India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

Indx TechStyle

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And I am suggesting that you don't be naive and gullible and wishing for peace too hard to the point where you get taken for a ride and you found out the hard way.
I'm definitely not an internet fanboy dreaming of heroic roles in civil wars and world wars. I'm not going to that person to help him directly. So I'm clearly not being naive but the crowd here is showing absolute irrationality. You are simply being too childish and "incompetent" here.
Atal Vajpayee found the hard way with the Lahore Bus diplomacy.
I did not advocate any kind of peace process with Pak.

I will though not let forum become a jerk pool openly calling mass killing of anyone. It's a sign of sick mind.
Let it remain limited to theocratic regimes.
Indira Gandhi found out the hard way when she gave up everything for nothing to help out Bhutto only to find out the hard way. Lal Shastri at the Taskent conference.
When hard way met irrationality, rise of KPS Gill created the environment why state of Punjab actually hates its country India today.

Indira anyway was a pro Soviet leader brought by that eco system since Shastri opened his cards openly than being diplomatic and silent.
I don't need to say any further on ex PM Singh and his astounding naivety towards Pakistan. The
UPA wasn't naive towards Pakistan, it was always purposely friendly towards Pakistan. Their political interests were just opposite to BJP i.e. winning western consent. De-arming of Indian military, weak approach towards Pak and even letting US access Indian reactors was a part of it. UPA parties still depend more on foreign funding and support of uneducated backward sections of India than real long term action plans. The reason why they try to drag BJP in international scrutiny everytime.

This is not our topic anyway.
You cannot just trust Pakistanis at all. Their entire society revolves around the premise that India must be destroyed in any way in any fashion. There is just no reasoning with any element of Pakistani society.
You want to express mercy. Fine, do it at your own risk but don't risk anyone else or ask them to do so. For my part, I will not risk my family or friends or myself for any kind of mercy upon any Pakistani. Only exception I make is if the Pakistani in question is Hindu and needs to escape from Pakistan's hellish and evil society.
Well, it's most certainly me not being naive.

Though if you believe that an average Pakistani has bigger concern towards Ummah and Sharia than his own bread butter, an average Indian is nationalist before his goals to accumulate tremendous wealth, a Chinese or American put their nation before their personal business gains, you are simply having zero touch with ground realities and are living in a land of dreams fooling yourself.
 

Blademaster

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I'm definitely not an internet fanboy dreaming of heroic roles in civil wars and world wars. I'm not going to that person to help him directly. So I'm clearly not being naive but the crowd here is showing absolute irrationality. You are simply being too childish and "incompetent" here.
Pretty strong words you are using and you are certainly being judgmental and on a high horse. How is it that I am being childish and incompetent when you got plenty of examples of capturing Pakistan raiders and letting them go and seeing them back in action again. This is what happened to the other guy.

I did not advocate any kind of peace process with Pak.
How did the peace process begin? With acts of mercy.

I will though not let forum become a jerk pool openly calling mass killing of anyone. It's a sign of sick mind.
Let it remain limited to theocratic regimes.
Who said about mass killing of anyone? All I said was the minute they turn to perpetuating acts of terrorism is the minute we need to stop feeling sorry for them. Even poor and hungry, they still retain the capacity for exercising rational thought and action and based on that, they shouldn't go on paths of violence. Once they do that, they have lost their capacity for rational thought and have become rabid.

When hard way met irrationality, rise of KPS Gill created the environment why state of Punjab actually hates its country India today.
That is your personal opinion. There are others who have praised KPS Gill and said that he prevented another Kashmir in Punjab.

Indira anyway was a pro Soviet leader brought by that eco system since Shastri opened his cards openly than being diplomatic and silent.
Your point being???

UPA wasn't naive towards Pakistan, it was always purposely friendly towards Pakistan. Their political interests were just opposite to BJP i.e. winning western consent. De-arming of Indian military, weak approach towards Pak and even letting US access Indian reactors was a part of it. UPA parties still depend more on foreign funding and support of uneducated backward sections of India than real long term action plans. The reason why they try to drag BJP in international scrutiny everytime.
Uhh... yes they were naive towards Pakistan and their actions that you mentioned proved their naivete. It did not produce the desired results they expected. BJP had repeatedly warned Congress against this and in the end were proven right.


Well, it's most certainly me not being naive.

Though if you believe that an average Pakistani has bigger concern towards Ummah and Sharia than his own bread butter, an average Indian is nationalist before his goals to accumulate tremendous wealth, a Chinese or American put their nation before their personal business gains, you are simply having zero touch with ground realities and are living in a land of dreams fooling yourself.
Really?? have you not been paying attention to the ongoing killings and atrocities going on in Pakistan? Every day we get reports of Hindus getting killed, raped, mutilated, etc. whatever evil action these Pakistanis have heaped upon them. That disprove your assertion right there.

Every rational person wants to accumulate wealth whether it be material or spiritual but that doesn't mean all of them wont put their nation first. If you actually believe what you just wrote, you just proved my point about naivety. Because if it wasn't the case, Chinese people wouldn't be screaming about Taiwan or Pakistani people still protesting about Kashmir all the bloody time even when their economy is tanking.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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@Indx TechStyle . Mentioned the reality of so called Terrorists most of them are rag poor who are nothing but cannon fodder for Pakjabis general.

Few years there is a news report regarding a so called Suicide bomber who is nothing more than a mental disorder patient. He was depressed and someone from local Madrassa able to get this info and made him to do suicide by bombing himself. Then the so called terrorist org claimed that X person went to Jannat and found 72 small boys.

Also there are reports where even random lone wolf strikes are now being claimed by so called Terrorist org.

Old school indoctrination is not as much as effective today. Nowadays find the poor, depressed person and force them to do things and claim he was a warrior bullshit.

This is another perspective apart from general perspective.
 

Indx TechStyle

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Pretty strong words you are using and you are certainly being judgmental and on a high horse. How is it that I am being childish and incompetent when you got plenty of examples of capturing Pakistan raiders and letting them go and seeing them back in action again. This is what happened to the other guy.
This argument neither suffices nor is relevant to the rant you made in response to my post where it was about financial situation of an individual.
How did the peace process begin? With acts of mercy.
No, it doesn't. Just as armed forces saving his life won't make them pro Pakistan, taking pity on a poor individual won't make me a terrorist sympathiser. It's basic reasoning and reason why at first place I called you incompetent.

You are still violating debate pyramid and just strawman arguments far away from relevance.
Who said about mass killing of anyone? All I said was the minute they turn to perpetuating acts of terrorism is the minute we need to stop feeling sorry for them.
Even poor and hungry, they still retain the capacity for exercising rational thought and action and based on that, they shouldn't go on paths of violence. Once they do that, they have lost their capacity for rational thought and have become rabid.
Picking every individual with same measure of terroristic perception kills innocents along.
Just be a bit empathic, think if you are born in a theocratic hellhole, your family is either starving or has been abducted, an individual man who is already traumatized won't be able think for right or wrong in that way. He would have lost everything and his family would be everything he has and he will do anything for them.

Whether that captured person is saying is true or false about his financial situation is debatable. But if you don't feel sorry for any such person, there is something seriously wrong with your mind.
That is your personal opinion. There are others who have praised KPS Gill and said that he prevented another Kashmir in Punjab.
Even right wing nationalist circles of Punjab hate him to the core.
Punjab had quite much of a nationalist majority over khalitani factions.
It's Gill's catch and encounter on doubt policy which took away lives of many innocents turned a chunk of families against Indian state.

If you have ever lived in Punjab or northern areas of Haryana where Punjabis are majority, you would hear stories from your parents and grandparents about that era. It's Congress' stupid policy and police brutality which brought khalistan to mainstream from a faction.
They remained lenient on Islamic terrorism in Kashmir but went full hard on people with random picking in a Sikh-Hindu majority state.
Your point being?
Her actions were a course requirement of forces which brought her to power than her leniency.

It indeed helps to go hard, but not retard what she and her successors went. Many of her unilateral and "strong" decisions are still being payed by the nation. Guess even Nehru didn't screw India's future, she did.
Really?? have you not been paying attention to the ongoing killings and atrocities going on in Pakistan? Every day we get reports of Hindus getting killed, raped, mutilated, etc. whatever evil action these Pakistanis have heaped upon them. That disprove your assertion right there.
Which way lol? Talk in data? There are 200 million Muslims in Pakistan and Hindus are largely concentrated in Sindh. They have hire occurrence of violence because of violent nature of Deobandi Islam.
Still it doesn't cover 100% of their population which is more interested in getting their bread and butter than killing their neighbors. Even in radical to more radical societies, only obsessed assholes take such actions.
Every rational person wants to accumulate wealth whether it be material or spiritual but that doesn't mean all of them wont put their nation first.
Human history tells us: no, they won't put their nation first. They at best can go with signaling with donating some money. Only hundred in one will have guts to sacrifice his life and even he will expect to have well being of his family taken care off.
If you actually believe what you just wrote, you just proved my point about naivety. Because if it wasn't the case, Chinese people wouldn't be screaming about Taiwan or Pakistani people still protesting about Kashmir all the bloody time even when their economy is tanking.
If you believe that putting nation first =
random protests, diplomatic statements, social media noises & event organisation

and not a full and effective give up and boycott of foreign goods, advantages, assistance and relations,

you are too confused and childish to be helped with. Even a 10 years old can express signals and do protests, it doesn't add any value to issue. Same as social media buzz. Noise with zero value in real world.
 
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Kuldeepm952

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This argument neither suffices nor is relevant to the rant you made in response to my post where it was about financial situation of an individual.

No, it doesn't. Just as armed forces saving his life won't make them pro Pakistan, taking pity on a poor individual won't make me a terrorist sympathiser. It's basic reasoning and reason why at first place I called you incompetent.

You are still violating debate pyramid and just strawman arguments far away from relevance.


Picking every individual with same measure of terroristic perception kills innocents along.
Just be a bit empathic, think if you are born in a theocratic hellhole, your family is either starving or has been abducted, an individual man who is already traumatized won't be able think for right or wrong in that way. He would have lost everything and his family would be everything he has and he will do anything for them.

Whether that captured person is saying is true or false about his financial situation is debatable. But if you don't feel sorry for any such person, there is something seriously wrong with your mind.

Even right wing nationalist circles of Punjab hate him to the core.
Punjab had quite much of a nationalist majority over khalitani factions.
It's Gill's catch and encounter on doubt policy which took away lives of many innocents turned a chunk of families against Indian state.

If you have ever lived in Punjab or northern areas of Haryana where Punjabis are majority, you would hear stories from your parents and grandparents about that era. It's Congress' stupid policy and police brutality which brought khalistan to mainstream from a faction.
They remained lenient on Islamic terrorism in Kashmir but went full hard on people with random picking in a Sikh-Hindu majority state.

Her actions were a course requirement of forces which brought her to power than her leniency.

It indeed helps to go hard, but not retard what she and her successors went. Many of her unilateral and "strong" decisions are still being payed by the nation. Guess even Nehru didn't screw India's future, she did.

Which way lol? Talk in data? There are 200 million Muslims in Pakistan and Hindus are largely concentrated in Sindh. They have hire occurrence of violence because of violent nature of Deobandi Islam.
Still it doesn't cover 100% of their population which is more interested in getting their bread and butter than killing their neighbors. Even in radical to more radical societies, only obsessed assholes take such actions.

Human history tells us: no, they won't put their nation first. They at best can go with signaling with donating some money. Only hundred in one will have guts to sacrifice his life and even he will expect to have well being of his family taken care off.

If you believe that putting nation first =
random protests, diplomatic statements, social media noises & event organisation

and not a full and effective give up and boycott of foreign goods, advantages, assistance and relations,

you are too confused and childish to be helped with. Even a 10 years old can express signals and do protests, it doesn't add any value to issue. Same as social media buzz. Noise with zero value in real world.
The main question for me is that can Pakistani citizens ever be rid of this jihadi mindset ever, by that I mean a majority of pop like atleast 75%.
The way Pak is going and has been going, I don't see they will ever be nice considering the religious propaganda fed to mango man at every level from the time they were born to the time they die, mind of a young one is highly malleable.
Other point being that they are highly unlikely to start performing economically anytime better soon, so most of the Pakis are going to be highly influenced by Kaafir bullshit.
Last point being, paki politicians will beat the drum of India and Kashmir till the Earth explodes so let's just say there are none at all efforts to mend their society for good.

So how does India fight such an enemy. Should we just hope that they will improve and understand some day or give a very disproportionate reply so that they will think many times before doing anything. My money is on the latter.
Now, for me a little bit of espionage, assassinations, inciting local rivalries inside Pakistan is all well and good if infiltrations and lives of our soldiers and citizens can be saved. I think India has tried enough Aman ki asha type things, I don't think there is any other country with such a passive mindset like us.
We already got Excalibur and Pinaka guided, time to put them to good use, maybe taking out that ISI guy who planned the recent incursion. I believe these guys often visit forward areas and well with a good amount of intelligence gathering there should be an opportunity.
 

hit&run

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I need to put forth my points here.

The world is already at war and likely on the verge of a nuclear exchange. I am not too sure why this hard fact must be subdued.

The Chinese are at the gates whilst Pakistanis are distracting us with terrorist infiltration. What sporadic bomb blasts were doing during UPA has been replaced by 0.5 front which is already doing strategic strikes on your cities and economy by blockades and anarchy. The blockade of Delhi by agitating Sikhs (for no sound reason) cost us billions.

The hate in Punjab for the rest of India started when this nation got independence. The revisionist propagation of the Sikh religion started earlier. The first alternate point of view came in 1900 and then it became mainstream within 2 decades. Most of the preachings were/are founded on hate for Hindus and particularly Brahmins.

What happened in 1984 and onwards was the result of what was happening for the last 80 years and the driving force was their self interest of becoming a separate nation not a misunderstanding between two lovers.

Optimism is a safest bet when we have nothing to lose but it can not be compulsive at the cost of people who actually get crushed by forces working against the Union of India.

Call for violence against Hindus also have its strong links with Hindus not ready to get their hands dirty. A video I posted just yesterday showed how any stray dog feels emboldened to bark and spit on us because he knows we will cower back.

The adversary in the above case a Pakistani terrorist has no distinction in his mind to separate a violent Hindu or a peaceful Hindu. Obviously, he can be recognised because he is infiltrating from outside or jumping the fence. But those who live among us have mastered the art of shifting the burden of Secularism and Liberalism on us while remaining free without worrying about the reputation of this country. Ask me what kind of facts I can present to prove my allegations. They abuse India when overseas. They riot when foreign heads are visiting. They make alliances with known India-haters. They sing atrocities in front of them and call for sanctions when they themselves have created those confrontations.

Ask yourself if you are not the victim of that burden laddened on you. Check if you are a victim of the freebies of nationalism, unity and love they throw at you to confuse you. Find out if they stay strong with you under the pressure of media narrative and instigating toolkit storms. Detail when they last stood for your religious sensitivities because you are always considerate cowards ready to adjust and oppose your own people to keep them happy?
 

iNorthernerOn9

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Nature is itself presenting us an opportunity... since I started following defence issues(15+ yrs)... I have read dozens of analysis on how we will cut Karakoram highway by direct bombing by jets or Artillery fire or Cruise missile strikes... Neither of these 3 options could have done the kind of damage Nature has done

As seen in the video... not only the side portion... but the entire part in that segment has collapsed... can't be rebuilt even in weeks.

We have an opportunity at stake!
 
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