India Pakistan conflict along LoC and counter terrorist operations

[DivineLight]

Not so simple. The AF is pushing back because today there is zero integration between the 3 services communication networks and the Army has zero understanding of Air operations.

Read the article I posted above

That's the whole purpose of Integrated theatre command. Our forces have zero experience in working together. In future combat scenario, we have to pool all our assets under one command. . . . . .etc.

From what I am seeing since this whole debacle started, IAF focusing mostly on outraging about how dare they call us air artillery!

CDS quoting rule book and trying to tell how charter works. He is making legal statements. Folks use such language only when they are helpless and other party is not co-operating at all.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

That's the whole purpose of Integrated theatre command. Our forces have zero experience in working together. In future combat scenario, we have to pool all our assets under one command. . . . . .etc.

From what I am seeing since this whole debacle started, IAF focusing mostly on outraging about how dare they call us air artillery!

CDS quoting rule book and trying to tell how charter works. He is making legal statements. Folks use such language only when they are helpless and other party is not co-operating at all.

What was 1971??

 

[Jimih]

That's the whole purpose of Integrated theatre command. Our forces have zero experience in working together. In future combat scenario, we have to pool all our assets under one command. . . . . .etc.

From what I am seeing since this whole debacle started, IAF focusing mostly on outraging about how dare they call us air artillery!

CAS Bhadauria exposed the intellectual faultlines between the three armed services.

 

[DivineLight]

What was 1971??

How is it relevant? 1971 forces wouldn't have cried about integrated commands.

 

[rkhanna]

That's the whole purpose of Integrated theatre command. Our forces have zero experience in working together. In future combat scenario, we have to pool all our assets under one command. . . . . .etc.

From what I am seeing since this whole debacle started, IAF focusing mostly on outraging about how dare they call us air artillery!

CDS quoting rule book and trying to tell how charter works. He is making legal statements. Folks use such language only when they are helpless and other party is not co-operating at all.

Sorry but going to defend the AF (a little bit) here.

1) the whole way the MoD and Army is going through reform is simply put retarded.
2) does not give a whole lot of confidence on a CDS that is going to ramrode reform down someone's throat without jointness - Jointness has to be at the heart - including the rule book
3) yes the way things are panning out it does seem like the AF Operations will be directed by a Land Force that still works with equipment and strategy of th 1970s.
4) we have an Army oriented towards COIN and a Navy and AF oriented towards war.

We in India do things quiet often with zero R&D just highlighting key catch phrases.

IMO we are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Jimih]

What was 1971??

The war with Pakistan in 1971 was the first real military operation since Independence in which all three armed services were full participants.

But later Lt Gen JFR Jacob, GoC-in-C Eastern Army Command went on to record saying that, the three branches of the Indian Military went about doing their own stuff without any synergy. The war was fought in a Threesome fashion with no unified or accountable military authority in command.

 

[Jimih]

4) we have an Army oriented towards COIN and a Navy and AF oriented towards war.

Well put and yes this is the sad reality.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

How is it relevant? 1971 forces wouldn't have cried about integrated commands.

U said the forces don't have any experience in working together, and I just stated 1 example were they did. And integrated commands is still a far off thing till each force has a clear understanding of the others role, which will not come from promoting the arm u belong to but by having closed room discussions.

Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Coming up Big Turf War between Indian Army and IAF.....

defenceforumindia.com

Whither Jointmanship in India? - Indian Defence Review

‘Jointmanship’ in the history of warfare reached its maturity in World War II, especially during Operation Overlord involving landing by the allied forces o

www.indiandefencereview.com

“The 1971 war was the most decisive. It was an unprecedented military feat. The sheer number of prisoners captured was there to seen,” he said, adding that it was a perfect example of what synergy and jointmanship in war could achieve. Maj Gen Bakshi praised Lt Gen JFR Jacob, saying it was his idea to strike at Dhaka (then called Dacca).

1971 war was decisive: Army Chief

1971 war was decisive: Army Chief

www.google.com

 

[Jimih]

Waiting

 

[DivineLight]

Sorry but going to defend the AF (a little bit) here.

1) the whole way the MoD and Army is going through reform is simply put retarded.
2) does not give a whole lot of confidence on a CDS that is going to ramrode reform down someone's throat without jointness - Jointness has to be at the heart - including the rule book
3) yes the way things are panning out it does seem like the AF Operations will be directed by a Land Force that still works with equipment and strategy of th 1970s.
4) we have an Army oriented towards COIN and a Navy and AF oriented towards war.

We in India do things quiet often with zero R&D just highlighting key catch phrases.

IMO we are putting the cart before the horse.

1) Not defending Army here. They have their own holes.

2) If BiRa is army chief and making such comments on IAF, I would be also defending IAF. But he is CDS. Right now he is equal to cabinet secretary. You think he is shoving it down some one throat? The reality is if he couldn't do anything within Modi's 5 year tenure, the next government might ignore it and we will have to kiss good-bye to any reform. CDS is serious reform in our defence situation. We waited for 20 years since Kargil committee recommended it. He might be elevated to cabinet minister rank some time in future like NSA. We should take him seriously. Not the person. But the position.

3)No. That's biggest misconception they are peddling about theatre command. It won't be under army command. They will have theatre commanders. They have commanders from Airforce too. That's what CDS saying in the interview. They will have air component commanders.

4) I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement. COIN should be given to police forces. Army should be dealing with large scale operations and strategic stuff.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

Waiting

Here it's confirmed by deeni media


After so much success in past 10 days in predicting the fate of Islamic state of Pakistan... I make the following long term predictions:
1. By 31st Dec 2021... there would be at least 250 more Paki SF deaths (halaakat)
2. By 31st Dec 2021... Paki currency will cross 175 w.r.to US Dollar

 

[DivineLight]

U said the forces don't have any experience in working together, and I just stated 1 example were they did.

What about Kargil? The whole point of Kargil Review committee is to fix these joint operation issues. You want them to repeat another Kargil? Not saying we did the worst. But we could have done better.

And integrated commands is still a far off thing till each force has a clear understanding of the others role, which will not come from promoting the arm u belong to but by having closed room discussions.

What if he had closed room discussions and IAF is not co-operating with him? Also he is not promoting army. Please read what I said in previous post.

So therefore in addition to the air defence, you are also responsible for carrying out close air support and offensive air support. Now you need some kind of air component commander advising the theatre commanders. All that we are saying is that there will be air components commanders who will be advisers to the western theatre and the northern theatre. While the air defence management will be done by one entity as is being done today. But you have to have air component commanders for advising the theatre commanders.

 

[Indrajit]

Please read this article, Specially around CDS and new theatre commands

Address Cross-Training Before Integration For Theatre Commands

As per a recent report by Nitin Gokhale, published on the Bharatshakti website, higher defence reforms are on track in India with the likely formation of two integrated commands by August 2021. Nitin

bharatshakti.in

I don't disagree but this is a bit like bureaucrats asking to set up a committee to debate, the idea is to kick the ball further down and hope for something to change in between. If we have to get everything right before setting up theatre commands, we may never ever get them.

These things are not black and white, there are arguments both ways. However if it is government's decision to go down this direction, then the CDS has to do his job. The sky will fall is pretty standard of a reaction, it won't and things can always be sorted out. It is not just that the IAF has misgivings, one can ask what exactly the CNS will be doing after a maritime command is set up. At some point in the future, the same question will be asked of the CoAS. New roles will be found and defined is what one must presume.

I don't have an opinion on whether theatre commands are the way to go for us, I will defer to your knowledge on that. This however smells much of bureaucratic resistance to change that we see far too often and that's what I pointed out.

 

[mokoman]

A reality check.
Yes, not a very encouraging scenario.
But I believe it is a necessity that we shift from a totally defensive posture against China to an limited offensive stance.
They regularly intrude into our territory and try to brow beat, bully and intimidate us.
In a boxing match the boxer who only defends and parries and depends on the opponent to tire himself out may not always win. He needs to deliver counter punches also and attack in order to be more effective.

China is a big country and on paper has more resources but one big equaliser is the fact that regions like Tibet and Xinjiang are located quite far from their industrial heartland. They will be incurring a higher cost in supplying their army. Their logistics lines are stretched and vulnerable. It cannot be that they outdo us in all areas of operations. I am sure that the Indian Army has the upper hand against the PLA in many areas.

Unfortunately the reality is that a bully will be deterred more by the opponent who fights back and gives a bloody nose. We are not aiming to march into Beijing and Shanghai. We can certainly hope to have breakfast in Lhasa and Urumqi which are closer to us. The Chinese aim to have breakfast in Tawang, don't they. What is wrong with India also having claims on Tibet and Xinjiang.

The Chinese regularly claim Arunachal Pradesh as being part of South Tibet. And other Indian land as well. What are we claiming in China. Nil.
Why?. At least stake a claim to areas which were once part of greater India in the past. It will at least put some psychological pressure on the Chinese.

I hope India grows very fast economically in the near future. We need to turn the corner in defence R&D.

Regarding Gogra and Depsang, I hope we do succeed. This current situation is exactly the reason why we need to change our approach to the Chinese and the PLA. It won't be easy but it is also not impossible.

you are not wrong but I think we need proper foundation before we can make such moves.

i mean infrastructure and military modernisation.

we are lagging on both fronts.

There was one person who had the aukut you are asking for , he didnt say "koyi nahi gussha" , he asked his generals to throw out the chinese. IA then pushed , established forward posts in defacto chinese areas . i am talking about Nehru , dont have to tell you how that went.

honestly i dont care for aksai chin , real prize is Gilgit , we get a new neighbour , can cut off china - pakistan.

but yea its all wishfull thinking.

 

[Ayushraj]

This happens when leftist liberal capture your education system and are also who rules your country.
India communist captured education department in 1970s but this type of thing never happened in India since once Joseph Stalin said that indian communist are biggest idiots that he has ever met.

 

[Tactical Doge]

This happens when leftist liberal capture your education system and are also who rules your country.
India communist captured education department in 1970s but this type of thing never happened in India since once Joseph Stalin said that indian communist are biggest idiots that he has ever met.

View attachment 98003

It'd be hard to demoralise India as long as there are God fearing people who still believe in their roots and ideals
The roots have to attacked in order to start the subversion process, which in our case is difficult, since our religion and roots are intertwined
Aryan Dravidian divide was the first attempt to Subvert the country by attacking at the roots which united us

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Very informative video , looks like we have been helping afgans presidents since very long.

 

[Jimih]

honestly i dont care for aksai chin , real prize is Gilgit , we get a new neighbour , can cut off china - pakistan.

Yes.. in my opinion too real strategic prizes will be places opposite northern Ladakh in Baltistan.

And not the whole PoK but only Haji Pir pass and Haji Pir bulge just to cock a snook at the Pakis.

 

[Maitreya Shyam]

 

[Jimih]

This happens when leftist liberal capture your education system and are also who rules your country.
India communist captured education department in 1970s

Yes that was the pound of flesh Indira cut away from India in a gesture after getting support from Communists to form the Government in the 70's.

The Communists appointed all the writers, counsellors and authors for the new education policy of that time. They didnt demanded any ministeries in the govt. Such was their foresight.

After so many years we are still seeing the same effect.