India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[vampyrbladez]

Limited ToT where Indian AESA and Kaveri engine will be used in Rafale. That is still not full TOT of critical technology. This is what I am talking about when it comes to Technology sharing with west. Cheap technology will be given but difficult ones will be refused.

Russia also doesn't give full ToT. That's why the Su 57 project / FGFA is in limbo.

India gave funds for developing Su30 at a time when Russia was in economic distress. So, it comes under co-development too. Hence Su30 has full ToT.

Nope. We basically do a screwdriver job here. Even nuts and rivets have to be imported along with titanium blocks.

 

[akk]

Russia also doesn't give full ToT. That's why the Su 57 project / FGFA is in limbo.



Nope. We basically do a screwdriver job here. Even nuts and rivets have to be imported along with titanium blocks.

As per my understanding, everything is being manufactured locally, but raw material including titanium blocks must be procured from Russia. Theoretically, India can manufacture on its own, but would be in breach of contract and warranty.

 

[Vijyes]

Russia also doesn't give full ToT. That's why the Su 57 project / FGFA is in limbo.

Did I say Russia gives full TOT everywhere? Russia can't spoonfeed if India acts like a parasite. Russia helps wholeheartedly and gives TOT in many areas but not all

Nope. We basically do a screwdriver job here. Even nuts and rivets have to be imported along with titanium blocks.

So what? India imports silly items to pay royalty payments. But once current order ends, India can make all.of it on its own. There is a difference between royalty charge and technology transfer

 

[akk]

Did I say Russia gives full TOT everywhere? Russia can't spoonfeed if India acts like a parasite. Russia helps wholeheartedly and gives TOT in many areas but not all


So what? India imports silly items to pay royalty payments. But once current order ends, India can make all.of it on its own. There is a difference between royalty charge and technology transfer

Not sure if it is entirely correct, else we could have ordered new su30 without involving Russia. Since we are still ordering new su30 with Russia, suggests that we need their permission even for local manufacturing.

 

[Craigs]

If the US blocks F-35's for Turkey, for all we know Turkey may end up getting the PAK-FA. In which case it'd be useless to us, because then there's nothing stopping Pakistan from getting juicy inside details.

Egypt has all the soviet/russian weapons we currently use. This did not stop us from buying those back in the day. Or do you think Egypt-Pak relation is less important than Turkey-Pak relationship? No matter which weapon we use, there will always be one or the other member of the Ummah that has it or will get it.

The only solution is to develop our own weapons which we can use exclusively without selling to anyone. But that is expensive - even the richest countries are not able to sustain that model. Then what is the alternative?

 

[Vijyes]

Not sure if it is entirely correct, else we could have ordered new su30 without involving Russia. Since we are still ordering new su30 with Russia, suggests that we need their permission even for local manufacturing.

We need to keep Russia in the loop to ensure we get the required upgrades like Super Sukhoi. We are doing this as a goodwill gesture. If we are forced to fight a war, we will manufacture Su30 enmasse. But if we are just manufacturing Su30 for operational needs, we will be nice to Russia and respect it for the assistance.

 

[akk]

We need to keep Russia in the loop to ensure we get the required upgrades like Super Sukhoi. We are doing this as a goodwill gesture. If we are forced to fight a war, we will manufacture Su30 enmasse. But if we are just manufacturing Su30 for operational needs, we will be nice to Russia and respect it for the assistance.

I am not sure if your contention is based on facts. Would like to know what others think. We have licence manufacturing for which we need a contract with Russia for any additional aircraft. These are manufactured in India, from raw material provided by Russia.... Looks a bit stupid but true as per my understanding. We cannot manufacture independently.

 

[Vijyes]

I am not sure if your contention is based on facts. Would like to know what others think. We have licence manufacturing for which we need a contract with Russia for any additional aircraft. These are manufactured in India, from raw material provided by Russia.... Looks a bit stupid but true as per my understanding. We cannot manufacture independently.

Is there a physical leverage? Or is it just trust based agreement on paper? Only physical leverage is absolute. Otherwise, it is an understanding of the requirement for war fighting by India and hence Indian independence during difficult times.

 

[vampyrbladez]

As per my understanding, everything is being manufactured locally, but raw material including titanium blocks must be procured from Russia. Theoretically, India can manufacture on its own, but would be in breach of contract and warranty.

Nope! Take a good look here.

Russia has provided HAL with 5,803 types of titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, and around 7,100 'standard components' including nuts, bolts, and rivets among other parts needed to assemble the aircraft.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...u-30mki-fighters-from-russia-for-new-squadron

 

[vampyrbladez]

Did I say Russia gives full TOT everywhere? Russia can't spoonfeed if India acts like a parasite. Russia helps wholeheartedly and gives TOT in many areas but not all


So what? India imports silly items to pay royalty payments. But once current order ends, India can make all.of it on its own. There is a difference between royalty charge and technology transfer

Russia considers India to be a cash cow! Unless India strong arms Russia's financial situation, we get no technology. Only way to get tech is to go for JVs and not outright purchases!

 

[Vijyes]

Nope! Take a good look here.



https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...u-30mki-fighters-from-russia-for-new-squadron

Yeah,the nuts, bolts etc are highly critical technology which India can't make. How many times should I tell that these are just excuses to pay royalty charge and not Russians withholding Technology?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Yeah,the nuts, bolts etc are highly critical technology which India can't make. How many times should I tell that these are just excuses to pay royalty charge and not Russians withholding Technology?

Russians make you buy useless crap inorder to facilitate extortion on an astronomical scale.

Royalties are paid whenever knock down kits are assembled.

 

[Vijyes]

Russians make you buy useless crap inorder to facilitate extortion on an astronomical scale.

Royalties are paid whenever knock down kits are assembled.

What kits? India makes critical components like Radar and engine in India without kits. Kits like nuts and bolts are not some high end Technology.

Yes, we have to pay Royalty for Technology

 

[vampyrbladez]

What kits? India makes critical components like Radar and engine in India without kits. Kits like nuts and bolts are not some high end Technology.

Yes, we have to pay Royalty for Technology

That is why you co-develop stuff using JV.

 

[bhramos]

After trade war, Trump wants to punish India for Russian defence purchases America is planning sanctions on India

 

[Shashank Nayak]

After trade war, Trump wants to punish India for Russian defence purchases America is planning sanctions on India

As said in the article, US wants India to buy from US... and they are ready to look the other way..

 

[Vijyes]

As said in the article, US wants India to buy from US... and they are ready to look the other way..

What will USA give in return? India doesn't need useless goods from USA. If USA is willing to give technology, then we can speak. Otherwise, it will be like India giving freebies to USA

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

After trade war, Trump wants to punish India for Russian defence purchases America is planning sanctions on India

Trump is going to sanction so many nations that it will end up sanctioning itself. Kashmir threat didn't work so he's trying this route.

Just throw a bone of USD 7-10 billion of non critical and non strategic orders to US corporations and they will themselves fight sanctions on India tooth and nail.

There's so much reliable and "no end user agreement" hardware that we can acquire from USA that won't only be reliable but top notch.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

What will USA give in return? India doesn't need useless goods from USA. If USA is willing to give technology, then we can speak. Otherwise, it will be like India giving freebies to USA

Not exactly... The intent for repeat order for P-8I comes to mind. P-8I are top notch... Chinese submarines are pretty naked these days, when they cross the Malacca straits... But, the US specifically wants India to buy their fighters... The fact that India whom the US tend to call an ally,, does not have a single frontline fighter from America. And this fact burns them no end..

 

[ezsasa]

Not exactly... The intent for repeat order for P-8I comes to mind. P-8I are top notch... Chinese submarines are pretty naked these days, when they cross the Malacca straits... But, the US specifically wants India to buy their fighters... The fact that India whom the US tend to call an ally,, does not have a single frontline fighter from America. And this fact burns them no end..

the "burning" part is a sales pitch.

the fact that they are not able to sell is a flaw in their sales pitch.
are there any adversarial countries which have American fighter jets against each other?
They don't want to let go of pakistan, and yet they want sell us their fighters? how does that even logically work.

same argument can be applied to THAAD, will america sell THAAD be deployed against F-16?

we should be saying publicly that we don't mind buying American fighter jets, as long as our enemies don't have them.