India Pakistan conflict along LoC and counter terrorist operations

[Lancer]

Read What he said Through Mountain terrain it Will takes Weeks Which is 70 % of Valley

I said Skardu is 7-8 days through Kargil & Leh ( Which is strategically is very Important than Kashmir valley for India )

He is talking Chamb sector Well It Easy To say Than done against Hostile armed Population And PAK army
I Still Don't Know How Will We cross Khyper bass,FATA ,NWFP With Mechanized forces once We cross Sialkot sector

You're saying we're not in place to capture it at all, even in War Games, he's saying we can do it in a couple of weeks (that's after factoring in completely securing the area).

Those 2 statements are contradictory. Nobody said it'd be a cakewalk, but we are very much capable and in position to do it if we choose to do so.

The most difficult thing is probably gathering the political will and brazenness + silencing domestic traitors who were jumping up and down with hashtags of "Bring Him Back/No More War" the moment Abhinandan pressed the eject button.

 

[WARREN SS]

[/QUOTE]

You're saying we're not in place to capture it at all, even in War Games, he's saying we can do it in a couple of weeks (that's after factoring in completely securing the area).
Those 2 statements are contradictory. Nobody said it'd be a cakewalk, but we are very much capable and in position to do it if we choose to do so.

I said Fighting in POK is not Equal to Fighting in Chamb
you need 3:1 Ratio
I said We can capture Skardu & Gilgit in 7-8 days With whatever we have
I Can claim Anything hypothetically
Its Like Saying NE is Cake Walk For PLA all They have to Squeeze is 27 Km Stretch of chicken Neck

France was Most strongest Military power in whole Europe they though No One Will cross Maginot Line
and With British Forces They Will Annihilate Germans
@BON PLAN

Then Germany Did Surprise Blitzkrieg pincer Movement And Fritz Erich Georg Eduard von Manstein
Checkmated Allies

And We all Know after that Dunkirk evacuation, Fall of France

 

[aghamarshana]

Hypothetically If there Will Ever be a Land Swap Peace deal I can Let valley happily Go for SKardu And Gilgit

We aren't talking about Sri Lanka or Myanmar for a land swap 'peace' deal. Bakis claim the princely state of Kashmir in it's entirety (minus Shaksgam & Aksai). They want to hold the entire drainage area of Indus in the state for their water security and geopolitical leverage.

There's no point of swapping even an inch of Kashmir. If I were given a choice, I'd even claim Chitral and Wakhan which used to be under the suzerainty of Maharaja. Wakhan was 'created' as a buffer between Russian Empire and British India. It used to be under Mir of Hunza. And we all know the Mehtar of Chitral was a vassal of Maharaja.


We ain't giving an inch, sir. Infact we should get more than the claimed territory.

Why Because It Will Open us Again For central Europe that is Why there Threat Of Chinese Attack is impending Because It Will Cost Chinese Trillions $ of OBOR And There Dream to dominate Central asia and Europe

Central Asia. Yes, we can have access to it through GB. Albeit the three important districts for Chinese intervention in Pak are Hunza, Ghizer and Ganche(mostly mtns). Hunza is located above Gilgit and it is strategically more important to us. Also, the CPEC goes through Hunza. U get it, Chinis can never ever meet Bakis.

If at all a land swap is possible, we shd exchange KPK(minus Chitral which is part of GB) with Wakhan. A great deal for Afghans.

P.S: This is my 'Absolut' wisdom. Pls bear with me.

 

[Lancer]

I said Fighting in POK is not Equal to Fighting in Chamb
you need 3:1 Ratio
I said We can capture Skardu & Gilgit in 7-8 days With whatever we have
I Can claim Anything hypothetically
Its Like Saying NE is Cake Walk For PLA all They have to Squeeze is 27 Km Stretch of chicken Neck

France was Most strongest Military power in whole Europe they though No One Will cross Maginot Line
and With British Forces They Will Annihilate Germans
@BON PLAN

Then Germany Did Surprise Blitzkrieg pincer Movement And Fritz Erich Georg Eduard von Manstein
Checkmated Allies

And We all Know after that Dunkirk evacuation, Fall of France

I consider GB and all such areas to fall under PoJK - that's what I've been speaking about. If you consider only "Azaad Kashmir" to be PoK, then perhaps we have a misunderstanding.

 

[WARREN SS]

I consider GB and all such areas to fall under PoJK - that's what I've been speaking about. If you consider only "Azaad Kashmir" to be PoK, then perhaps we have a misunderstanding.

Technicaly they are but
We always take Gilgit baltistan part of Ladakh including Askai Chinese claim it as of There territory

And Jammu and Kashmir
Ladakhi's claim same that is why they claimed UT status for years

Culturally they are different
You will find Skardu & Galgit more relatable with Kargil
They have large shia population

 

[prasadr14]

I concur with the analysis that taking back POK will not be an easy task.
In recent history this has not happened.

Pakistan will fight with locals in POK against India and it will go on for a long time.

Even with a border and with thousands guarding it, terrorists still sneak into Kashmir and wreck, so, imagine what we would have to face in POK.

Need an out of the box solution, may be capture few strategic points, cut off supply chains and just sit on them, even that would be battle of attrition.
Not saying taking back POK is not a good idea but winning war and holding on to POK are totally 2 different things.

 

[Tridev123]

I concur with the analysis that taking back POK will not be an easy task.
In recent history this has not happened.

Pakistan will fight with locals in POK against India and it will go on for a long time.

Even with a border and with thousands guarding it, terrorists still sneak into Kashmir and wreck, so, imagine what we would have to face in POK.

Need an out of the box solution, may be capture few strategic points, cut off supply chains and just sit on them, even that would be battle of attrition.
Not saying taking back POK is not a good idea but winning war and holding on to POK are totally 2 different things.

There is one constant narrative in our country which believes in listing out all the negatives or cons for any offensive plans/courses of action considered by the nation.

While careful analysis and thinking is needed for any plan to succeed the excessive pessimism, worry and fretting will only demoralise the people. This phenomenon of ourselves being our worst enemies is peculiar to India. Doubts after doubts threaten decision making. We become paralysed with fear and doubts.

On the other hand our neighbour and eternal enemy Pakistan does not suffer from this disease. Be it Kargil or other military adventures they have taken the initiative. Of course they lost everywhere.
We do not need to follow Pakistan but at least should not display weakness in decision making.
We have held on to Siachen for over 20 years and we can hold on to any territory we capture in POK. Let there be no doubt. We should be ready to make sacrifices for the larger good of the nation. Learn a bit from the Israelis. Almost all of their territory is captured territory. Without it they would not even be a nation.

The Chinese capture territory everywhere without giving a damn.
I am not advocating foolish thought and action. But purposeful action. The eternal pessimists and nay sayers should control themselves and not demoralise the country.
I believe recapturing even the whole of POK is feasible and prove advantageous in the long run. There will be almost zero terrorism and proxy war in Kashmir after we achieve it.

 

[prasadr14]

There is one constant narrative in our country which believes in listing out all the negatives or cons for any offensive plans/courses of action considered by the nation.

While careful analysis and thinking is needed for any plan to succeed the excessive pessimism, worry and fretting will only demoralise the people. This phenomenon of ourselves being our worst enemies is peculiar to India. Doubts after doubts threaten decision making. We become paralysed with fear and doubts.

On the other hand our neighbour and eternal enemy Pakistan does not suffer from this disease. Be it Kargil or other military adventures they have taken the initiative. Of course they lost everywhere.
We do not need to follow Pakistan but at least should not display weakness in decision making.
We have held on to Siachen for over 20 years and we can hold on to any territory we capture in POK. Let there be no doubt. We should be ready to make sacrifices for the larger good of the nation. Learn a bit from the Israelis. Almost all of their territory is captured territory. Without it they would not even be a nation.

The Chinese capture territory everywhere without giving a damn.
I am not advocating foolish thought and action. But purposeful action. The eternal pessimists and nay sayers should control themselves and not demoralise the country.
I believe recapturing even the whole of POK is feasible and prove advantageous in the long run. There will be almost zero terrorism and proxy war in Kashmir after we achieve it.

Which territory has Chinese captured by waging war?
They tried to do that in Vietnam and look at how it went.

This is not about listing negatives, this is about having all our facts in as well as prepare strategy.
I am sure better people than us have planned this to a T.

 

[Bhadra]

If small TSD is so Great then what are other organizations doing? Nothing? Like

RAW
IB
MI

They are doing what they always do. Perhaps they are doing good except for MI.

However, they are not experts in gathering military intelligence. Gathering intelligence is a specialized field. Anyone who does not understand how a canal embankment is used for defences can not collect useful intelligence on canals. One needs specialisation to convert information clutter into intelligence. RAW and IB due to their nature and functions pay more attention to many other facets of intelligence and many a time gloss over military operational intelligence. For example, IB in J&K would like to focus on political leadership, organization and functionaries, political maneuvering, voting trends, the mood amongst people, counter espionage, center subversion ops etc . Military intelligence for them is only a by-product and they are not held accountable for it. RAW and IB are highly politically and power influence maneuverable organization controlled by IPS. They can be used anyway.

MI is bereft of funds, resources and favors as they are of no use to politicians and bureaucrats. Intelligence gathering always has by-products. If MI is empowered in its capabilities, they would certainly start knowing the power brokers, arms importers, politicians involved in bribery, bureaucratic conspiracies, smuggling on borders, drug running and so many other things. That can become very destabilizing and disturbing for the powerful and dishonest, more so as the general are less maneuverable and less reliable.

For RAW and IB, empowering MI means sharing resources, budget and money which any monopolistic organization would not like do. The biggest fear amongst them is empowering the general - means generals becoming more powerful in the bureaucratic power equation.

Indian bureaucracy is indeed very very rotten and politicians are very afraid of the military machine which is not politically maneuverable and has public support.

 

[Mikesingh]

Haha

Sometimes I feel we should not be publishing pictures and names of these terrorists.
They deserve to be 72’d in ignominy.

I think you're spot on! We need to treat them like the scum they are and not put them on a pedestal.

 

[Defcon 1]

I consider GB and all such areas to fall under PoJK - that's what I've been speaking about. If you consider only "Azaad Kashmir" to be PoK, then perhaps we have a misunderstanding.

Please stop using the term Azad Kashmir. If we can't bust pakistani propaganda on this forum, how will we bust it in the outside world?

 

[Bhadra]

There is one constant narrative in our country which believes in listing out all the negatives or cons for any offensive plans/courses of action considered by the nation.

While careful analysis and thinking is needed for any plan to succeed the excessive pessimism, worry and fretting will only demoralise the people. This phenomenon of ourselves being our worst enemies is peculiar to India. Doubts after doubts threaten decision making. We become paralysed with fear and doubts.

On the other hand our neighbour and eternal enemy Pakistan does not suffer from this disease. Be it Kargil or other military adventures they have taken the initiative. Of course they lost everywhere.
We do not need to follow Pakistan but at least should not display weakness in decision making.
We have held on to Siachen for over 20 years and we can hold on to any territory we capture in POK. Let there be no doubt. We should be ready to make sacrifices for the larger good of the nation. Learn a bit from the Israelis. Almost all of their territory is captured territory. Without it they would not even be a nation.

The Chinese capture territory everywhere without giving a damn.
I am not advocating foolish thought and action. But purposeful action. The eternal pessimists and nay sayers should control themselves and not demoralise the country.
I believe recapturing even the whole of POK is feasible and prove advantageous in the long run. There will be almost zero terrorism and proxy war in Kashmir after we achieve it.

I appreciate your concerns and enthusiasm.
India got Independence in 1947. This 2020 and we have gone through a period of governing ourselves for 72 years.
Now look at the state at the Independence =
* The territory was highly fragmented with so many princely states which needed to be amalgamated into the mainstream.
* India inherited a highly fragmented population especially after partition, fragmented and divided polity with separatist movements in Tamilnadu, Kerala, Hydrabad, Goa, and NorthEast. So many languages, so many regional aspirations and so much of political diversity.

* Almost a bankrupt post-WWII economy, such a scarcity of Capital and food, water, and infrastructure, no industry and bankrupt agriculture.

* Virtually no demarcated and peaceful border anywhere including the seas and military threats emanating from all directions.

In the above conditions, it was obviously mandatory that the rulers of the country pay sole attention to national integration and national consolidation. It was natural that the focus was internal cohesion while holding on to and maintaining external territorial integrity. Indian Armed Forces played a very decisive role in this though Hyderabad and Goa actions, Operations in Mizoram, Tripura, Nagaland and Manipur, Then Punjab, Assam and J&K. Indian Army was able to reach McMahon Line in North East and maintain stability in Ladakh, Ward off Pakistani aggression four times without any loss of territory.

73 years of independence in the history of a nation is a very tiny period as national consolidation takes centuries together. Take the example of USA and look at the time they took in national consolidation. Look at Germany itself. Look at Soviet union. Having started in 1917 they collapsed within 70 years.

So do not fret my dear Good soul. We have done well. Pakistan has lost half of itself plus some more. Chinese expansion can be reasonably be stopped.

We are still going through a period of national and internal consolidation which by no means is an easy target like China but achieve we will. After all we are one third of human existence. Churning for national consolidation is going on and Pakistan has also jumped into the fray of stopping our national integration.

Our war, for the time being, is with ourselves and with those internal and external forces who do not want India as one. Pakistan is but a small actor in it. Pakistan and China would cease to be any threat once we reach a reasonable level of internal cohesion. We then need not be aggressive. Pakistan will collapse under its own contradictions.

Stay right and fight tight. The next battle would be in Khurasan around Kandhar... and Liberation of Holy Dharmic Lhasa.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Aksai chin related posts moved here https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/ceding-aksai-chin-not-an-option-for-india.51235/page-14

 

[patriots]

PParadon me
Sometimes I believe,we are unable to do with. China what Pakistan does with us....
Pakistan is a smll nation still confront s with us
But we are unable to do the same with China
Everyday China soilders are trespassing
Thier helo is coming nearer to loc
Sometimes crossed too

 

[Skyh3ck]

Land swap.. ??? We swap land with ourvown land..

Wow

A third grade country took half of our state and still taunt us opnely and show us middle finger..

We must take back all POK, Gurudwara, Hinglaj and other important vreligious places...

Remember Indus valley was our birthplace.. our name Hindu, India comes from River Sindhu.. it's our identity..

 

[aghamarshana]

Land swap.. ??? We swap land with ourvown land..

Wow

A third grade country took half of our state and still taunt us opnely and show us middle finger..

We must take back all POK, Gurudwara, Hinglaj and other important vreligious places...

Remember Indus valley was our birthplace.. our name Hindu, India comes from River Sindhu.. it's our identity..

And the people? What to do there? We never absorbed East Pakistani territory despite us being at a position to carve a chunk out of it- be it at Chittagong tracts(which would give our N.E access to BoB) or Rangpur Div(would have enlarged the Siliguri Corridor). We fear refugees. Particularly those who are hostile to our citizenry.

 

[Mikesingh]

Balance security, rights, says SC as it rejects 4G for J&K. Cites ‘outside forces'

Declining pleas for restoration of 4G Internet services in Jammu and Kashmir, the Supreme Court Monday said the “peculiar circumstances” in the Union Territory required “delicate balancing” of “national security concerns and human rights”. It also underlined that “outside forces are trying to infiltrate the borders and destabilize the integrity of the nation”.

A plea was filed by ‘Foundation for Media Professionals’ which had sought sought restoration of high-speed internet in Jammu and Kashmir in view of the COVID-19 situation. The J&K administration, however, sought dismissal of the plea, insisting that high-speed internet will enable the spread of fake news/rumours and transfer of heavy data files (audio/video files) will become prevalent and may be utilised by terror outfits for incitement as also in planning attacks.

The bench of Justices N V Ramana, R Subhash Reddy and B R Gavai ordered constitution of a Special Committee, headed by the Union Home Secretary, to “immediately determine the necessity of the continuation of” limiting mobile Internet to 2G speed in the region.

Balance security, rights, says Supreme Court as it rejects 4G for J&K

Cites ‘outside forces’, orders panel under Union Home Secy to take a call

indianexpress.com

Another slap on the faces of the Lutyens brigade and the Left liberals!!​

 

[Anikastha]

PParadon me
Sometimes I believe,we are unable to do with. China what Pakistan does with us....
Pakistan is a smll nation still confront s with us
But we are unable to do the same with China
Everyday China soilders are trespassing
Thier helo is coming nearer to loc
Sometimes crossed too

Chinese dont have trojans or cocksuckers....while India has more than enough of em......

 

[WARREN SS]

And the people? What to do there? We never absorbed East Pakistani territory despite us being at a position to carve a chunk out of it- be it at Chittagong tracts(which would give our N.E access to BoB) or Rangpur Div(would have enlarged the Siliguri Corridor). We fear refugees. Particularly those who are hostile to our citizenry.

Adding Pok or Even Skardu gilgit Means No Chance of BJP ever coming to power in J&K
Jammu Will Also become minority state after adding mirpur And Muzaffarabad

We need a real displacement plan To control Political demographics Or We Will be facing a Next Pakistan crisis
Because Muslim majority Will be close To 80-85 %
And that is real threat that Western Countries can exploit in future

 

[aghamarshana]

Adding Pok or Even Skardu gilgit Means No Chance of BJP ever coming to power in J&K
Jammu Will Also become minority state after adding mirpur And Muzaffarabad

We need a real displacement plan To control Political demographics Or We Will be facing a Next Pakistan crisis
Because Muslim majority Will be close To 80-85 %
And that is real threat that Western Countries can exploit in future

Not if we quickly decouple the retrieved territory. Assume this scenario - we get back GB where Baltistan will join Ladakh UT which it traditionally is a part of and Gilgit Agency will be made another UT with representation in Parliament, deradicalisation camps and more 'Sadhbhavana' kinda activities.
The real problem is with PoJK, not PoL. Mirpur and Muzaffarabad are hotbeds of Baki sympathisers due to massive influx of Potoharis. It is 'Kashmir' only in name. We already plan to do delimitation.