India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

[garg_bharat]

What I had given was accepted data of 1A

The basic fact is Tejas is a replacement of mig-21 and mig-27.

Iaf wanted a western origin fighter so rafale was selected as mmrca. In reality there is not much difference in application between su-30 and rafale.

I think problem now is exorbitant price French want for Rafale.

Su-30 burns more fuel but that is not such a big issue if capital cost is much less.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

listen buddy . i went to the 'make in india' exhibition recently---just few days ago . there , besides a model of tejas aircraft were it's specifications . and the model and specifications were posted by HAL , for it was HAL's part of the exhibition . among the specifications was written tejas' combat radius---300 km .

now if HAL says the combat radius is 300km then you cant argue against it , can you....

Do not get stuck in weight and combat radious. It is define in many ways. To make it simple for you, tejas can fly 1700 KM from internal fuel. Now compare this with other plane and you will get a fair judgement. Blunder quotes its radious 1300 KM. This is BS.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

And JF17. Very cheap and flying not so bad. Enough to replace 40/50 years old Mig 21.

JF 17 can simply match the performance of some trainer plane. While discussing the modern plane , discussion of Blunder is out of question.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

copied from wiki page,

Specifications (HAL Tejas Mk.1)

Weapon stations on Tejas

Tejas carrying Astra missile, R-73 missile and drop tank

Tejas weapon display Aero India 2011
Data from tejas.gov.in,[158] DRDO Techfocus,[159] Aero India 2011[160]

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,500 kg[158] (20,944 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,200 kg[158] (29,100 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[161] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[162])
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[citation needed] (2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[163]Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[164][165]
• Range: 3,000 km[163] (1,620 nmi, 1,864 mi)
• Combat radius: 500 km[166] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,700 km[166] (1,056 mi)
• Service ceiling: 15,240 m[158] (50,000 ft)
• Wing loading: 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 1.07[158]
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g[167]

So far as speed is concern, they are theoritical figures, Su 30 MKI do not go beyond mach 1.9 inspite of quoted speed of 2.25 mach. I believe this is true for other planes as well.

 

[smestarz]

The basic fact is Tejas is a replacement of mig-21 and mig-27.

Iaf wanted a western origin fighter so rafale was selected as mmrca. In reality there is not much difference in application between su-30 and rafale.

I think problem now is exorbitant price French want for Rafale.

Su-30 burns more fuel but that is not such a big issue if capital cost is much less.

I agree to what you say, also Su-30 MKI is better in terms of Fuel + War load
Due to its high internal fuel, it can complete most missions where Rafale might need 3 external drop tanks that will reduce the war load and also reduce performance What India needs to do is

A) Induct Tejas 1A
B) get into the co-development and production of PAKFA/FGFA
C) Get into joint development of AMCA along with countries like Israel and Japan (5th gen planes will be expensive and also numbers required will be less and so if any country goes for it alone, it better have a big order so that the prices can be lower, if the numbers are less then the project cost per plane will be high)
D) Push for indigenous avionics industry to develop new avionics and pods for the various planes in service to improve their survival when faced against other planes.
E) Go for simpler cheaper missles for A2G, Cheap to make and use and keep the expensive stand off missiles with huge range for high priority targets.
F) Develop tactics to help planes in IAF to work together to be better Team (for example use Su-30 MKI (with AESA radar) as Air dominance place which has its own 12 A2A missiles and Tejas able to fire the long range missile it carries using firing solution provided by the Su-30 MKI hence providing another aspect of force multiplication at fraction of costs.

 

[smestarz]

In Air to Air role, maybe. But we will have to wait (long) to see Tejas fully developped and operational.
In Air to Grund role.... Not see a cruise missile Under Tejas Wing. Just few guided and unguided bombs. But I haven't seen all photos of Tejas.
And what about maturity? Even after induction you will need to mature systems. Tejas will be ready when Mirage will be retired. So no comparaison possible. So sorry !

We have upgraded Mirage 2000, Tejas has mature technologies and maybe soon we might be using Mirage 2000 as flying targets for Tejas, that is only if Mirage 2000 do not crash of course. France is in such a state that it will keep flying Mirage 2000, else the issue of "numbers" will come soon

 

[smestarz]

And JF17. Very cheap and flying not so bad. Enough to replace 40/50 years old Mig 21.

Thats good, I mean you can buy JF-17, add French avionics and use them to replace your old Mirage 2000 and give Pakistan Rafales in return, Its a win win win for France, pakistan and also India

 

[smestarz]

French always have the habit of poking their dirty nose in the middle, and we shall expect more to come as 31st March comes closer French members will become more desperate to try to push for Rafale sales as if their very lives depended on it.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

See guys. ADA has proposed some change in design for better aerodynamic improvement in tejas that shall bring down drag by 8%. This shall improve Transsonic acceleration by 20% and top speed at sea level by 2%. The proposed change shall allow 3 to 3.5% i.e 60 KG higher fuel carrying. These 2 changes to gather should make ferry range higher by at least 200 KM or even more. The success of these aircraft lies in refining it. The major area I see for improvement are
1) Aerodynamic
2) Weight reduction
3) Air intake redesign.

Within next 10 years, we can make Tejas a 5700 to 5500 KG aircraft with top of the line technology and best performance. What we need is to just keep it improving. In Some time from now, We shall have a bellow 6 ton aircraft capable of carrying 4.5 ton pay load and capable of 9 g turn with AOA 28*. What better can you expect?

Mk 1 shall be an A$$ kicking platfor for sure.

 

[sasum]

A comparison chart of Rafale vs. SU-30Mk I

DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BVR Rating 90%. 80%
Armament 7.8/10. 8.5/10
Technology 7.7/10 7.5/10
Avionics 8.0/10. 8.0/10
Maneuverability 9.5/10. 7.8/10
Rate of Climb:
max. 300 m/s – 60k ft/min max. 300 m/s – 60k ft/min
Thrust/Weight 1.13. 1.10
Service Ceiling 17 km – 55k ft 17 km – 56k ft
Speed 2.00 Mach. 1.90 Mach
Fuel Economy:
0.27 km/l – 0.63 NM/gallon
0.58 km/l – 1.36 NM/gallon
Unit Cost 90.000.000 USD 47.000.000 USD

BVR Armament Comparison
CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BVR AAM missile: MBDA Meteor Vympel R-77M
Nation NATO RUSSIA
Year in 2013 1998
Range (mile) 62 99
Range (km) 100 160
Range (NM) 54 86
Speed (mph) 2640 2970
Speed (km/h) 4248 4779
Speed (Mach) 4 4,5
Weight (lb) 407 497
Weight (kg) 185 226
Unit Cost $1.600.000 Unknown
BVR Rating 90% 80%


Dogfight (armament: only cannon)

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
Cannon GIAT 30M/719B GSh-30-1
Caliber (mm) 30 mm 30 mm
Rate of Fire(rpm) 2500 rpm 1800 rpm
Muzzle Velocity (m/s) 1025 m/s 850 m/s
Size Point (10% to 30%) 30% NO
Maneuverability (x/10) 9,5 7,8
Thrust/Weight Ratio 1,13 1,10
Total Points 50 (65) 25
Probability of winning 72% 28%
General data table

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
Length 15.27 m – 50 ft 1 in 21.90 m – 72 ft 10 in
Wingspan 10.80 m – 35 ft 4 in 14.70 m – 48 ft 3 in
Height 5.30 m – 17 ft 3 in 6.36 m – 20 ft 9 in
Weight 10,100 kg – 22,6k lb 18,400 kg – 40,5k lb
Power 2 x 75 kN – 17k lbf 2 x 122 kN – 27k lbf
Armament

DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
14 HARDPOINTS 12 HARDPOINTS
1 × 30 mm GIAT 30/719B cannon (125 rounds) 1 × 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon (150 rounds)
MBDA MICA IR/EM (AAM missile) R-77 (AAM missile)
Magic II (AAM missile) Astra (AAM missile)
MBDA Meteor (AAM missile) R-27ER, R-27ET, R-27R, R-27T (AAM missile)
MBDA Apache (AGM missile) R-73 (AAM missile)
SCALP EG (AGM missile) Novator KS-172 (AAM-L missile)
AASM (AGM missile) Kh-59ME, Kh-59MK (AGM missile)
AM 39 Exocet (AGM missile) KH-39 (AGM missile)
ASMP-A (nuclear AGM missile) PJ-10 (AGM missile)
Paveway II (bomb) Nirbhay (AGM missile)
Kh-31P/A anti-radar (AGM missile)
Kh-29T/L (AGM missile)
S-8, S-13 rockets
KAB-500L, KAB-1000L (bomb)
FAB-500T (bomb)
OFAB-250-270, OFAB-100-120 (bomb)
RBK-500 (bomb)
Facts – Dassault Rafale vs Sukhoi SU-30MKI

Sukhoi SU-30MKI is cheaper.
Sukhoi SU-30MKI is more economical.
Dassault Rafale is faster.
Sukhoi SU-30MKI is better armed.
Dassault Rafale is better dogfighter.
Dassault Rafale is smaller than Sukhoi SU-30MKI.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

A comparison chart of Rafale vs. SU-30Mk I

DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BVR Rating 90%. 80%
Armament 7.8/10. 8.5/10
Technology 7.7/10 7.5/10
Avionics 8.0/10. 8.0/10
Maneuverability 9.5/10. 7.8/10
Rate of Climb:
max. 300 m/s – 60k ft/min max. 300 m/s – 60k ft/min
Thrust/Weight 1.13. 1.10
Service Ceiling 17 km – 55k ft 17 km – 56k ft
Speed 2.00 Mach. 1.90 Mach
Fuel Economy:
0.27 km/l – 0.63 NM/gallon
0.58 km/l – 1.36 NM/gallon
Unit Cost 90.000.000 USD 47.000.000 USD

BVR Armament Comparison
CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
BVR AAM missile: MBDA Meteor Vympel R-77M
Nation NATO RUSSIA
Year in 2013 1998
Range (mile) 62 99
Range (km) 100 160
Range (NM) 54 86
Speed (mph) 2640 2970
Speed (km/h) 4248 4779
Speed (Mach) 4 4,5
Weight (lb) 407 497
Weight (kg) 185 226
Unit Cost $1.600.000 Unknown
BVR Rating 90% 80%


Dogfight (armament: only cannon)

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
Cannon GIAT 30M/719B GSh-30-1
Caliber (mm) 30 mm 30 mm
Rate of Fire(rpm) 2500 rpm 1800 rpm
Muzzle Velocity (m/s) 1025 m/s 850 m/s
Size Point (10% to 30%) 30% NO
Maneuverability (x/10) 9,5 7,8
Thrust/Weight Ratio 1,13 1,10
Total Points 50 (65) 25
Probability of winning 72% 28%
General data table

CATEGORY DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
Length 15.27 m – 50 ft 1 in 21.90 m – 72 ft 10 in
Wingspan 10.80 m – 35 ft 4 in 14.70 m – 48 ft 3 in
Height 5.30 m – 17 ft 3 in 6.36 m – 20 ft 9 in
Weight 10,100 kg – 22,6k lb 18,400 kg – 40,5k lb
Power 2 x 75 kN – 17k lbf 2 x 122 kN – 27k lbf
Armament

DASSAULT RAFALE SUKHOI SU-30MKI
14 HARDPOINTS 12 HARDPOINTS
1 × 30 mm GIAT 30/719B cannon (125 rounds) 1 × 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon (150 rounds)
MBDA MICA IR/EM (AAM missile) R-77 (AAM missile)
Magic II (AAM missile) Astra (AAM missile)
MBDA Meteor (AAM missile) R-27ER, R-27ET, R-27R, R-27T (AAM missile)
MBDA Apache (AGM missile) R-73 (AAM missile)
SCALP EG (AGM missile) Novator KS-172 (AAM-L missile)
AASM (AGM missile) Kh-59ME, Kh-59MK (AGM missile)
AM 39 Exocet (AGM missile) KH-39 (AGM missile)
ASMP-A (nuclear AGM missile) PJ-10 (AGM missile)
Paveway II (bomb) Nirbhay (AGM missile)
Kh-31P/A anti-radar (AGM missile)
Kh-29T/L (AGM missile)
S-8, S-13 rockets
KAB-500L, KAB-1000L (bomb)
FAB-500T (bomb)
OFAB-250-270, OFAB-100-120 (bomb)
RBK-500 (bomb)
Facts – Dassault Rafale vs Sukhoi SU-30MKI

Sukhoi SU-30MKI is cheaper.
Sukhoi SU-30MKI is more economical.
Dassault Rafale is faster.
Sukhoi SU-30MKI is better armed.
Dassault Rafale is better dogfighter.
Dassault Rafale is smaller than Sukhoi SU-30MKI.

Some DATA seems inaccurate. e.g The speed of Rafale is 1.8 what they claimed here it is shown faster than sukhoi 30 whose speed is 2.25 mach.
Another point is maneuverability. They rates Rafale higher over Su 30. They do not seem to have taken super maneuverability in account. In recent face off, MKI defeated Euro fighter 13 to 0. Euro fighter is a more agile plane than Rafale with a very high T/W ratio.

 

[sasum]

Some DATA seems inaccurate. e.g The speed of Rafale is 1.8 what they claimed here it is shown faster than sukhoi 30 whose speed is 2.25 mach.
Another point is maneuverability. They rates Rafale higher over Su 30. They do not seem to have taken super maneuverability in account. In recent face off, MKI defeated Euro fighter 13 to 0. Euro fighter is a more agile plane than Rafale with a very high T/W ratio.

No two or more sets of data ever match ! Take for instance the capacity of Arihant's Reactor. I have seen sources quoting from 80 MW to 96 MW. I don't believe in the specs quoted by guys at defence expo stalls.

 

[garg_bharat]

The key point here is that Rafale is a good fighter but there is no strong rationale to buy it in place of sukhoi.

If prices were similar, then yes.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sure, I can argue, either you read 300 instead of 3000 else HAL mistakenly wrote 300 instead of 3000

These are the numbers which are widely accepted

Range: 3,000 km
Combat radius: 500 km[
Ferry range: 1,700 km[

So thats why am saying that tere was some error, no chance that IAF would accept a plane with just 300 kms range

You said just before :
"Unfoftunately you are wrong, the range of Tejas on internal fuel is 850 kms"

So what are the right datas ?

Your answers are like F14 wings..... at variable geometry !

 

[BON PLAN]

JF 17 can simply match the performance of some trainer plane. While discussing the modern plane , discussion of Blunder is out of question.

To deliver somes bombs on Taliban it's not so inadequate.
And a fighter is a plane (OK, 70's style) and a weapon system (not up to date, but not a mig 21 one)

 

[BON PLAN]

French always have the habit of poking their dirty nose in the middle, and we shall expect more to come as 31st March comes closer French members will become more desperate to try to push for Rafale sales as if their very lives depended on it.

Or until 31th of march we received on order for 60 pieces from UAE....

 

[BON PLAN]

Some DATA seems inaccurate. e.g The speed of Rafale is 1.8 what they claimed here it is shown faster than sukhoi 30 whose speed is 2.25 mach.
Another point is maneuverability. They rates Rafale higher over Su 30. They do not seem to have taken super maneuverability in account. In recent face off, MKI defeated Euro fighter 13 to 0. Euro fighter is a more agile plane than Rafale with a very high T/W ratio.

In all encounter, Rafale outclass EF in dog fight. in Corsica training : Rafale 7 victory , EF 1 victory.

EF is only more agile in supersonic.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think French are only playing with india. There is no intention to sell, only to delay.

Unfortunately IAF leadership is ignorant of this.

 

[garg_bharat]

India may be saved by Russians, again.

The French should not be trusted.

 

[sasum]

You said just before :
"Unfoftunately you are wrong, the range of Tejas on internal fuel is 850 kms"

So what are the right datas ?

Your answers are like F14 wings..... at variable geometry !

Tejas

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[citation needed](2,205 km/h) for FOC version;[163] Mach 1.6 (2,000 km/h) for IOC version;[164][165]
• Range: 3,000 km[163] (1,620 nmi, 1,864 mi) . Both ferry/empty range and loaded range will increase with drop-tank albeit at the cost of a few bombs.
• Combat radius: 500 km[166] (270 nmi, 311 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,700 km[166] (1,056 mi)
• Service ceiling: 15,240 m[158] (50,000 ft)
• Wing loading: 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)

Thrust/weight: 1.07[158]
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