India Pakistan conflict along LoC and counter terrorist operations

[Indo-Aryan]

Hit some place in Pakistan with blastic missile to show the intent.

 

[ThE BrOkEn HeArT]

Don't worry guys. Trust on our boys. They will come out as victorious as always.

 

[Knowitall]

We have lost 11 bravehearts in 2 days won't say much today will just wait for the response if there is any in planning.

 

[Jaymax61]

In the current scenario, the political leadership will never deter AF to take punitive actions coz this govt is not run by "AMAN KI AASHA" folks . Time and again Modi or any RM at helm publicly told that Army has given full independence to act or react or no more "Counting of Bullets" while retaliating. What else do you want?
I am not blaming or demeaning AF either; they will do with whatever resources they have to retaliate and avenge the deaths of its personnel. But I don't support the line of thinking in which invasion of PoK & its occupation is the only option for responding this terror attack.
Like it or Not,Waging War without any clear strategic objective will give you more pain than any relief.

Point is - Army is not a decision centre. It is a tool to enforce the will of the Govt.

The WHAT and WHEN is the responsibility of the Govt. Once the WHAT and WHEN is figured out, the Army can take care of the HOW.

 

[Gandaberunda]

Don't worry guys. Trust on our boys. They will come out as victorious as always.

They have always come out victorious. No doubt in that and will never.
Will that solved infiltration problem? No
Will that solved killing if our soldiers? No
Politicians using army like a bait should stop. After Feb 27 last year was disappointing not to retaliate and now we're back again square in a year and there are no elections for any concetre actions to take place

 

[Jaymax61]

Pakistan is back to what it does best - Brinkmanship.

We outgunned them in artillery, they launched new terror strikes. They will keep on testing us knowing well that India will not go to war.

Now question for our leadership is - do we keep using guns to hit them across the line or do we raise the bar. Our surgical strikes, air strikes, fire missions are good for PR. But we are blowing up roughly made terror camps which are up and running in a few days after each hit.

Until we put take out the source we will never be rid of this plague.

 

[XR SAM]

Bro,
There are two main ways to counter the latest offensive by napaki pigs. Either we hit them directly conventionally using our army or we hit them using proxies. If in this Corona Virus situation a direct military escalation is inappropriate then we need to pay the b**st**ds back using their tactics.

AN ATTACK BY OUTFITS LIKE TTP OR BLA IN Islamabad, Rawalpindi or Lahore killing a HVT like a Major Gen/Lt. Gen would make them shit in their pants. The Punjabi army pigs are very sensitive to attacks in Pak Punjab.

We need to create assets in Porkland who can execute attacks like these. An ambush in Pak Punjab killing a dozen Pork army men would really shake them.
Or at least a big bomb blast in Lahore.
They will try to retaliate but we must manage and prevent it.

Jai Mata Di
Jai Hind

Many people thinks only our internal actions brought down Khalistani terrorism in Punjab which was not. Declassified R&AW files tells us about the project that was launched at that time, CIT-X & CiT-Y. Second team was tasked to pay back Pak in same coin. Every action of Pakistan on Punjab was retaliated by this highly motivated covert squad in mainland Pakistan. They ran sustained bombing campaign throughout Pakistan, those blasts was not of high intensity which was deliberately done to avoid international attention, but simultaneous bombing in different cities which brought Pakistan on its knees. This forced the ISI to negotiate with R&AW that they will not interfere in Punjab anymore provided that R&AW also stops it's operations inside Pakistan.
This provided us valuable experience of how to deal with proxy war. And rather than making RAW network more strong inside Pakistan, successive governments of Moraji Desai and Gujral stopped all covert operations inside Pakistan because R&AW operations are bad for India Pakistan peace. We are still paying the price of that nonsense, helplessly watching Pakistan waging proxy war at will in Kashmir without having the capability to pay back in same coin.

Totally agree we must stop this charade of what is commonly known as WHAMP (Winning Hearts And Minds of People) in the Valley. However doing what the Pakis are doing in FATA/Waziristan/Balochistan is a non starter where we are concerned. They have the advantage of counter narratives so well woven into the fabric of lies and deceit that they have managed to convince the Pakis themselves and the world that terrorists, the Afghan Army as well as the Indian Army are being hammered by their army which they contend has been blessed by none other than Allah himself! And the sheeple have fallen for this narrative hook, line, and sinker!

We must remember that Pak is run by the army, and for the army. An army that has a state! So there is complete media blackout in areas where they are committing genocide themselves like in Balochistan but no one raises a finger because no independent journalist is allowed to go there. The Pak ISPR trots out their usual fantasies which needless to say are far from the truth. So the world thinks all is hunky dory and that there are no HR violations happening out there.

Tanks, F-16s, artillery and attack choppers have been used there to quell an insurgency by Baloch freedom fighters. But has anyone objected or any HR organization done anything other than a cursory mention? Try that in India and see what happens.

We need to learn a thing or two from these Pakis on how to conduct info warfare and propaganda, spheres in which they are past masters and where we are sadly lacking. Until that happens we will always be at the receiving end.

Pakistan is openly using Tanks and helicopters on its civilian population for years..Have we seen a single article on international media condemning this? Now just use helicopter gunship

 

[Kumata]

Guys,

Hang on, whining on here will do nothing... govt have noticed everything already.. responses are not done in Josh , there is tons of planning involved and than you need to keep the surprise element as well. Remeber that Navy have still not joined the Mela yet.

wait ..we took out sweet time when Uri or balakot happened .. this time also some thing will happen but it will be some where else for sure.. i am banking on IN this time

 

[piKacHHu]

You are completely out of order...
1. If our economy doesn't allow to Do anything then Pakistan will doesn't qualify to hold a pistol
2. Conventional war maximum will be for 5-7 days UN and other countries will intervene and starts pressurising before war brokers out.
3. Taking back Azad Kashmir is not for money or any resource benefits it's strategic importance for Army and piece of land (our) and will severely cripple Chinese CPEC and sub continent diplomacy.also Islamabad kahuta nuclear lab are 80km from IB... We will be breathing down their neck
4. All the terr0sist factories run in so called Azad Kashmir and definitely we can wipe them out if we determine to take back our land. Pak Jabi population will definitely flee to main porkland rest sympathisers can be eliminated hook or crook
5. Innovative and strategies? Huh how much ever you innovate porks only strategy is to infiltrate terr0sist through porous LoC. We can't eliminate infiltration completely owing to tough terrain of valley again because of our land occupied by paks (Azad Kashmir) which they're are comfortably exploiting keeping us engaged.
Till LoC or Pak remains infiltration will keep on happening that means our soldiers will be killed.
Only innovation attack Pak Punjab make em pay for it or else take back PoK and finish this LoC saga for once.

Hope IA is listening and act upon your wish-list. Save this reply for future, if it happens in a year or so, I would be happy in proven wrong !

 

[Suryavanshi]

Don't worry guys. Trust on our boys. They will come out as victorious as always.

I trust the boys but I dont trust the administration anymore.
Boys were using flares to hunt the terrorist that was giving their positions away.
We cant take advantage of the dark using some NVGs because some babu and Generail isn't getting his lions share.

Generails and Babus will think of getting NVGs when Terrorist start using them, until then Generail will Fill his Cup with Rum.

Someone is responsible for incompetence and even on this forum people refuse to take their name. Not to mention an apologist that goes rampant on this forum.

Bhai kon kar raha he?
Kon responsible he?
Kuch hisab he ki nahi?

 

[Gandaberunda]

Guys,

Hang on, whining on here will do nothing... govt have noticed everything already.. responses are not done in Josh , there is tons of planning involved and than you need to keep the surprise element as well. Remeber that Navy have still not joined the Mela yet.

wait ..we took out sweet time when Uri or balakot happened .. this time also some thing will happen but it will be some where else for sure.. i am banking on IN this time

Indian Navy will involve only if War breaks out and IN will be the first to strike Pak among 3 armed forces to efficiently provide naval blockade for Karachi.
Not sure Modi will declare war
Yes IN assets are already involved in reconnaissance like P8I Neptune that's it

 

[Hellfire]

So you bringing Nuclear factor? Did Pak considered nuclear factor doing kargill?
No need to clear anything when you bring nukes likes porks bring in every discussion. Alslo international community will intervene before a full fledge war is declare or started and highly pressurise to not even use ballistic misslies let alone nukes.

The whole interactions starts with the under, highlighting the pertinent point:

The point is why aren't we thinking to do 65 now?
Open the front and finish them. We can have huge leverage over pakis just touching IB in Sialkot sector

And as quoted by me:

With what aim?
What intent?
And what exit strategy?

Your reply to above

Aim- capturing territory inducing irreparable damage
Intent: captured territory can be exchanged for POK or strategic pases like Haji pir
Exit strategy- no need to exit. Did we exit in 65? UN will interfere before we exit or cease fire will be declared.
Pakistan jugler vein is Punjab not Kashmir

So I asked your views on what are the expected implications for India.

Okay, let's explore further. Now carefully, think it out.

Your aim:

Territory captured.

Now answer under heads:

What is irreparable damage? What is the condition that your army will face? What is the social condition of territories under your occupation? What are your duties as occupying force

Your Intent:

Exchanged territory.

What is the response to how the local population of PoJ&K will react? What is the longer term effect of this exchange? Will it end the conflict and attempts by neighbour to wage asymmetrical war against you?

and no exit strategy? So you will keep your troops in captured enemy territory forever? At what economic, political, diplomatic and human resource costs?

To which you answered as under:

For all your questions you need to read history how IA managed in 1965 for over a year captured Pak territory or after 1971;how Indian govt fed 93k POV for almost 2 years. We have done it before then definitely we can do it now. This ain't new to us.

I fail to find how does this answer the basic question of implications arising out of the action as suggested by you. So I tried again.

Obviously when you bring feeding of 93K POWs ... it becomes a sentence implying administrative and logistics angle. Do correct me here if those are not administrative and logistics concerns under the Administrative Branch and Quarter Master Branch in Army (Known as A & Q Branch respectively in army). I am willing to relearn about army.

Anyways, so my post as under:

I am not talking logistics here. Questions are very clearly laid out under the heads as given, I am talking security implications here.

So, awaiting your answers, not in terms of logistics of feeding etc, but implications.

To which a rather strange answer came out. No attempt at clarifying what clearly sounded like a logistics issue.

So 1965 captured territory was logistics? Or feeding? Haji Pir pass was returned back? Did IA had security implications? 30 km ingress in dessert AmarKot area in Sindh was returned back after a year was it feeding? Logistics? Or security implications????

Obviously realizing that we had diverged, I broadened the implication scope to give cues.

Simple answer will suffice.

Can you or can you not, define clearly, the military and security implications of the earlier mentioned aims and intents?

Yet again, a deflection.

Earlier aims and intent was clear to stretch Pak army and induce irreparable damage for operation gibraltar in Kashmir and ease down the insurgent pakis
IA opened new front and aim was to capture Lahore for the same and was almost successful when cease fire was declared IA sitting 10 miles away from Lahore.
Only difference is the objective was defensive offence for Pak army insurgency in Kashmir this time it will be a preempt objective for Pak sponsored terrorism

To which, again I was trying to get you back to your first statement which I quoted, as quoted here too, above. I re-quote you sir:

"The point is why aren't we thinking to do 65 now?
Open the front and finish them......"

I am talking in present terms. Why are you so intent in talking of 1965 where you did not have an adversary with nukes and willingness to use them, asymmetric warfare in own territories - just to name two issues.

If you are advocating capture of Pakistan, then the bare minimum expected on a defence forum is your ability to address the specific military and security implications arising thereof.

I have even gone on to subdivide the heads of any military action taken by India with your aims and intents. And asked for an exit strategy which you say is not needed.

Shall I post the questions again? Or were they unclear?

To which your post as being quoted here as a reply to.

Strange.

 

[Hellfire]

Not seen but can Tell you that were trained by SSGN, AND SSG FOR this particular operation!!! And most of the PA soldiers join them after they retire from th PA

Exactly. So to assume that these cadres are run of the mill, is plain stupidity, a luxury best enjoyed by chairborne warriors.

 

[Holy Triad]

Apart from three CRPf personnel, there are reports that terrorists even killed a specially abled child.

Official confirmation awaited.

 

[Kumata]

Indian Navy will involve only if War breaks out and IN will be the first to strike Pak among 3 armed forces to efficiently provide naval blockade for Karachi.
Not sure Modi will declare war
Yes IN assets are already involved in reconnaissance like P8I Neptune that's it

Did not we thought of same with IAF as well before balakot happened. we need to wait IMO

 

[ezsasa]

Which proper debate. You mean the likes of JNU, Jadavpur University, or the ones at JLF where some leftist Catarinas are amassed outside to shout slogans.

We are a country where military science and strategic affairs have never been taught even at academic institutions in spite of the country and society being subjected to various forms of warfare, attacks, and assaults. At Independence and even subsequently, not even a single politician of any stature had been near a gun or uniform. The British did not allow Indians to be commissioned into Indian Forces till about 1935 and when they did it - it was far logistics and Services,

Educations imparted by the Military Education / Training institution are not given academic status/recognition. MoD is run by Babus expert in Petroleum and another one in fertilizers.

Tell me where, how, and in what manner to conduct a public debate on the issue of strategic national affairs? It should not be done in the partisan manners of Sekhar Ghupta or Burqa Dutta...... Even older names like Inder Malhotra, Girilal Jain, Kuldeep Nair, MJ Akbar and others have only played roles of Army baiters...

Within this forum itself, there is no dearth of conscious and deliberate baiters.

You are arguing with yourself, you are arguing against an imaginary argument which has not been presented by me.

 

[Gandaberunda]

Did not we thought of same with IAF as well before balakot happened. we need to wait IMO

So you say Indian navy will attack Pakistan in PoK? If yes can you explain how?

 

[Knowitall]

So you say Indian navy will attack Pakistan in PoK? If yes can you explain how?

I think what he wants to say is that our navy wil strike their naval targets karachi port or ships etc.

 

[Tridev123]

Whenever hostilities broke out Pak soldiers flee the posts...there are many empty posts of Pak across LoC no point of occupying as it doesn't pave any advantage. Like point 5353 in kargil Pak holds that peak but dominated by 3 sides of Indian posts by 5070 peak n tiger hill across LoC and they vacated the post years back. We need to hold vast areas like siachin glacier or strategic passes like Haji pir (only war can) or Aknoor.
Or else have to look at down south sir creek and Sindh desert areas....
Grabbing land in PoK over mountains inch by inch is tough ask of negligible significance. Sustaining troopers
is difficult

It will be a self defeating idea if we begin to question the utility of gaining additional land in J&K. The Chinese took Aksai Chin which was a barren piece of land.

The battle is also Psychological. Any gain of territory by us will demoralise the Pak Army. We only need to leak the info in the press and on social media so that the Pak public reads it. It will create enormous pressure on the Pak army to respond. If they don't respond they lose face. If they respond they will have to fight a conventional war with a much stronger India. That outcome is a known. They will get f**c*d up.

Taking territory on the international border in Gujarat or elsewhere may get the nuclear angle in focus. All of J&K is Indian territory as per our Parliamentary resolution. We do not recognise Pak control over any part of J&K. So the situation is different from Gujarat in the case of Kashmir. We are fully justified in taking back our land.

Of course if there is total war borders anywhere do not count and we will go into Pakistan from all sides.

 

[Gandaberunda]

I think what he wants to say is that our navy wil strike their naval targets karachi port or ships etc.

That will be official declaration of WAR which Modi will not order