India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Adioz]

.... Actually its not so confusing if you start reading between lines and try to summarize up the whole idea behind XR-SAM. It has been envisioned after repeated successful trial of AAD. It is a derivative of AAD. So currently AAD does have a range of 120 km, so doubling up the range is the idea behind XR-SAM. So we could assume that it would be on par with S-300.

S-400 main features are not range and KP only.
XR-SAM will not be so mobile and stealthy and will not have an equal network centric capabilities ever...

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Once India 's inducts S-400 and S-500 the whole Pakistani airforce will be paralyzed within
250-500 km of their airspace.

I am a fanboy when it comes to indigenous defence products so I'll keep my fingers crossed for an XR-SAM that is in the S-400 class. Maybe it'll be as @IndianHawk said in #714 , we'll slowly evolve XR-SAM to greater ranges and maybe it will evolve into a system comparable to S-500 in the future. Optimism is all I have.

About the network-centricity though, I think IACCS is already online no? And its going to recieve a boost once GSAT-7A is launched sometime next year. All IACCS nodes are expected to be in place by 2020. And there were plans to move to completely dynamic targeting by 2025. So why would XR-SAM not have netowork capabilities equal to S-400?

 

[IndianHawk]

I am a fanboy when it comes to indigenous defence products so I'll keep my fingers crossed for an XR-SAM that is in the S-400 class. Maybe it'll be as @IndianHawk said in #714 , we'll slowly evolve XR-SAM to greater ranges and maybe it will evolve into a system comparable to S-500 in the future. Optimism is all I have.

Your optimism is perfectly realistic. In 10 years we will be a 7-8 trillion $ economy almost 3 times the size of Russia. Even today our defense r&d expenditure is closing in on Russia. So it's no surprise that we shall catch up in most areas of defense technology in next decade .

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I am a fanboy when it comes to indigenous defence products so I'll keep my fingers crossed for an XR-SAM that is in the S-400 class. Maybe it'll be as @IndianHawk said in #714 , we'll slowly evolve XR-SAM to greater ranges and maybe it will evolve into a system comparable to S-500 in the future. Optimism is all I have.

About the network-centricity though, I think IACCS is already online no? And its going to recieve a boost once GSAT-7A is launched sometime next year. All IACCS nodes are expected to be in place by 2020. And there were plans to move to completely dynamic targeting by 2025. So why would XR-SAM not have netowork capabilities equal to S-400?

There is talk that Russia needs a partner to finance S-500 so Imo India will link up on this project?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20...Russian_S_400_Air_Defense_System#.WdvVxGhSyHs


Turkey To Not Get Access To 'Internals' Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System

Our Bureau02:49 PM, October 5, 2017905 viewsTurkey Will Not Gain Access To Internals Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System Turkey Will Not Gain Access To Internals Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System- A +
Russia has turned down Turkey’s request to have an access to the internal systems of the S-400 Triumph air-defense system, a Russian news agency reported.
According to Gazeta.ru, this applies to one of the weapon’s key elements: The friend-or-foe identification system, including other electronics.

"We did not agree to their demand to allow access to the S-400’s internals, therefore the systems will have a friend-or-foe identification system made in Russia. Turkey insisted on us passing on the passwords and control to them but we refused to do so," the source told the news site.

The source noted that as per the agreement, technical servicing will only be done only by Russia.

In September, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced that Moscow received Ankara’s deposit for the S-400. The two sides agreed to a $2.5 billion U.S. deal for four S-400 systems in July, following nine months of negotiations since Turkey expressed interest in the S-400.

According to Viktor Murakhovsky, editor-in-chief of the Arsenal Otechestva magazine, Ankara won't receive the first systems until 2020.

"At present Russia is completing the rearmament of its own army with the S-400s and after that it will have to meet its obligations to China and India for these systems. Accordingly, only after that will Almaz-Antei start assembling S-400 systems for Turkey," Murakhovsky told Russia Beyond.

The S-400 Triumf is a road-mobile long-range surface to air missile system. Each self-propelled or semi-trailer-mounted launcher has four missiles, which have ranges up to 250 miles depending on the variant.

Saudi Arabia also will not get.

 

[IndiaRising]

people have to be idiots to believe russia will give s-400 in its original form. when will bureaucrats in MoD realize indigenization is the only solution?

 

[gadeshi]

people have to be idiots to believe russia will give s-400 in its original form. when will bureaucrats in MoD realize indigenization is the only solution?

They do.
But they are smarter than you are and realise that indigenous is risky and take huge amount of time, so they want to do both - import with TOT and grow indigenous.

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[IndiaRising]

They do.
But they are smarter than you are and realise that indigenous is risky and take huge amount of time, so they want to do both - import with TOT and grow indigenous.

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they are so smart that their collective fraternity for the past 70 years has gone to whatever length necessary to stop indigenization.

 

[Kalki_2018]

XR-SAM is the way forward. S-400 is a dead end.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20...Russian_S_400_Air_Defense_System#.WdvVxGhSyHs


Turkey To Not Get Access To 'Internals' Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System

Our Bureau02:49 PM, October 5, 2017905 viewsTurkey Will Not Gain Access To Internals Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System Turkey Will Not Gain Access To Internals Of Russian S-400 Air Defense System- A +
Russia has turned down Turkey’s request to have an access to the internal systems of the S-400 Triumph air-defense system, a Russian news agency reported.
According to Gazeta.ru, this applies to one of the weapon’s key elements: The friend-or-foe identification system, including other electronics.

"We did not agree to their demand to allow access to the S-400’s internals, therefore the systems will have a friend-or-foe identification system made in Russia. Turkey insisted on us passing on the passwords and control to them but we refused to do so," the source told the news site.

The source noted that as per the agreement, technical servicing will only be done only by Russia.

In September, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced that Moscow received Ankara’s deposit for the S-400. The two sides agreed to a $2.5 billion U.S. deal for four S-400 systems in July, following nine months of negotiations since Turkey expressed interest in the S-400.

According to Viktor Murakhovsky, editor-in-chief of the Arsenal Otechestva magazine, Ankara won't receive the first systems until 2020.

"At present Russia is completing the rearmament of its own army with the S-400s and after that it will have to meet its obligations to China and India for these systems. Accordingly, only after that will Almaz-Antei start assembling S-400 systems for Turkey," Murakhovsky told Russia Beyond.

The S-400 Triumf is a road-mobile long-range surface to air missile system. Each self-propelled or semi-trailer-mounted launcher has four missiles, which have ranges up to 250 miles depending on the variant.

Saudi Arabia also will not get.

Turkey 4 systems for 2.5bn.

India 5 systems for 5bn.

Whats the Jhol?

 

[gadeshi]

Turkey 4 systems for 2.5bn.

India 5 systems for 5bn.

Whats the Jhol?

TOT and MII

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[Adioz]

There is talk that Russia needs a partner to finance S-500 so Imo India will link up on this project?

That depends on what partnership means. If its another FGFA saga, we had better stay away from funding development. If we do need it, we can buy a few off-shelf in a S-400 like deal.
BTW, have the Russians asked for Indian financial support for this project yet? If they have, then we need to atleast push for joint development.

 

[Chinmoy]

Turkey 4 systems for 2.5bn.

India 5 systems for 5bn.

Whats the Jhol?

India is not going for the whole system. Moreover India want codes to incorporate Green Pine with it.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

India is not going for the whole system. Moreover India want codes to incorporate Green Pine with it.

We are paying more for not hAving the whole system and incorporating our iwn radar?

 

[Chinmoy]

We are paying more for not hAving the whole system and incorporating our iwn radar?

S-400 consists of 4 missiles. It means in a regular battalion you would have 8 missiles each i.e. 32 missiles along with command center. But India just wants 40N6. It means in a peculiar battalion we would have 32 missile of single type. Automatically it makes the cost go up. And remember along with 5 battalion we are purchasing 6k more missiles as replenishment.

Incorporating own RADAR in the system means getting source code from manufacturer. And it makes the cost goes up tremendously.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If we are using our own radar why does it add to cost? It should be less costly and more secure? Learned from Brahmos.


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[Chinmoy]

If we are using our own radar why does it add to cost? It should be less costly and more secure? Learned from Brahmos.


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We are not using our own RADAR. We are talking about incorporating our own RADAR in the system for TAR purpose. S-400 would have its RADAR, but along with it, Green Pine RADAR would also be there as supplement.

Its like incorporating Israeli avionics in Russian FCS.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

S400 and THAAD are a waste of money. We will only get monkey models and no TOT. Better to fast track XRSAM project. It is not a long term project as some are suggesting. We already have the building blocks : BMD radar (1500 Km), as well as boosters and dual pulse rocket engine for missiles of the category of 40N6 or SM-3, command and control of BMD programme. If all the systems can be put together we will see XRSAM in near future.

 

[Kalki_2018]

India can already make 40N6 category SAM , why are we wasting time on this monkey model? S-400 will find enough stupid customers like china, saudi or turkey.

 

[Chinmoy]

Guys jumping up and down comparing S-400 with others should read it.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Thinking about the situation a bit before outright dismissing S-400, one must realize that realistically we really can't automagically spawn a full capability, long range, networked SAM, which is expected to survive in ECM, SEAD heavy env, detect/track LO targets out of thin air. We had to operate Nerpa to gain experience about the ins and outs of a nuclear submarine, and then we had to create a ATV vessel to test and demonstrate the realized technologies. We still haven't fully caught up with the world standard of a SSBN yet.

Why can't we get the S-400 in limited numbers, and gain experience about the integration, C4ISR, of the system, and in parallel first perfect BMD for protection of our cities and combine the knowledge gained from the BMD program and S-400 operations to create our very own XR-SAM ?