India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Sourav Kumar]

IMO, we don't need USA to "counter" china. I am growing really old hearing about 5th gen aircraft and S-400. Let the S-400 come, finally! USA can go anywhere with its manipulations.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I say we buy the S-400. Order 10-12 more, if feasible.
Cook up a deal with the Chinese to get some Rinminbi reserves, and buy millions, if not billions of barrels of Iranian oil, while it is dirt cheap.

To hell with this hedonistic, country of called JewSA.

US must realize that India overall is an isolationist country. Even if were to become the most powerful country in the world with the biggest economy and strongest military, we wont really bother about whats happening in some other continent. Even our naval base acquisitions in the IOR have been due to Chinese expansion in the region. So other major powers who want to screw around in the world would be well served not making India an adversary, because we never planned on messing with anyone in the first place.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

IMO, we don't need USA to "counter" china. I am growing really old hearing about 5th gen aircraft and S-400. Let the S-400 come, finally! USA can go anywhere with its manipulations.

PAKFA probably not coming anytime soon.



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[LETHALFORCE]

US must realize that India overall is an isolationist country. Even if were to become the most powerful country in the world with the biggest economy and strongest military, we wont really bother about whats happening in some other continent. Even our naval base acquisitions in the IOR have been due to Chinese expansion in the region. So other major powers who want to screw around in the world would be well served not making India an adversary, because we never planned on messing with anyone in the first place.

This is very true we let Pakistan go nuclear without doing anything. We are in no way a proactive country like other powers we are not even reactive. Strategically we can make an analogy to an ostrich that has its head in the sand.


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[nongaddarliberal]

This is very true we let Pakistan go nuclear without doing anything. We are in no way a proactive country like other powers we are not even reactive. Strategically we can make an analogy to an ostrich that has its head in the sand.


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I didn't mean isolationist in a bad way. Just that as long as someone doesn't threaten us, we don't really bother about them, and all we want is for our own country to prosper. If we figure out how to get energy independent and have all the resources for sustaining our own economy, we might as well say fuck off to the rest of the world. Our previous behavior wasn't isolationist, it was just plain old retarded.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I didn't mean isolationist in a bad way. Just that as long as someone doesn't threaten us, we don't really bother about them, and all we want is for our own country to prosper. If we figure out how to get energy independent and have all the resources for sustaining our own economy, we might as well say fuck off to the rest of the world. Our previous behavior wasn't isolationist, it was just plain old retarded.

many people dream of becoming a superpower but we are not even a regional power. No internal , energy security do not control our water supply two nuclear neighbors. Terrorists at every border and anti nationals making up politics . This isolation has costed India dearly. 5 decades of no economic growth. World has advanced India plays catch up. Economically we will always be a dependent nation isolation will kill the economy.

 

[ezsasa]

The relationship phase that India-us is going thru now , happens for first two years whenever a new American president comes to power.

Reason is because there is no permanent desk for India in American foreign office, and India desk is usually short staffed irrespective of the president.

This time around, foreign secretary Jai Shankar is also not around to handle things.

Usually in such situations both countries put the relationship on a slow burner, until Americans can figure out the official policy. Economic relationship between US and India will continue irrespective of politics, it’s the security and strategic relationship that is taking the hit.

By trump going against Iran and American democrats going against Russians, they have made it difficult for themselves.

If in coming months if trump becomes friends with China, India has no reason to be nice to the Americans anymore.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The relationship phase that India-us is going thru now , happens for first two years whenever a new American president comes to power.

Reason is because there is no permanent desk for India in American foreign office, and India desk is usually short staffed irrespective of the president.

This time around, foreign secretary Jai Shankar is also not around to handle things.

Usually in such situations both countries put the relationship on a slow burner, until Americans can figure out the official policy. Economic relationship between US and India will continue irrespective of politics, it’s the security and strategic relationship that is taking the hit.

By trump going against Iran and American democrats going against Russians, they have made it difficult for themselves.

If in coming months if trump becomes friends with China, India has no reason to be nice to the Americans anymore.

Trump just wants economic isolation of Iran and Russia. Us and India are sharing a strategic relationship . Us will expect this and a lot lot more. Problem arises in the fact India wants to be viewed as an equal to USA and USA does not view it as an equal.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

S400 being finalized. Historical moment. My great respects to PM modi.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...espite-us-opposition/articleshow/64810964.cms



India moves towards acquiring Russian S-400 missile systems despite US opposition

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Turkey’s controversial S-400 missile transfer is ‘done deal’

http://www.atimes.com/article/turkeys-controversial-s-400-transfer-is-a-done-deal/

Interesting turkey finalizing around same time?????????

 

[ezsasa]

S400 being finalized. Historical moment. My great respects to PM modi.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...espite-us-opposition/articleshow/64810964.cms



India moves towards acquiring Russian S-400 missile systems despite US opposition

I think purpose of this source based ToI-let article is to create leverage for the Americans in upcoming negotiations with us.

These articles usually form part of the daily briefings of Stratfor (like organisations), these briefings form the official inputs from US embassy to their state department.

In all probability S-400 deal is already done a few months back.

What’s interesting is that FOREX fell about 15 billion $ and yet the rupee fell. I wonder what was it used for(could also be used of oil).

 

[Kshithij]

many people dream of becoming a superpower but we are not even a regional power. No internal , energy security do not control our water supply two nuclear neighbors. Terrorists at every border and anti nationals making up politics . This isolation has costed India dearly. 5 decades of no economic growth. World has advanced India plays catch up. Economically we will always be a dependent nation isolation will kill the economy.

Do you understand that the internal threat is the key threat India can give to external actors? India can threaten to throw out all the internal threat outside if outsiders don't give sufficient payment. India gets remittance and FFI of 100 billion dollars a year and that is given because of this leverage.

India is a relatively resource deficient state. Unlike Japan, India is not resource less but India does not have enough resource to be developed foe the population. So, India has to rely on foreign resources. For that India has a massive leverage by which India can even be termed as super power.

You may not understand what kind of terror India is to the countries around. It was because of retarded behavior that India did not exercise this power. But India is no more retarded. So, with the current situation, India is a super power.

The relationship phase that India-us is going thru now , happens for first two years whenever a new American president comes to power.

Reason is because there is no permanent desk for India in American foreign office, and India desk is usually short staffed irrespective of the president.

This time around, foreign secretary Jai Shankar is also not around to handle things.

Usually in such situations both countries put the relationship on a slow burner, until Americans can figure out the official policy. Economic relationship between US and India will continue irrespective of politics, it’s the security and strategic relationship that is taking the hit.

By trump going against Iran and American democrats going against Russians, they have made it difficult for themselves.

If in coming months if trump becomes friends with China, India has no reason to be nice to the Americans anymore.

China is a much more reasonable country and is not hostile. Don't go into the media news. It was the tibet govtin exile hosted by India that riles China. India can easily make peace by stating that Dalai Lama has prostate cancer and after him India will not bring a new Dalai Lama, thereby ending the dispute.

In case of China,India is the culprit. India is the one who started the hostility unnecessarily. Nehru was under the influence of UK (he was installed by UK) and made enemies with China on their behalf

 

[ezsasa]

China is a much more reasonable country and is not hostile. Don't go into the media news. It was the tibet govtin exile hosted by India that riles China. India can easily make peace by stating that Dalai Lama has prostate cancer and after him India will not bring a new Dalai Lama, thereby ending the dispute.

In case of China,India is the culprit. India is the one who started the hostility unnecessarily. Nehru was under the influence of UK (he was installed by UK) and made enemies with China on their behalf

China seems reasonable because they don't say much in public about their policies. It is also true that which ever country depended on china got screwed, latest among them being our neighbour.

 

[Kshithij]

China seems reasonable because they don't say much in public about their policies. It is also true that which ever country depended on china got screwed, latest among them being our neighbour.

Unlike countries like USA, UK, China makes a proper deal beforehand. China doesn't specify political rules but just specifies specific monetary and resource deals. So, when you are dealing with China there is certainty due to them telling things beforehand.

When you are dealing with USA or other western countries, they keep giving vague promise and keep people on the toes. If you let them invest in India, they will slyly divert a part to missionaries and other agents. They also impose political condition

Pakistan did not get screwed. Pakistan does not even have steel industry and hence needed foreign capital. China was the only nation Willing to take the risk. Pakistan never had a trade surplus and they knew about repayment problems beforehand along with the terms. Pakistanis might have got guarantee from GCC countries to repay the loans. China didn't cheat Pakistan by telling one thing and doing another.

Pakistan got screwed by USA who in the name of security cooperation brought in a lot of CIA agents and have placed them in Pakistan.

 

[ezsasa]

Unlike countries like USA, UK, China makes a proper deal beforehand. China doesn't specify political rules but just specifies specific monetary and resource deals. So, when you are dealing with China there is certainty due to them telling things beforehand.

When you are dealing with USA or other western countries, they keep giving vague promise and keep people on the toes. If you let them invest in India, they will slyly divert a part to missionaries and other agents. They also impose political condition

Pakistan did not get screwed. Pakistan does not even have steel industry and hence needed foreign capital. China was the only nation Willing to take the risk. Pakistan never had a trade surplus and they knew about repayment problems beforehand along with the terms. Pakistanis might have got guarantee from GCC countries to repay the loans. China didn't cheat Pakistan by telling one thing and doing another.

Pakistan got screwed by USA who in the name of security cooperation brought in a lot of CIA agents and have placed them in Pakistan.

May be ..... But...

China is like a company with promotional product offer, buy 1 get 1 free.

They did specify political rules to pakistan, you think gilgit baltistan getting incuded as one of the provinces after CPEC started is not a political move.

Paki public and their own senate does not even know what the conditions of CPEC financing are.

And more importantly CPEC was supposed to be a development project for pakiland. so far what we know is that CPEC provided loans to pak govt. Paki govt gave contracts only to chinese companies. Much of the steel, equipment and skilled labour came from china and no where else. Basically chinese gave money with one hand and took back 70% of that money with another hand. Paki govt is supposed to pay loans to china on 100% of funds. what paki economy got from CPEC deal is unskilled labour employment and some cement sales(may be).

Basically my point is that Chinese have not matured enough to be a responsible world leader, which they aspire to be. hence they cannot be trusted.

U.S on the other hand are transparent even if they betray other countries. They are transparent because they are a democracy.

 

[Kshithij]

May be ..... But...

China is like a company with promotional product offer, buy 1 get 1 free.

They did specify political rules to pakistan, you think gilgit baltistan getting incuded as one of the provinces after CPEC started is not a political move.

Paki public and their own senate does not even know what the conditions of CPEC financing are.

And more importantly CPEC was supposed to be a development project for pakiland. so far what we know is that CPEC provided loans to pak govt. Paki govt gave contracts only to chinese companies. Much of the steel, equipment and skilled labour came from china and no where else. Basically chinese gave money with one hand and took back 70% of that money with another hand. Paki govt is supposed to pay loans to china on 100% of funds. what paki economy got from CPEC deal is unskilled labour employment and some cement sales(may be).

Basically my point is that Chinese have not matured enough to be a responsible world leader, which they aspire to be. hence they cannot be trusted.

U.S on the other hand are transparent even if they betray other countries. They are transparent because they are a democracy.

Actually the transparency of USA is limited only to a few situations. USA not only puts political condition but also buys media to promote their propaganda and keepa back channel pressure.

The CPEC deal was opaque due to Pakistan not willing to share the details. It would likely have involved guarantee from GCC countries and that might have been sensitive. Even France India deal of fighter jets were kept opaque due to secrecy caluse. The Gilgit-Baltistan move was a result of Pakistani frustration on Modi rather than Chinese pressure.

The very reason Pakistan asked China for COEC loans is not for cash but for the equipment and materials. Pakistan has no steel industry to make concrete construction. It doesn't have pipe manufacturing to lay pipes. Even railway tracks are difficult to be made in Pakistan in fast and efficient manner. Wo Pakistan wantee the material from China as loans. Even here, Chinese did not cheat. To use Pakistani material and give jobs to Pakistani industrial workers, Pakistan must have an industry first.

Pakistan has no skilled labour in any sector - electronics, metallurgy etc. Even the basic knowledge areas like lawyers, civil engineers, software engineers are of bad quality in Pakistan. We saw how Pakistani lawyers argue cases and cause embarrassment. Pakistani coders could not code avionics for JF17 and the avionics had to be written in C language to make the Pakistanis understand. What skilled labour can China provide Pakistanis?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Do you understand that the internal threat is the key threat India can give to external actors? India can threaten to throw out all the internal threat outside if outsiders don't give sufficient payment. India gets remittance and FFI of 100 billion dollars a year and that is given because of this leverage.

India is a relatively resource deficient state. Unlike Japan, India is not resource less but India does not have enough resource to be developed foe the population. So, India has to rely on foreign resources. For that India has a massive leverage by which India can even be termed as super power.

You may not understand what kind of terror India is to the countries around. It was because of retarded behavior that India did not exercise this power. But India is no more retarded. So, with the current situation, India is a super power.

China is a much more reasonable country and is not hostile. Don't go into the media news. It was the tibet govtin exile hosted by India that riles China. India can easily make peace by stating that Dalai Lama has prostate cancer and after him India will not bring a new Dalai Lama, thereby ending the dispute.

In case of China,India is the culprit. India is the one who started the hostility unnecessarily. Nehru was under the influence of UK (he was installed by UK) and made enemies with China on their behalf

I think you need to understand the definition of superpower . Most of the excuses India makes today for falling behind are self created. India is very far from taking any kind of
Internationaal leadership role. First it must tackle its own energy,security,water and economic problems before looking outside.

 

[ezsasa]

Actually the transparency of USA is limited only to a few situations. USA not only puts political condition but also buys media to promote their propaganda and keepa back channel pressure.

The CPEC deal was opaque due to Pakistan not willing to share the details. It would likely have involved guarantee from GCC countries and that might have been sensitive. Even France India deal of fighter jets were kept opaque due to secrecy caluse. The Gilgit-Baltistan move was a result of Pakistani frustration on Modi rather than Chinese pressure.

The very reason Pakistan asked China for COEC loans is not for cash but for the equipment and materials. Pakistan has no steel industry to make concrete construction. It doesn't have pipe manufacturing to lay pipes. Even railway tracks are difficult to be made in Pakistan in fast and efficient manner. Wo Pakistan wantee the material from China as loans. Even here, Chinese did not cheat. To use Pakistani material and give jobs to Pakistani industrial workers, Pakistan must have an industry first.

Pakistan has no skilled labour in any sector - electronics, metallurgy etc. Even the basic knowledge areas like lawyers, civil engineers, software engineers are of bad quality in Pakistan. We saw how Pakistani lawyers argue cases and cause embarrassment. Pakistani coders could not code avionics for JF17 and the avionics had to be written in C language to make the Pakistanis understand. What skilled labour can China provide Pakistanis?

USA is not a single entity. There is public deliberation before they arrive at a decision .They are a rule based order, rules which are predicated on benefitting the american economy and strategic interest. since it is a democracy there is leeway to change course if they are going in the wrong direction.

China is a single entity. Once the party decides on the direction, they will follow thru irrespective of the opposition. They are a autocracy based order which is predicated on competing with US and take it's place in the world. Since it is not a democracy, you can't reason with them if are doing something wrong knowingly or unknowingly.

as far as i am concerned the new china experiment is yet to unravel itself, they are yet to complete a full cycle. they are in ascension mode right now, i am interested to see how they fare during bad times which they are yet to face .No country can keep going up and up, there is limit to it.

 

[Kshithij]

I think you need to understand the definition of superpower . Most of the excuses India makes today for falling behind are self created. India is very far from taking any kind of
Internationaal leadership role. First it must tackle its own energy,security,water and economic problems before looking outside.

Lack of technology and internal security problem is self created. But the resource deficiency like Petroleum deficiency, water deficiency is natural. Industry require petroleum and that is severely deficient.

Then how will India be a super power? That is possible by waiting for petroleum to exhaust while in the meantime develop technology. When Petroleum exhaust, India will have large population, technology and coal liquefaction to get energy. No other country would have Indian prowess. The only additional aspect - Petroleum will.be non existent in all countries.

Richness and better economy is directly linked to Petroleum and there is no alternative. But that is also temporary and hence not to think too much about.

USA is not a single entity. There is public deliberation before they arrive at a decision .They are a rule based order, rules which are predicated on benefitting the american economy and strategic interest. since it is a democracy there is leeway to change course if they are going in the wrong direction.

China is a single entity. Once the party decides on the direction, they will follow thru irrespective of the opposition. They are a autocracy based order which is predicated on competing with US and take it's place in the world. Since it is not a democracy, you can't reason with them if are doing something wrong knowingly or unknowingly.

as far as i am concerned the new china experiment is yet to unravel itself, they are yet to complete a full cycle. they are in ascension mode right now, i am interested to see how they fare during bad times which they are yet to face .No country can keep going up and up, there is limit to it.

You are saying that China is strong internally while USA can have lot of rotten apples and traitors who can aid the enemy. That is true. But other than that, USA doctrine is far worse than China. USA derives its sinister ways from UK experience of colonial rule. China does not do such things.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Lack of technology and internal security problem is self created. But the resource deficiency like Petroleum deficiency, water deficiency is natural. Industry require petroleum and that is severely deficient.

Then how will India be a super power? That is possible by waiting for petroleum to exhaust while in the meantime develop technology. When Petroleum exhaust, India will have large population, technology and coal liquefaction to get energy. No other country would have Indian prowess. The only additional aspect - Petroleum will.be non existent in all countries.

Richness and better economy is directly linked to Petroleum and there is no alternative. But that is also temporary and hence not to think too much about.

You are saying that China is strong internally while USA can have lot of rotten apples and traitors who can aid the enemy. That is true. But other than that, USA doctrine is far worse than China. USA derives its sinister ways from UK experience of colonial rule. China does not do such things.

There are a few quotes which can sum this up

Winners write the history books

Nice guys finish last

All is fair in love and war

By hook or crook

We know historically India has been a good boy ( although world would disagree)
And we all know how it has benefitted India today. India played huge roles in ww1 and ww2
But they have been almost completely erased from history books