India Pakistan conflict along LoC and counter terrorist operations

shade

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I think Oil is the single largest contributor behind political Islam and Islamic terrorism.
I mean look closely into the Middle eastern countries like KSA, Iran, Iraq what do they even have other than OIL? No Arable land, No Vegetation, no Tourist industry, no industry.

Once the OIL dries we will see their real aauqat
Yes it is, modern political Islam is mainly a desi momin/Pakistani product, but it was watered by Oil moneys all these decades, and now it is a monster.
Arabs were Socialist Authoritarian 50 years ago.
Up until recently Turkey was secular and used to surpress influence of Mullahs and Islam.
The Iranian Shah again wanted to suppress the Mullahdom and Westernize his country.
Afghanistan was on its way to become Communist.

No pious Arab monarchies having Oil money === no epidemic of Jihad today.
 

shade

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Another reason for the rise of political Islam is the need for Legitimacy of rule among Arab monarchs, the rise of Arab Nationalism and Ba'athist parties from Libya to Iraq must have caused some serious Thobe and Kaftan shivering in Riyadh, Abu Dhabi etc etc some decades ago
 

Sentimental Patriot

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Another reason for the rise of political Islam is the need for Legitimacy of rule among Arab monarchs, the rise of Arab Nationalism and Ba'athist parties from Libya to Iraq must have caused some serious Thobe and Kaftan shivering in Riyadh, Abu Dhabi etc etc some decades ago
Rise of political Islam was also accelerated by the Americans. They used Pakistan as a launching point of their proxy war against the Soviets and Afghanistan and after the Soviets withdrew, these fighters were used by Pakistan in Kashmir, Islam being the motivating factor.

1979 Iranian Revolution also had a lot to do with it. Palestinians used to be secular left-wingers at one point before Islamisation set in.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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This anecdote is from the mid 80s, the India-Pakistan relationship wasn't that bad during those times, the Kashmir insurgency had yet to start.

Things are very different now of course, you can't be naive with these Pakistanis anymore.
The Kashmiri thing started because that became their only choice of attack and the viability of insurgency was still being studied and perfected.if the Pakistanis knew about it before they would have switched to it before.before they had an economy and /or military where they could devise and think of a purely military strategy to gain territory.no the army is primarily a blocking force/defensive and secondary purpose is to attack and that too will be viable in only limited territory grabs if any.

Maybe the only commonality is the emotionality of old generation associated with bolly films that new age Billy's might be trying to keep alive.good riddance to it and I hope we become a more Cool and calculated people generally as that is ideal balanced attitude to keep up a great power country.
 

Sentimental Patriot

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That is because ethnicity is secondary, MAZHAB is first, which is why these fools are the only ones on the planet that take the Ummah concept seriously, no other Muslims do this.
The reason they LARP as muh Arab, Pathan, Farsi, Turki, Mongol etc is because it is an escape mechanism for 74 years of failure, their country being bisected, and never being able to conquer Kashmir no matter how much they try.
They are a country of losers, made up of tribes who are losers and ghulams of whichever Central Asian savage of the day decided to conquer their land, so to deal with this insecurity, they claim descent to these "conquerors" so supposedly by extension they are conquerors too, "1 Muslim == 20 hindoos" etc etc.
It is cognitive dissonance from their current reality.

Also lol @ the Aman ka Tamasha new dude.
They also name their missiles after people who ravaged their lands for centuries.

 

Sentimental Patriot

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The Kashmiri thing started because that became their only choice of attack and the viability of insurgency was still being studied and perfected.if the Pakistanis knew about it before they would have switched to it before.before they had an economy and /or military where they could devise and think of a purely military strategy to gain territory.no the army is primarily a blocking force/defensive and secondary purpose is to attack and that too will be viable in only limited territory grabs if any.

Maybe the only commonality is the emotionality of old generation associated with bolly films that new age Billy's might be trying to keep alive.good riddance to it and I hope we become a more Cool and calculated people generally as that is ideal balanced attitude to keep up a great power country.
They learned about the effectiveness of insurgency from their support of the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

They had an established infrastructure of insurgents and so used it in Kashmir, the alleged rigging of the 1987 Kashmir elections also didn't help.
 

shade

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They also name their missiles after people who ravaged their lands for centuries.

For all Ummah Chummah there is not one Indian Muslim king of any linguistic group or of any jaat of worth is found.
Not one.
Who else will they name their missiles after? for 1000 years these people were subservient to detritus of Central Asia, and could not produce even one dynasty to take and hold power from the foreigner.
Such is the power of the Mazhab i guess.
Any alien bakri-chod from the Steppe can come and rule over you in the name of the mazhab, and you accept it
 

ezsasa

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You are absolutely right

Pakistanis first tried to differentiate by saying we are not Indian, then we are from Arab decent, and now they are flirting with Turkic ancestry. In the end they will have to acknowledge their Indian heritage only because they would be the most comfortable with it.

I have been in marketing for a long time, and I know how difficult it is to create differentiation. Suppose you are selling a commodity like Atta. Atta is atta so how to create a difference? yet ITC has created the Aashirvaad brand, and selling this brand at a premium. Similarly India and Pakistan are the same people, just like say the Belgians and the Dutch. Yet they are comfortable in their own identities because they transformed from tribes to a nation from the treaty of Westphalia in the mid 1600s, which is 3 centuries ago.

Pakistan, as an identity is only 74 years old, while the Indian heritage is several thousand years. So give them time.
Coupta’s today’s video covered almost everything that I would have given you as a response if our conversation had continued.

Only one additional info I would to his video, is that sipah-e-Sahaba did the first terror attack in Pakistan post afghan war, much before mujahideen were sent to Kashmir from pak. the ripple created by that bombing, we are still riding the wave even today, and there is no end in sight.

you can check sipri data for exact month and year of that bombing.

 

cannonfodder

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I think Oil is the single largest contributor behind political Islam and Islamic terrorism.
I mean look closely into the Middle eastern countries like KSA, Iran, Iraq what do they even have other than OIL? No Arable land, No Vegetation, no Tourist industry, no industry.

Once the OIL dries we will see their real aauqat
May be in the past, but today there wealth is invested in high tech companies in US. KSA alone would have investment in atleast 1-2 Trillion + in wall street etc. Don't have exact numbers though but in general agree with your post.
 

Shankar Deb

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That is because ethnicity is secondary, MAZHAB is first, which is why these fools are the only ones on the planet that take the Ummah concept seriously, no other Muslims do this.
The reason they LARP as muh Arab, Pathan, Farsi, Turki, Mongol etc is because it is an escape mechanism for 74 years of failure, their country being bisected, and never being able to conquer Kashmir no matter how much they try.
They are a country of losers, made up of tribes who are losers and ghulams of whichever Central Asian savage of the day decided to conquer their land, so to deal with this insecurity, they claim descent to these "conquerors" so supposedly by extension they are conquerors too, "1 Muslim == 20 hindoos" etc etc.
It is cognitive dissonance from their current reality.

Also lol @ the Aman ka Tamasha new dude.
Hay I am not new, I am ancient :)
 

Shankar Deb

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it’s not just about radicalisation, does the Pakistani civilian society have sizeable influential group among them to provide a counter balance to their mainstream negative narratives on hindus and India. And worse whoever tries to balance the debate over there gets shot at or targeted.

I think answer is no, they don’t have checks and balances from sliding down a slippery slope when time comes for people to choose. What do you think?

In India, we can confidently say there are checks and balances built into the society and governance systems irrespective of whichever ideology is in power.
Absolutely valid point.

Yet at the elections the radical groups can muster only 5% of the votes. This surely means something.
 

Bharatiye

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I however have a different take on the subject. I want every one to WANT to be associated with us. Would you object to Nepal, or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka wanting to claim an Indian heritage? The biggest Hindu temple complex in the world is in Cambodia, and if they claim to have an Indian heritage, would you object?
Will definitely object if Paxtan or Bangladesh claim Indian heritage or call themselves Indian. No need to drag our reputation for aman ki tamasha.
 

ezsasa

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Absolutely valid point.

Yet at the elections the radical groups can muster only 5% of the votes. This surely means something.
Like I said, radicalisation is a different matter. We can take it up separately.

My fundamental question is whether Pakistani civil society has a strong component of counter narrative to arrest the slide into religious fundamentalism?

for example: Atish Taseer’s father tried to be such a counter force and bring a balance by speaking in favour of that Christian woman who was jailed for blasphemy, and he got shot and his killer got celebrated as a hero. how many meaningful protests happen against the killer? None.
 

Knowitall

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Absolutely valid point.

Yet at the elections the radical groups can muster only 5% of the votes. This surely means something.
This means nothing.

This reminds of that old cartoon where an extremist says I will kill you if you don't believe in my views and the moderate says this radical will kill you if you don't believe in my views.

This is what happens in pakistan.
 

Shankar Deb

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Coupta’s today’s video covered almost everything that I would have given you as a response if our conversation had continued.

Only one additional info I would to his video, is that sipah-e-Sahaba did the first terror attack in Pakistan post afghan war, much before mujahideen were sent to Kashmir from pak. the ripple created by that bombing, we are still riding the wave even today, and there is no end in sight.

you can check sipri data for exact month and year of that bombing.

I view Shekhar Gupta's videos and print material avidly, and I have seen this video also.

If you want we can get into the debate about Liberalism, Conservatism and Nationalism some other time, as the travails of Pakistan lie in these definitions.. But I am very glad that we are having a meaningful discussion without acrimony.
 

Shankar Deb

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Like I said, radicalisation is a different matter. We can take it up separately.

My fundamental question is whether Pakistani civil society has a strong component of counter narrative to arrest the slide into religious fundamentalism?

for example: Atish Taseer’s father tried to be such a counter force and bring a balance by speaking in favour of that Christian woman who was jailed for blasphemy, and he got shot and his killer got celebrated as a hero. how many meaningful protests happen against the killer? None.
Absolutely agree. It is the same predicament in Kashmir.

I read an article somewhere that if the civil society is too intimidated to change the jihadi narrative, then it has made itself irrelevant. And at present this is true.

There would have to be a time when they will decide that the state of affairs is too intolerable, and take a stand. We will all have to wait till then.
 

Knowitall

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Absolutely agree. It is the same predicament in Kashmir.

I read an article somewhere that if the civil society is too intimidated to change the jihadi narrative, then it has made itself irrelevant. And at present this is true.

There would have to be a time when they will decide that the state of affairs is too intolerable, and take a stand. We will all have to wait till then.
Govt should stop all benefits they will take a stand immediately.

Us honest taxpayers have too see our hard earned money spent on this bullshit.

They are not intimidated at all. Infact they portray a victim complex show the world that they are being stamped upon and all nonsense while go hand in hand with jihadis. This is the truth.
 

ezsasa

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Absolutely agree. It is the same predicament in Kashmir.

I read an article somewhere that if the civil society is too intimidated to change the jihadi narrative, then it has made itself irrelevant. And at present this is true.

There would have to be a time when they will decide that the state of affairs is too intolerable, and take a stand. We will all have to wait till then.
I fear that day will never come, knowingly or unknowingly Pakistani establishment is killing their societal feedback system using coercion or peer pressure or violence. a feedback system is essential for a society to stay level headed, which I think does not exist in Pakistan at the moment and whatever is left is only diminishing every year.

towards the end even Asma Jahangir was sounding like paki establishment narratives in her speeches.

Pakistani who can’t adjust to ground realities are simply moving to western countries.

therefore I get back to your fundamental assumption that Pakistan will reform someday will never come, there is no point in investing any good will in Pakistan anymore.

at a strategic level to too, it doesn’t make any sense for us to engage with Pakistan anymore. All the words they are speaking are being written in Beijing. What’s the point in engaging with someone who is not in control of their own faculties!!!
 

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