posted above not just making tall claims. You are saying we are importing 25 percent of SU-30 parts from Russia but making 100 percent of engine here. Do you really think any sane person would believe that.

 

[Kshithij]

The filth is initiated by the likes of you and ersakthivel! (as you did on this thread today!)

But somehow thugs like you and ersakthivel think no one should challenge you even when you're spewing filth on the forum! One has to wonder why such thugs were cultivated! It requires a special species of shamelessness to spew filth and then then point fingers at others!

Wonder where @Pulkit @Shakti Malik are sleeping. Must be pretty cozy under the rock that they don't dare raise voice against the 'forum ke gunde'!

Who started calling people vermin after quoting their messages?

You locked a thread but left the vermins loose , who always pretend to be innocent as a new born baby while spewing venom!!

Was it me? Anyways, unlike poor @ersakthivel , whom you tortured relentlessly, I will not reply to your insanity and encourage it further. Don't keep your hopes high that I will be around to play with you. I have better work.

 

[Kshithij]

You must back up your claims with credible source like I posted above not just making tall claims. You are saying we are importing 25 percent of SU-30 parts from Russia but making 100 percent of engine here. Do you really think any sane person would believe that.

When you have the words from HAL chief and even a ceremony organised for supplying 50th engine, what exactly is your problem?

Su30 as Advaidhya told, has licensing requirement. It is like I having harry potter book but not printing it in my own press to sell it but instead giving JKR a royalty by getting the books have her autographs.

Licensing requirement is not same as lack of technology. It is only a matter of trust and good faith. That is why the 25% parts being imported are minor parts and not critical technology. India can breach trust and stop buying Russian parts and still be able to make Su30 here. But, unless there is dire needs to make Su30 inhouse in large quantity due to imminent war, India will not do so.

 

[Enquirer]

Who started calling people vermin after quoting their messages?

Was it me? Anyways, unlike @ersakthivel , I will not reply to your insanity and encourage it further

Perhaps you should re-read your own message that I quoted - even highlighted relevant parts of your 'exemplary work' in bright red!

I am sick of thugs terrorizing the forum & sick of few others living like sheep!

 

[proud_indian]

When you have the words from HAL chief and even a ceremony organised for supplying 50th engine, what exactly is your problem?

Su30 as Advaidhya told, has licensing requirement. It is like I having harry potter book but not printing it in my own press to sell it but instead giving JKR a royalty by getting the books have her autographs.

Licensing requirement is not same as lack of technology. It is only a matter of trust and good faith. That is why the 25% parts being imported are minor parts and not critical technology. India can breach trust and stop buying Russian parts and still be able to make Su30 here. But, unless there is dire needs to make Su30 inhouse in large quantity due to imminent war, India will not do so.

Again and again you are just spinning theories but haven't put anything substantial to back up your tall claims.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again and again you are just spinning theories but haven't put anything substantial to back up your tall claims.

This is what anyone with knowledge says. It is exactly what I said above:

Yes, of the 42000 parts, 10500 i imported from Russia. These include about 5500 raw material blocks like titanium, aluminium etc and another 5000 parts like fasteners, nuts and bolts which are also to be imported. None of the critical items is imported.

Here is the source (Ajai Shukla):

Air force to get full Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019

Walking along the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) production line at its Nashik plant is a good way to realize how gargantuan the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter is. Yet, its sheer size, the sleekness of its lines and the menacing “bird-of-prey” droop of its nose are not why this fighter is the backbone of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The Su-30MKI is pure performance --- it is astonishingly agile, a favourite in aerobatics displays; and its 8-tonne armament payload makes it a formidable multi-role aircraft. It has the missiles to protect itself while flying on a mission, the bombs and rockets to comprehensively pulverize a target, the electronics to deceive enemy radars, and can return home while warding off enemy fighters.

The IAF is keen to quickly induct the 272 Su-30MKI fighters it has on order, especially since the Rafale contract remains uncertain. But HAL --- which delivered an impressive 15 fighters last year --- says completion would be possible only by about 2019, a two-and-a-half-year delay from the 2016-17 target that was set when the contract was signed with Russia in 2000.

A total of 222 Su-30MKIs are to be built in Nashik. Till date, 149 have been delivered to the IAF. HAL will have to continue building 15 fighters per year to deliver the remaining 73 aircraft in 5 years.

The delay stems from the IAF’s wish to make the Su-30MKI the high-performance fighter that it eventually turned out to be. Unsatisfied with the Su-30 initially supplied by Russia, the IAF demanded improved aerodynamic performance. Russia added canards and a thrust-vectoring engine, the AL-31FP, which could push the fighter in multiple directions, adding agility. All this took time and Sukhoi transferred the technology two-and-a-half years late.

Business Standard was granted access to HAL’s Nashik division, the birthplace of multiple Russian fighters that have given teeth to the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the 1970s. This factory was set up in 1964 to build the MiG-21 E7FL, now retired, followed by another variant, the MiG-21M, then the MiG-21BIS. Later, HAL Nashik built the MiG-27, and then upgraded 123 MiG-21BIS fighters into the BISON, which is still in service. Finally, it upgraded 40 MiG-27s, an entirely indigenous upgrade that has kept the aging fighter in service till today.

HAL’s Nashik unit is still called the MiG Complex --- ironic, given that it builds a Sukhoi fighter, the greatest rival of Mikoyan, builder of the legendary MiGs. The Su-30 variants, Russia’s most successful recent design, have wiped out Mikoyan from the global marketplace. Compared to some 800 Sukhoi-27 and Sukhoi-30 variants bought by the air forces of Russia, China, India, Ukraine, Malaysia, Algeria, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Vietnam, only a handful of MiG fighters find customers today.

Yet India remains a Mikoyan loyalist --- of sorts. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is upgrading its fleet of 60-odd MiG-29S fighters; while the Indian Navy has bought 45 MiG-29K/KUB fighters for its aircraft carriers, a $2 billion purchase that has breathed life into the fading Russian company.

Yet this is small change compared to the massive order of 272 Su-30MKIs, which started out as a bargain at $30 million apiece, but which are now priced at $75 million each.

Business Standard spoke to HAL officials to find out why prices have risen despite an ongoing indigenisation programme that has met all its targets. The reason, it emerges, lies in the nature of the manufacturing contract signed with Sukhoi, which was to see a progressive enhancement of Indian content through four phases. Yet, even though Phase IV has recently been achieved, this provides for only limited indigenization. While Sukhoi was bound to transfer technology for building the fighter, the contract mandates that all raw materials --- including titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc --- must be sourced from Russia.

This means that, of the 43,000 items that go into the Sukhoi-30MKI, some 5,800 consist of large metal plates, castings and forgings that must contractually be provided by Russia. HAL then transforms the raw material into aircraft components, using the manufacturing technology transferred by Sukhoi.

That results in massive wastage of metal. For example, a 486 kilogramme titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg.

Furthermore, the contract stipulates that standard components like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets --- a total of 7,146 items --- must all be sourced from Russia.

The reason for this, explain HAL officials, is that manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.

“For raw materials production to be commercially viable, India’s aerospace companies would need to produce in larger volumes. That means they must become global suppliers, as a part of a major aerospace company’s global supply chain. Licensed manufacture for our own needs does not create adequate demand,” says Daljeet Singh, HAL Nashik’s manufacturing head.

Still, HAL builds about 10,000 of the 30,000 fabricated components in each fighter. A significant percentage of this is outsourced to private sector vendors in aerospace hubs like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Pune and Coimbatore.

Once the last of the 222 Su-30MKIs to be built in Nashik roll off the lines, this facility will build the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which HAL and Sukhoi will jointly develop. An estimated 214 FGFAs are planned to be built here.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again and again you are just spinning theories but haven't put anything substantial to back up your tall claims.

There are more material to say that Su30 has absorbed engine technology fully:

HAL To Complete 222 Su-30MKI Manufacturing Order By 2019-20

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will require four more years to manufacture the remaining 48 Su-30MKI aircraft out of a total order of 222 fighters placed with it by the Indian Air Force.

“HAL has produced 174 Su-30 MKI aircraft out of order for 222 aircraft till Mar 2016. The complete technology has been absorbed by HAL and current orders are likely to be liquidated by 2019-20,” T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL said in an interview to a web portal, Bharatshakti Wednesday.

HAL last month had stated that it has produced 12 Su-30 MKI aircraft from raw material phase during the fiscal year 2015-16. With the current rate of production, it is possible to finish the production of the remaining 48 aircraft of 222 ordered by 2020.

Irkut Corporation, during the Aero India Airshow in February last year had said in a statement that it would complete deliveries of Su-30MKI aircraft kits to HAL by the end of 2015.

SU-30 MKI aircraft is being manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia. The licence manufacturing is being carried in four phases, the last stage of which includes manufacture from the raw material stage.

“HAL has manufactured approximately 39000 components in airframe and 1015 aggregates. Further HAL has manufactured around 5600 components for Engines by absorbing 133 new technologies. Even the Casting & Forgings required for engine has been mastered by HAL within India. Today all components defined in the scope of transfer of technology are made in India by HAL with 100% technology absorption for Airframe and engines,” he said.

HAL has manufactured parts of Su-30MKIs from the raw material stage with complete transfer of technology from IRKUT Corporation under Phase IV of the assembly. Nashik facility of the firm is partially indigenizing its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India.

India and Russia signed a deal on the licensed production of 140 Su-30 MKI aircraft, 920 engines and 140 sets of airborne equipment in 2000. These aircraft were to be delivered by HAL in four phases by 2017-18 with each phase progressively increasing the level of indigenization.

However, in March 2006, the Ministry of Defence advanced the delivery of these aircraft to 2014-15 to counter a sharp fall in combat aircraft available, due to crashes and obsolescence.

The Indian MoD placed an additional order for 82 aircraft with HAL, taking the total number of indigenously produced aircraft to 222, to be delivered between 2002-03 and 2016-17.

 

[proud_indian]

This is what anyone with knowledge says. It is exactly what I said above:


Here is the source (Ajai Shukla):

Air force to get full Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019

Walking along the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) production line at its Nashik plant is a good way to realize how gargantuan the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter is. Yet, its sheer size, the sleekness of its lines and the menacing “bird-of-prey” droop of its nose are not why this fighter is the backbone of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The Su-30MKI is pure performance --- it is astonishingly agile, a favourite in aerobatics displays; and its 8-tonne armament payload makes it a formidable multi-role aircraft. It has the missiles to protect itself while flying on a mission, the bombs and rockets to comprehensively pulverize a target, the electronics to deceive enemy radars, and can return home while warding off enemy fighters.

The IAF is keen to quickly induct the 272 Su-30MKI fighters it has on order, especially since the Rafale contract remains uncertain. But HAL --- which delivered an impressive 15 fighters last year --- says completion would be possible only by about 2019, a two-and-a-half-year delay from the 2016-17 target that was set when the contract was signed with Russia in 2000.

A total of 222 Su-30MKIs are to be built in Nashik. Till date, 149 have been delivered to the IAF. HAL will have to continue building 15 fighters per year to deliver the remaining 73 aircraft in 5 years.

The delay stems from the IAF’s wish to make the Su-30MKI the high-performance fighter that it eventually turned out to be. Unsatisfied with the Su-30 initially supplied by Russia, the IAF demanded improved aerodynamic performance. Russia added canards and a thrust-vectoring engine, the AL-31FP, which could push the fighter in multiple directions, adding agility. All this took time and Sukhoi transferred the technology two-and-a-half years late.

Business Standard was granted access to HAL’s Nashik division, the birthplace of multiple Russian fighters that have given teeth to the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the 1970s. This factory was set up in 1964 to build the MiG-21 E7FL, now retired, followed by another variant, the MiG-21M, then the MiG-21BIS. Later, HAL Nashik built the MiG-27, and then upgraded 123 MiG-21BIS fighters into the BISON, which is still in service. Finally, it upgraded 40 MiG-27s, an entirely indigenous upgrade that has kept the aging fighter in service till today.

HAL’s Nashik unit is still called the MiG Complex --- ironic, given that it builds a Sukhoi fighter, the greatest rival of Mikoyan, builder of the legendary MiGs. The Su-30 variants, Russia’s most successful recent design, have wiped out Mikoyan from the global marketplace. Compared to some 800 Sukhoi-27 and Sukhoi-30 variants bought by the air forces of Russia, China, India, Ukraine, Malaysia, Algeria, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Vietnam, only a handful of MiG fighters find customers today.

Yet India remains a Mikoyan loyalist --- of sorts. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is upgrading its fleet of 60-odd MiG-29S fighters; while the Indian Navy has bought 45 MiG-29K/KUB fighters for its aircraft carriers, a $2 billion purchase that has breathed life into the fading Russian company.

Yet this is small change compared to the massive order of 272 Su-30MKIs, which started out as a bargain at $30 million apiece, but which are now priced at $75 million each.

Business Standard spoke to HAL officials to find out why prices have risen despite an ongoing indigenisation programme that has met all its targets. The reason, it emerges, lies in the nature of the manufacturing contract signed with Sukhoi, which was to see a progressive enhancement of Indian content through four phases. Yet, even though Phase IV has recently been achieved, this provides for only limited indigenization. While Sukhoi was bound to transfer technology for building the fighter, the contract mandates that all raw materials --- including titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc --- must be sourced from Russia.

This means that, of the 43,000 items that go into the Sukhoi-30MKI, some 5,800 consist of large metal plates, castings and forgings that must contractually be provided by Russia. HAL then transforms the raw material into aircraft components, using the manufacturing technology transferred by Sukhoi.

That results in massive wastage of metal. For example, a 486 kilogramme titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg.

Furthermore, the contract stipulates that standard components like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets --- a total of 7,146 items --- must all be sourced from Russia.

The reason for this, explain HAL officials, is that manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.

“For raw materials production to be commercially viable, India’s aerospace companies would need to produce in larger volumes. That means they must become global suppliers, as a part of a major aerospace company’s global supply chain. Licensed manufacture for our own needs does not create adequate demand,” says Daljeet Singh, HAL Nashik’s manufacturing head.

Still, HAL builds about 10,000 of the 30,000 fabricated components in each fighter. A significant percentage of this is outsourced to private sector vendors in aerospace hubs like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Pune and Coimbatore.

Once the last of the 222 Su-30MKIs to be built in Nashik roll off the lines, this facility will build the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which HAL and Sukhoi will jointly develop. An estimated 214 FGFAs are planned to be built here.

Again there is no mention of HAL making AL-31 FP engine 100 percent from raw material. No matter whatever the way you put it, the fact remains the same.