India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

[warrior monk]

80 MW
http://thediplomat.com/2013/07/indias-first-ballistic-missile-sub-to-begin-sea-trials/
85 MW
http://thefederalist-gary.blogspot.in/2012/08/india-to-test-1st-nuclear-sub.html?m=1
96 MW rating was given by one of our forum members, not able to recall..@warrior monk?

I have mentioned it is between 80 to 90 Mwt because GoI might not give the official figures anyways lets not deviate from the topic.

 

[Sam Biswas]

India needs to seriously rethink MMRCA situation and Rafale. First, France and Russia are exploiting India's tough situation and bilking every penny (rupee and paisa) out of India in order to fix their dilapidated economy. If India acquires only 36 Rafale in next six –ten years (if lucky) for $7-10 billion, how it is going to solve Indian jet crisis? Dussault is a small time operator and makes money by selling a few jets with incredibly large margin of profit. They do not (and not capable of) want to make 100s of jets for India. They are French and do not know how to work hard and mass produce, India needs hundreds of fighter jets and with this kind of price it will go bankrupt, at least little money for other projects. USA is ready to (and capable of) help India because of its China problem. If Boeing builds F/A-18 or F/A-18E/F in India, India can get Boeing to modify the jet according to IAF's requirement and get the source codes of the software and modify.

At a price of about ~$50 million per jet; India will be able to order at least 200 jets for the price of about 36 Rafales. These are combat proven jets and every US aircraft carrier uses only these jets for combat whereas, Rafale, Su35, Typhoon have never been to any serious combat except for chasing some terrorists with AK-47 in Africa not any Air Force. Thus, why F/A-18 Super Hornets will not be enough for IAF's mission to defend against Pak and China baffles me. India will be foolish not to take advantage of the Boeing offer and solve its jet problem for pennies and long term that will allow India to use leftover funds in developing Tejas MK1A/MKII as well as FGFA with Russia. Second these jets are proven for aircraft carrier like no other jet in the world. Why to waste money on unproven jets that look good on paper and from countries that are snobby and difficult to deal with Shylocks and behave like sharks?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dassault had a lot of hidden costs, now here are some facts abt this particular IGA/MoU

1. as per DM of India the best price that India can give is abt Rs 65000 crore which in a way comes to 9.7 billion for 36 planes thus in a way US$ 270 per plane,
2. Dassault is asking for 30% more, which comes to roughly 12.61 billion or US$ 350 million a plane,
3. This price includes spares, and maintenance for 40 years. and of course weapons

Now these 350 million a plane are supposed to be the price that France sells to AdlA , So for 126 planes for MMRCA it would come to MINIMUM US$ 44 billion dollars, Some believed that the total MMRCA deal would come to US$ 12 billlion, lol

Now this no 44 billion has the same ToT as requested 50%, Of these 36 planes are in flyway condition, and as per Dassault making in India would ramp up the cost, (cost of production, cost of setting up lines, Transfer of some shitty tech) that would easily take the deal close to US$ 50 billion for 126 planes,. Roughly coming to US$ 400 million a plane.for 40 years of service and maintenance.

Even what India wants is Rs 270 per plane, so the min price that would have ever come (if dassault accepts this price which they say is less) US$ 34 billion without any lines in india, or make in india or without any ToT

Now compare the earlier figure touted by many Rafail experts 10-12 billion dollars to this new wonderful figure (min 34 and max 50 billion)

Still people think we should sign the deal?
In this price, we can buy entire Sukhoi corp, incl of Tech and planes etc, and start supplying the world with Su-35S and PAKFA..

No one is talking.of spares and maintainance for 40/years

All are talking about spares and maintainance of 5 to 10/years

The initial years where the maintainance will be low and need for spares will be less

Also we won't have time under the contract wether it really requires overhaul or not

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Tss Tss Tss.
Some another false affirmations.my dear Smestarz.

No request in the MMRCA of twin engine. If Gripen is indeed very light, a F16 bk60 has a very powerfull engine, largely enough for that purpose.

YES, You're right on L1. EF and Rafale were declared OK, and Rafale win on L1.

The reality is that all the other planes FAILED to reach perf needed. Hot temperature and high altitude runaway test perf were it seems very hard to obtain or unreachable for some plane (SH 18 and F16 ie). As time to replace engine for exemple.

The main thing is rafale was allowed entry after closing of the bids that too withdrawing mirage and

The L1 turned out to be H1/eventually

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Here are the prices given to the French Senate for 2015 :
- Rafale B 73 M€ TTC (TTC = with taxes. without taxe, it is nearly the price in $)
- Rafale C 68 M€ TTC ( "" )
- Rafale M 78 M€ TTC ( "" )

Without support, training, weapons, spares, air base implementation, test bench, ToT (Even if it is an aff the shelf sell, there is ToT ...), Offset....

You have to add all of that for India + customer tuning (new laser pod, helmet (Or taking the one Qatar choose... surely not Isaeli's) + adaptation of your local medium range missile + ???

But dasault bid in mmrca taking all these into account

50% tot not in present deal

Long term spares not in mmrca

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I think a lot need to change in how India buys military equipment.

A lot is already happening, but the pace needs to be quickened.

India will not survive without a sound military industrial complex. The current PSUs are inadequate. The MIC needs to be driven by private sector.

If iaf is ready to spend 12 billion on 36 rafales and not willing to spend

1200 crores on HAL tejas assembly line

Not willing to spend enough on su30mki spares

What can Indian mic do ?

Govt has still not released funds for amca ?/

Why blame Indian mic and psus ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

India will need to build a Rafale simulation center. France has two of them. This is very expensive .. probably in the _€ 100 -200 million range. Qatar and Egypt seem to have ordered this. Lot of technical info available there :
http://www.sogitec.com/pdf/INTER28A/InterActions_28_EN.pdf

You mean 1/simulator foe each rafail?

 

[Tactical Frog]

You mean 1/simulator foe each rafail?

Hmm. You want to talk with Bon Plan for the technical details ! He is much more informed than I am. The way I understand it, such simulation centers have 4 networked simulators, each perfect copies of a Rafale cockpit. With 4 cabins you can create room for 4 pilots with two twin-seats Rafale B. There are also a lot of computers to create a virtual reality environment. 350 computers in the late 2000s .. now much less I imagine.
The Rafale simulation center is featured in that famous Vishnu Som flies the Rafale NDTV video.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Hmm. You want to talk with Bon Plan for the technical details ! He is much more informed than I am. The way I understand it, such simulation centers have 4 networked simulators, each perfect copies of a Rafale cockpit. With 4 cabins you can create room for 4 pilots with two twin-seats Rafale B. There are also a lot of computers to create a virtual reality environment. 350 computers in the late 2000s .. now much less I imagine.
The Rafale simulation center is featured in that famous Vishnu Som flies the Rafale NDTV video.

If France has 2 centres each with 4 simulators for 141 rafales

I don't think indiNwill needore than 1 centre with 4 simulators fire 36 rafales

And 1 centre costing 200 million dollars don't increase per rafale costs from 75 Millon to 330 million

 

[garg_bharat]

If iaf is ready to spend 12 billion on 36 rafales and not willing to spend

1200 crores on HAL tejas assembly line

Not willing to spend enough on su30mki spares

What can Indian mic do ?

Govt has still not released funds for amca ?/

Why blame Indian mic and psus ?

Why hal does not spend 1200 crore from its own funds? Why it asks mod?

Mod gives orders. The price paid to hal is cost+ basis means cost of facilities is included in the price of the plane.

When hal asks money for assembly line, it seems that they do not want LCA and only making up reasons.

Amca is still in design phase. Not sure which funds you are talking about?

 

[garg_bharat]

Iaf not stocking enough spares of su30 has been addressed.

 

[garg_bharat]

Inefficiency of PSU is in their inability to function like an industry. Their functioning resembles a government department and everybody knows how it works.

A business is about risk taking and fast decision making.

 

[BON PLAN]

India needs to seriously rethink MMRCA situation and Rafale. First, France and Russia are exploiting India's tough situation and bilking every penny (rupee and paisa) out of India in order to fix their dilapidated economy. If India acquires only 36 Rafale in next six –ten years (if lucky) for $7-10 billion, how it is going to solve Indian jet crisis? Dussault is a small time operator and makes money by selling a few jets with incredibly large margin of profit. They do not (and not capable of) want to make 100s of jets for India. They are French and do not know how to work hard and mass produce, India needs hundreds of fighter jets and with this kind of price it will go bankrupt, at least little money for other projects. USA is ready to (and capable of) help India because of its China problem. If Boeing builds F/A-18 or F/A-18E/F in India, India can get Boeing to modify the jet according to IAF's requirement and get the source codes of the software and modify.

At a price of about ~$50 million per jet; India will be able to order at least 200 jets for the price of about 36 Rafales. These are combat proven jets and every US aircraft carrier uses only these jets for combat whereas, Rafale, Su35, Typhoon have never been to any serious combat except for chasing some terrorists with AK-47 in Africa not any Air Force. Thus, why F/A-18 Super Hornets will not be enough for IAF's mission to defend against Pak and China baffles me. India will be foolish not to take advantage of the Boeing offer and solve its jet problem for pennies and long term that will allow India to use leftover funds in developing Tejas MK1A/MKII as well as FGFA with Russia. Second these jets are proven for aircraft carrier like no other jet in the world. Why to waste money on unproven jets that look good on paper and from countries that are snobby and difficult to deal with Shylocks and behave like sharks?

from 2018 Dassault will be able to produce 33 Rafale per year... with a ramp up before.
French need max 10 pcs/year (and maybe less...)
Egypte : 6 plane/year max. 6 on 24 already delivered. Final deliveries in 2018
Qatar : 11/year for 2+ years from 2018

=> slots availables :
2018 : 6+ ( + if France take less than 10/year)
2019 : 12+
2020 : 21+
2021 to ..... : 23+/year.

You need 100 Rafale ? They can be delivered for 2023 nearly....

And if you take a plane near french spec, maybe we could deliver some before 2018.

 

[BON PLAN]

The main thing is rafale was allowed entry after closing of the bids that too withdrawing mirage and

The L1 turned out to be H1/eventually

If it's true, it an Indian problem.
Is it true? we have heard a lot of things about that.... And again if it's true that means Rafale is a product very interesting so as indian modify rules for it.

 

[BON PLAN]

You mean 1/simulator foe each rafail?

Absolutely not.
In france 2 simulator centre. One in Saint Dizier (where the 2 first squad od AdlA are located) and one in Landivisiau (where the Marine Rafale are located when not abroad carrier). The two are connected so as to train together or one against the other or....
There is not one kind of simulator.
You may find "flight simulator" one to train rookies to the different sticks and buttons. It cost few.
And you can find a very complete one, with /-360° field of view and a Rafale like cabin on actuators to simulate movments. It cost a lot.
I think you need different kinds.

I don't know exactly how many "big" Rafale simulators france has. I think if i remember well 2 in Landivisiau and 4 in Saint Dizier. For 140 planes.

 

[BON PLAN]

If France has 2 centres each with 4 simulators for 141 rafales

I don't think indiNwill needore than 1 centre with 4 simulators fire 36 rafales

And 1 centre costing 200 million dollars don't increase per rafale costs from 75 Millon to 330 million

I think it's 2 in Landivisiau (Marine) and 4 in Saint Dizier. But I'm not sure.

 

[sasum]

Are you sure of this statement? India is the world's largest arms importer.seems like a bad strategy we don't need weapons we need few weapons it ok our enemy has weapons .
Do you also believe we don't need a military?

Sir, tell me honestly, do you think India will ever fight a conventional war with nuclear-powered Pak again? Leave alone China...at most there will be Kargil like skirmishes when our fighters didn't dare to cross the border and dropped bombs inside our own boundaries.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sir, tell me honestly, do you think India will ever fight a conventional war with nuclear-powered Pak again? Leave alone China...at most there will be Kargil like skirmishes when our fighters didn't dare to cross the border and dropped bombs inside our own boundaries.

No one willl use nuke in the future. It's only a warranty about a massive attack like germany overflowing france in 1940.
But did Israel use nuke against Irak in 1991 ? no.
Did Irak use chemical weapons in 1991 and 2001? no (and they had it. But not in huge quantity as Bush said)

So regional war may happend. To day and tomorrow.

 

[sasum]

No one willl use nuke in the future. It's only a warranty about a massive attack like germany overflowing france in 1940.
But did Israel use nuke against Irak in 1991 ? no.
Did Irak use chemical weapons in 1991 and 2001? no (and they had it. But not in huge quantity as Bush said)

So regional war may happend. To day and tomorrow.

Did Israel & Iraq fought a full-scale pitched battle in 1991 or ever? No.
On the other hand, India fought 3 full-scale war & one skirmish with Pak. It is a different thing that permanent members of UNSC will prevail upon Pak if it contemplates a nuclear strike in the event it loses further territory in a conventional war with India. But UN or any Super Power is not an insurance against Paki misadventure. Therefore it would be prudent for India not to go to war with Pak. Pak also thinks like-wise. That is why she has been fighting a proxy war for over a decade through terrorists (Read regular soldiers without badge & ID).

 

[BON PLAN]

Did Israel & Iraq fought a full-scale pitched battle in 1991 or ever? No.
On the other hand, India fought 3 full-scale war & one skirmish with Pak. It is a different thing that permanent members of UNSC will prevail upon Pak if it contemplates a nuclear strike in the event it loses further territory in a conventional war with India. But UN or any Super Power is not an insurance against Paki misadventure. Therefore it would be prudent for India not to go to war with Pak. Pak also thinks like-wise. That is why she has been fighting a proxy war for over a decade through terrorists (Read regular soldiers without badge & ID).

Full scare wars between Pak and India were before they had nuke.