India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

The final call! Show your support. Who do you think should Win?

  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 66 51.2%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 63 48.8%

  • Total voters
    129
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arundo

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AMEN brother,
People are very emotional on this forum about rafale,
Rafale is an aero Museam fighter, AtoA requirements are very stringent
Compared to A to G. These capabilities can be added later On
We have been reading that for ages. What are they waiting for?
We are talking about a 4+ gen fighter which will not be realizing its full potential earlier than 2018 (or later..)... A multirole design which will completely perform the so easy to integrate a2g after 30 years of program, more or less 25 years after the first flight in 1994 and at least 15 years after delivery of the first aircrafts... Let's be serious.
 

vanadium

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It is a matter of a fact that the multirole capability of Typhoon is very restricted so far and you should know that. The NAO highlighted it earlier this year in its EF-Report. In Libya, most of the RAF strikes were performed by Tornados (while EF showed up only sporadically in A2G operations).RAF pilots were very evasive in their replies, if asked about A2G missions performed by EF. What you wrote about the multirole potential of EF is much in the future. It is not excluded that Rafale will get an upgrade in the next years (including the stronger engine)
My reply was more focused on weg's remark, that Rafale was a more expensive project... and I even had a calculation error on my side: of course 37 billion £ are not 31 billion, but almost 45 billion Euro... 160 EF jets cost as much as the 286 Rafale... in other words, British Typhoon are nearly 80% more expensive. My conclusion is, that the co-operation of the 4 countries was not conducive to meet timetable and budgets (many differences and self-interest guided attitudes slowing down the program). BTW it is the same with the Meteor program which is already 2 years behind timetable and causes additional 50 million Euro cots only for Germany.. as a consequence from disagreements between the countries.
Shall I remind, that you started to point out the costs of the Rafale program, yesterday..?
A summary of the Libyan campaign for Typhoon from "Eurofighter World" magazine:

Focus on LibyaThe Fleet Effectiveness of the Typhoon on Operations
Following six months of intensive operations - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - the British and Italian Typhoon fleets came back home from their key roles in Libya operations. The aircraft, which went into combat for the first time in both air-to-air and air-to-surface missions, was re-deployed to Gioia del Colle and Trapani air force bases in Southern Italy from the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] March 2011 and amassed over 5000 flying hours. During this time, in support of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, Typhoon has proven itself as a first class multi-role aircraft, both enforcing the no-fly-zone over Libya and in ground attack missions against regime forces threatening civilians. These achievements have marked a significant shift for the Typhoon and has successfully demonstrated the full maturity and adaptability of the platform. Within 18 hours of the identification of Gioia del Colle as the Operating Base, the RAF had deployed 10 Typhoons, provided the early entry support staff and were managing the flow of equipment and personnel into the base. Wing Commander Jez Attridge, who took part in the first missions over Libya spoke to us about the deployment: "We have a philosophy that if you stay ready you don't have to get ready. Consequently, although the RAF Typhoons were not formally at a high readiness state, 10 jets were armed and ready to deploy within 48 hours of the notice from our Headquarters. We had no need to conduct any extra pilot training which allowed the aircrew to focus on studying the likely air and surface threat and refine tactics".
"The Station Commander told station personnel on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] March that we were on notice to move. The Station immediately went into action the next morning to have 8 jets ready to deploy within 48 hours and we were ready on 19[SUP]th[/SUP] March. The really impressive aspect of this was how everyone moved with a common purpose and how our industrial partners immediately synchronized their activity with ours". This rapid response from industry in achieving the first-ever avionics update to Typhoon aircraft on operations was commended by the RAF. These activities which were completed in phenomenal timescales, enabled clearance of air-to-surface roles for the full fleet. This success delivered a clear message about the efficient joint working arrangements established with the MOD and RAF and the determination and commitment of industry. The end result was that the RAF were able to deploy the aircraft and maintain Quick Reaction Alert tasking, whilst also continuing the training of pilots at RAF Coningsby.The deployment in Libya has clearly defined the key functions of the aircraft, ranging from the vital task of air superiority, with the capability to engage multiple targets at long, medium or short range using AMRAAM, IRIS-T or ASRAAM missiles to the newly established surface attack role, striking at long range with precision weapons. In addition, Typhoon can deliver close air support to ground forces – including the supply of intelligence, a show of force and weapon attack.
On 12[SUP]th[/SUP] April 2011, Typhoon first proved itself to be a potent ground attack aircraft when a Typhoon patrolling over western Libya successfully engaged two Main Battle Tanks to the south of Misrata with Enhanced Paveway II bombs. Since that mission, Typhoon has continued to prosecute targets threatening the safety of Libyan civilians. Typhoon has offered a credible option to Defence that covers two roles that were previously discharged by two separate platforms. "We don't actually move from air-to-air to air-to-surface – the aircraft is always providing the pilot with information about the air environment and we can employ missiles against hostile threat aircraft at any time. So if you like, employing air-to-surface weapons is a capability that works with, not against, the other capabilities of the aircraft. The difficult part of the mission is interpreting the complicated picture on the ground and ensuring that the weapons are used against the right target, every time".
An early mission in the vicinity of Misrata demonstrates the ease with which Typhoon can influence the ground environment. In this particular case, the Typhoon was wingman to a Tornado GR.4. Typhoon had only been declared in the air-to-surface role for two weeks and the pilots were still relatively inexperienced. However, when a target was passed to the formation by AWACS, the Typhoon pilot was able to cue the formation's weapons onto the pro-regime forces within minutes, by a combination of Link-16 and Litening III targeting pod. Weapons were delivered by the formation within 10 minutes of the initial message. More remarkable, was the delivery of two Enhanced Paveway II weapons by the Typhoon, to two separate targets, in one pass. The pilot had not practiced this attack for over a year, yet was able to choose this delivery method due to the ease with which the aircraft allows air to surface delivery.
Asked what he felt were the advantages of the Typhoon, he said "For me it was looking at the air-picture of the entire operating area, whilst on the ground at Gioia Del Colle. Our Link-16 datalink allowed us to zoom in to any area, interrogate tracks to see who was operating where and pick up tasking. When you are 700 miles away, this level of situational awareness allows you to prepare mentally for the mission before entering the airspace so that you are immediately effective. If you combine this with the outrageous thrust to weight advantage that Typhoon enjoys you have an aircraft that carries a lot of ordnance, with a pilot that has no doubt where that payload is to be delivered".The pilots faced many challenges during the missions, as NATO forces worked to combat the aggressive actions of Libyan forces. Without being able to go into details as to how these attacks were addressed, Wg. Cdr. Attridge did say: "The Defensive Aids Sub-System on the Typhoon is world-class. Our pilots staked their lives on it every day, with no hesitation".The Officer Commanding 906 Expeditionary Air Wing of the Royal Air Force, Group Captain Squires, commented on the Typhoon's vital role in the operation."The Typhoon's contribution to enforcing the UN Resolution has been immense. The skill, determination and professionalism of the pilots and engineers alike, combined with the potent capability of an aircraft which can switch from air-to-ground and air-to-air tasking in a moment's notice has been exceptional and earned them a superb reputation within NATO. The Typhoon force can return home extremely proud of their immense contribution to NATO's Operation Unified Protector."The success of the Typhoon fleet in Libya can be attributed to their breadth of capability and the flexibility of the platform, which is able to carry out operations day or night, in all weather conditions and deploying a wide variety of weapons. The fact that the airframe is largely constructed of carbon fibre composites and light alloys to save weight – meaning it consumes less fuel and can carry more weapons was never more vital than on the five hour plus missions along the Libyan coastline.
As explained by Squadron Leader Rupert Joel during his Libya de-brief for the media at Paris air show in June, it's about 600 miles from Gioia de Colle to Libyan air space. "In Afghanistan I flew 325 miles maximum and in Iraq, 350 miles". At 800 miles, the Libyan coastline is even longer. "The aircraft doesn't suffer at all from flying those extra hours. We're flying them a lot and they're performing exactly as they do in the UK".
Speaking about combat missions to the media during RIAT, Fairford Air Show in July, Wg Cdr Attridge said. "In just over 3 months we've flown almost 1300 hours, the same as a Typhoon circumnavigating the Earth 24 times. Overall, I've been personally fortunate to oversee the maturation of the RAF's first multi-role combat aircraft since World War II. More than that, as a Service we've been fortunate to have at our disposal an aircraft that fulfils the RAF's mantra of being agile, adaptable and capable. This is reinforced by the fact that the average hours flown per aircraft during this operation have increased from the initial 24 to nearly 90 per month, which demonstrates the platform's stunning serviceability".
Further testimony to the Typhoon's ease of operation and therefore minimal training burden when operated in the swing-role configuration is that several pilots were deployed with no air-to-surface experience. After one week's training they were combat capable and have now delivered several weapons with no mishaps or excursions from the ROE.
What has been staggering to the uneducated and pleasing for those more familiar with Typhoon's performance is the ease with which it transports heavy weaponry over significant distances in a fast moving, ever changing environment. Several times Typhoon pilots have been forced to climb over thundercloud activity en route to the Area of Operation, whilst other aircraft with less performance have been forced to re-route. The point that makes Typhoon stand apart from its contemporaries is that even when carrying 4 x 1000Ib weapons, a targeting pod and 2 underwing tanks it can still fly at 40,000 feet, 500+kts ground speed whilst burning a total of 44kg/minute, 4kg.minute more than with 2 bombs and only three times the burn rate of sitting at idle on the ground. This has obvious benefits in terms of endurance. More importantly, it ensures that the Typhoon is less of a burden on the air refuelling plan in the air-space. When the bombs are released the fuel burn reduces to 30 kg.minute, allowing the aircraft to loiter and provide airborne cover with its full complement of air to air weapons for a significant period of time.
Mixed Fighter Force operations combining both Tornado GR4 and Typhoon aircraft in the OCA role brought a significant additional dimension to RAF combat ops during Operation Ellamy. The Typhoon's prodigious air-to-air capability afforded the Tornados a far greater degree of protection against Libyan air threats and the enhanced DASS on Typhoon added significant threat awareness and superior protection against the prolific Libyan surface-to-air threat. Working with the Tornado GR.4, Typhoon has enabled the UK to meet its commitment to the UN-mandated Libyan no-fly zone whilst still providing Air Defence of the UK and its dependencies."
Below can be found some Operation Ellamy data shown at the July briefing, related to the combined fleet of RAF Tornado and Typhoon
10. Op ELLAMY Stats.




Mar
Apr
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
(18 Aug)
TOTAL
Hours Flown
181
460
525
501
590
301
2519
Planned Missions
32
94
107
83
124
62
486
Achieved Missions
29
88
103
83
114
58
459
Weapons Released
17
35
25
87
45
209
Frame Swaps
2
5
5
5
1
18
COMAO
Average of 2 to 3 COMAO's flown each week


66


Overall success rate: 97%


Italian Air Force Typhoons of 4 and 36 Stormo, redeployed to Trapani-Birgi Air Force Base, reached the milestone of 1000 flying hours in June whilst involved in NATO operations.Part of the Birgi Air Task Group which was created by the Italian Air Force for these operations, these aircraft joined the Libya mission on 29th March 2011.
The ItAF's Typhoons have been responsible for the defence of high value airborne assets deployed by NATO such as AWACS, ISR and air tankers plus the protection of tactical assets involved in Combined Air Operations (COMAO).

The Italian Typhoons worked in partnership with the RAF Typhoons, operating without any technical or interoperability issues. While Gioia is a permanent Eurofighter base, Trapani, in Sicily, has been used by the Grosseto based aircraft, proving the typically small footprint and high operational availability that is standard for the Typhoon.

The British and Italian fleets were withdrawn from Libya from the 23[SUP]rd[/SUP] September 2011 as part of a "strategy to optimise the air contribution to the current and future campaign" according to an MoD statement. Italian Typhoons returned to their home bases to continue in their air policing missions over Italy, Slovenia and Albania following their successful involvement. The achievement of these missions and Typhoon's rapid deployment 72 hours from the initial UN mandate and the subsequent missions 12 hours later, are testament to the "instant deployability and relevance of this new generation aircraft", as Wing Commander Attridge himself states.
 

vanadium

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We have been reading that for ages. What are they waiting for?
We are talking about a 4+ gen fighter which will not be realizing its full potential earlier than 2018 (or later..)... A multirole design which will completely perform the so easy to integrate a2g after 30 years of program, more or less 25 years after the first flight in 1994 and at least 15 years after delivery of the first aircrafts... Let's be serious.
You seem to have severe difficulties in understanding that you integrate a weapon or a capability when your customer requires it!!!

Is such a concept really so difficult to grasp or is pre-judgment (to be kind) impeding it?
 

arundo

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You seem to have severe difficulties in understanding that you integrate a weapon or a capability when your customer requires it!!!

Is such a concept really so difficult to grasp or is pre-judgment (to be kind) impeding it?
The RAF would have needed it in 2011 and didn't really have it, as the Tornado did the major part in a2g. It will take 6 more years again, pls read the NAO report. So you want to tell me that customers are going to need full a2g just in 2018, not earlier, not later? Who exactly?
You can write what you want and I am aware that EF GmbH has prepared a reply to every possible argument. Even if you prefer copying, memorizing or ruminating the self congratulating EF GmbH releases, statistics and argumentation guidelines, I prefer to rely on the less biased NAO conclusion, I am sorry.. and make my judgement form several sources. Ok, it is your job edifying sweet talk an stir up opinion, but let's be serious as that's too much. Thank you.

May I send you "Grüße nach Halbergmoos"? ":) How's the weather in Bavaria?
 

SpArK

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Bulgaria Negotiates Used Eurofighters



The Standart broke the news that Germany is about to offer used multirole fighters – Eurofighter – to several Easteuropean countries including Bulgaria ahead of the prestigious economic daily Financial Times. Yesterday, a German edition confirmed the information. According to the Financial Times, the issue will be discussed during the meeting between PM Boiko Borisov and Chancellor Angela Merkel scheduled for January 18. Financial Times writes that apart from Bulgaria Eurofighters that have been in limited use will be offered to Romania, Croatia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Commenting the topic Deutsche Welle informs that Bulgaria has evidently shown interest to the offer. As several German editions wrote today, the Federal Republic may sell to Bulgaria eight secondhand Eurofighters, which the Bundeswehr will withdraw from operational use after the army reform.


Bulgaria - Bulgaria Negotiates Used Eurofighters - Standart

:toilet:
 

arundo

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You seem to have severe difficulties in understanding that you integrate a weapon or a capability when your customer requires it!!!
really?
You seem to have severe difficulties to hide the disinformation strategy and the goals you are pursuing with energy, vigor and huge time investment.
I guess the reason why the Luftwaffe complained about missing basic functions in 2005 is that they never had required them, of course.. (just as an example: Pannenprojekt Eurofighter: Kampfjet ohne Kanone - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft)
Of course the elimination from the tender in Brazil was only a consequence of misunderstood top performances by Brazilian Army and not of non available a2g capabilities. The consortium just failed to explain that everything could be integrated immediately..
" Typhoon alreadysuccessfully undertakes air defence tasks and so far MOD hascommitted a total of £564 million to upgrade Typhoon for the groundattack role. However, it is unlikely to become the aircraft ofchoice for most ground attack missions until 2018"
Management of the Typhoon Project - National Audit Office
NAO, 2011.
This source is much more impartial and less likely to manipulate public opinion.
This is not a question of demand (as demand was already there many years ago), but it is a matter of time schedule and money. It is as simple as that.
Never ending delays and whitewashing of serious failures in meeting timetable and operating capability have been the outstanding features of the program so far.
Of course, I know that EF will only report successes, but ambition and reality are two sets of scales.
 

arundo

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Bulgaria Negotiates Used Eurofighters



The Standart broke the news that Germany is about to offer used multirole fighters – Eurofighter – to several Easteuropean countries including Bulgaria ahead of the prestigious economic daily Financial Times. Yesterday, a German edition confirmed the information. According to the Financial Times, the issue will be discussed during the meeting between PM Boiko Borisov and Chancellor Angela Merkel scheduled for January 18. Financial Times writes that apart from Bulgaria Eurofighters that have been in limited use will be offered to Romania, Croatia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Commenting the topic Deutsche Welle informs that Bulgaria has evidently shown interest to the offer. As several German editions wrote today, the Federal Republic may sell to Bulgaria eight secondhand Eurofighters, which the Bundeswehr will withdraw from operational use after the army reform.


Bulgaria - Bulgaria Negotiates Used Eurofighters - Standart

:toilet:
Austria should try to get rid of their politically very disputed 15 Tranche 1 EF too (6 of them purchased used from Germnay) and get some new (fair priced) Gripen or used Mirage 2000-9 from the UAE instead for less money. The question is who is going to pay the bill for used EF that are just suitable for air police missions and were paid more than 100 million € per unit a few years ago.. I think there could be a brisk demand for used, but hardly price reduced modern fighters. Therefore, I think that Germany will have to make significant price concessions.
 
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Cola

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So, if that is what you want to point out, can you update the information in that graph with Rafale, EF and the flanker, and show how it would look like?
I can help with that.
Following few clips show actual testing in Switzerland and are good to make comparison, since all planes take off with 4 AIMs and a tank.

Eurofighter:
EADS Eurofighter in Emmen - 12. Nov. 2008 - YouTube (13 sec with a single tank and 4 AIMs)
EADS Eurofighter in Emmen - 1. Dez. 2008 - YouTube (~15 sec with 6 AIMs, 2 tanks and Litening pod)

Rafale:
Dassault Rafale in Emmen - 14.10.2008 - First day - YouTube (17 sec with a single tank and 4 AIMs)

Gripen:
Emmen 2008: Gripen evaluation 01 - YouTube (17 sec with a single tank and 4 AIMs)

Rafale's high lift aerodynamic setup helped here, so its actual fallback in acceleration vs. EF, in flight, is even larger.
I won't be explaining separately what does this mean for the entire flight envelope and operational capabilities, but this should be enough even for non flying personnel, to understand the difference in class here.

As for the design, both planes are pure interceptors/fighters.
Rafale had to land on ship, on top of all...EF didn't.

If AG mattered, India would have chosen F16/18, long time ago.
 
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arundo

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A summary of the Libyan campaign for Typhoon from "Eurofighter World" magazine:

Focus on LibyaThe Fleet Effectiveness of the Typhoon on Operations
Following six months of intensive operations - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - the British and Italian Typhoon fleets came back home from their key roles in Libya operations. The aircraft, which went into combat for the first time in both air-to-air and air-to-surface missions, was re-deployed to Gioia del Colle and Trapani air force bases in Southern Italy from the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] March 2011 and amassed over 5000 flying hours. During this time, in support of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, Typhoon has proven itself as a first class multi-role aircraft, both enforcing the no-fly-zone over Libya and in ground attack missions against regime forces threatening civilians. These achievements have marked a significant shift for the Typhoon and has successfully demonstrated the full maturity and adaptability of the platform. Within 18 hours of the identification of Gioia del Colle as the Operating Base, the RAF had deployed 10 Typhoons, provided the early entry support staff and were managing the flow of equipment and personnel into the base. Wing Commander Jez Attridge, who took part in the first missions over Libya spoke to us about the deployment: "We have a philosophy that if you stay ready you don't have to get ready. Consequently, although the RAF Typhoons were not formally at a high readiness state, 10 jets were armed and ready to deploy within 48 hours of the notice from our Headquarters. We had no need to conduct any extra pilot training which allowed the aircrew to focus on studying the likely air and surface threat and refine tactics".
"The Station Commander told station personnel on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] March that we were on notice to move. The Station immediately went into action the next morning to have 8 jets ready to deploy within 48 hours and we were ready on 19[SUP]th[/SUP] March. The really impressive aspect of this was how everyone moved with a common purpose and how our industrial partners immediately synchronized their activity with ours". This rapid response from industry in achieving the first-ever avionics update to Typhoon aircraft on operations was commended by the RAF. These activities which were completed in phenomenal timescales, enabled clearance of air-to-surface roles for the full fleet. This success delivered a clear message about the efficient joint working arrangements established with the MOD and RAF and the determination and commitment of industry. The end result was that the RAF were able to deploy the aircraft and maintain Quick Reaction Alert tasking, whilst also continuing the training of pilots at RAF Coningsby.The deployment in Libya has clearly defined the key functions of the aircraft, ranging from the vital task of air superiority, with the capability to engage multiple targets at long, medium or short range using AMRAAM, IRIS-T or ASRAAM missiles to the newly established surface attack role, striking at long range with precision weapons. In addition, Typhoon can deliver close air support to ground forces – including the supply of intelligence, a show of force and weapon attack.
On 12[SUP]th[/SUP] April 2011, Typhoon first proved itself to be a potent ground attack aircraft when a Typhoon patrolling over western Libya successfully engaged two Main Battle Tanks to the south of Misrata with Enhanced Paveway II bombs. Since that mission, Typhoon has continued to prosecute targets threatening the safety of Libyan civilians. Typhoon has offered a credible option to Defence that covers two roles that were previously discharged by two separate platforms. "We don't actually move from air-to-air to air-to-surface – the aircraft is always providing the pilot with information about the air environment and we can employ missiles against hostile threat aircraft at any time. So if you like, employing air-to-surface weapons is a capability that works with, not against, the other capabilities of the aircraft. The difficult part of the mission is interpreting the complicated picture on the ground and ensuring that the weapons are used against the right target, every time".
An early mission in the vicinity of Misrata demonstrates the ease with which Typhoon can influence the ground environment. In this particular case, the Typhoon was wingman to a Tornado GR.4. Typhoon had only been declared in the air-to-surface role for two weeks and the pilots were still relatively inexperienced. However, when a target was passed to the formation by AWACS, the Typhoon pilot was able to cue the formation's weapons onto the pro-regime forces within minutes, by a combination of Link-16 and Litening III targeting pod. Weapons were delivered by the formation within 10 minutes of the initial message. More remarkable, was the delivery of two Enhanced Paveway II weapons by the Typhoon, to two separate targets, in one pass. The pilot had not practiced this attack for over a year, yet was able to choose this delivery method due to the ease with which the aircraft allows air to surface delivery.
Asked what he felt were the advantages of the Typhoon, he said "For me it was looking at the air-picture of the entire operating area, whilst on the ground at Gioia Del Colle. Our Link-16 datalink allowed us to zoom in to any area, interrogate tracks to see who was operating where and pick up tasking. When you are 700 miles away, this level of situational awareness allows you to prepare mentally for the mission before entering the airspace so that you are immediately effective. If you combine this with the outrageous thrust to weight advantage that Typhoon enjoys you have an aircraft that carries a lot of ordnance, with a pilot that has no doubt where that payload is to be delivered".The pilots faced many challenges during the missions, as NATO forces worked to combat the aggressive actions of Libyan forces. Without being able to go into details as to how these attacks were addressed, Wg. Cdr. Attridge did say: "The Defensive Aids Sub-System on the Typhoon is world-class. Our pilots staked their lives on it every day, with no hesitation".The Officer Commanding 906 Expeditionary Air Wing of the Royal Air Force, Group Captain Squires, commented on the Typhoon's vital role in the operation."The Typhoon's contribution to enforcing the UN Resolution has been immense. The skill, determination and professionalism of the pilots and engineers alike, combined with the potent capability of an aircraft which can switch from air-to-ground and air-to-air tasking in a moment's notice has been exceptional and earned them a superb reputation within NATO. The Typhoon force can return home extremely proud of their immense contribution to NATO's Operation Unified Protector."The success of the Typhoon fleet in Libya can be attributed to their breadth of capability and the flexibility of the platform, which is able to carry out operations day or night, in all weather conditions and deploying a wide variety of weapons. The fact that the airframe is largely constructed of carbon fibre composites and light alloys to save weight – meaning it consumes less fuel and can carry more weapons was never more vital than on the five hour plus missions along the Libyan coastline.
As explained by Squadron Leader Rupert Joel during his Libya de-brief for the media at Paris air show in June, it's about 600 miles from Gioia de Colle to Libyan air space. "In Afghanistan I flew 325 miles maximum and in Iraq, 350 miles". At 800 miles, the Libyan coastline is even longer. "The aircraft doesn't suffer at all from flying those extra hours. We're flying them a lot and they're performing exactly as they do in the UK".
Speaking about combat missions to the media during RIAT, Fairford Air Show in July, Wg Cdr Attridge said. "In just over 3 months we've flown almost 1300 hours, the same as a Typhoon circumnavigating the Earth 24 times. Overall, I've been personally fortunate to oversee the maturation of the RAF's first multi-role combat aircraft since World War II. More than that, as a Service we've been fortunate to have at our disposal an aircraft that fulfils the RAF's mantra of being agile, adaptable and capable. This is reinforced by the fact that the average hours flown per aircraft during this operation have increased from the initial 24 to nearly 90 per month, which demonstrates the platform's stunning serviceability".
Further testimony to the Typhoon's ease of operation and therefore minimal training burden when operated in the swing-role configuration is that several pilots were deployed with no air-to-surface experience. After one week's training they were combat capable and have now delivered several weapons with no mishaps or excursions from the ROE.
What has been staggering to the uneducated and pleasing for those more familiar with Typhoon's performance is the ease with which it transports heavy weaponry over significant distances in a fast moving, ever changing environment. Several times Typhoon pilots have been forced to climb over thundercloud activity en route to the Area of Operation, whilst other aircraft with less performance have been forced to re-route. The point that makes Typhoon stand apart from its contemporaries is that even when carrying 4 x 1000Ib weapons, a targeting pod and 2 underwing tanks it can still fly at 40,000 feet, 500+kts ground speed whilst burning a total of 44kg/minute, 4kg.minute more than with 2 bombs and only three times the burn rate of sitting at idle on the ground. This has obvious benefits in terms of endurance. More importantly, it ensures that the Typhoon is less of a burden on the air refuelling plan in the air-space. When the bombs are released the fuel burn reduces to 30 kg.minute, allowing the aircraft to loiter and provide airborne cover with its full complement of air to air weapons for a significant period of time.
Mixed Fighter Force operations combining both Tornado GR4 and Typhoon aircraft in the OCA role brought a significant additional dimension to RAF combat ops during Operation Ellamy. The Typhoon's prodigious air-to-air capability afforded the Tornados a far greater degree of protection against Libyan air threats and the enhanced DASS on Typhoon added significant threat awareness and superior protection against the prolific Libyan surface-to-air threat. Working with the Tornado GR.4, Typhoon has enabled the UK to meet its commitment to the UN-mandated Libyan no-fly zone whilst still providing Air Defence of the UK and its dependencies."
Below can be found some Operation Ellamy data shown at the July briefing, related to the combined fleet of RAF Tornado and Typhoon
10. Op ELLAMY Stats.


MarAprMayJunJulAug
(18 Aug)
TOTAL
Hours Flown1814605255015903012519
Planned Missions32941078312462 486
Achieved Missions29881038311458 459
Weapons Released1735258745 209
Frame Swaps25551 18
COMAOAverage of 2 to 3 COMAO's flown each week 66





Overall success rate: 97%


Italian Air Force Typhoons of 4 and 36 Stormo, redeployed to Trapani-Birgi Air Force Base, reached the milestone of 1000 flying hours in June whilst involved in NATO operations.Part of the Birgi Air Task Group which was created by the Italian Air Force for these operations, these aircraft joined the Libya mission on 29th March 2011.
The ItAF's Typhoons have been responsible for the defence of high value airborne assets deployed by NATO such as AWACS, ISR and air tankers plus the protection of tactical assets involved in Combined Air Operations (COMAO).

The Italian Typhoons worked in partnership with the RAF Typhoons, operating without any technical or interoperability issues. While Gioia is a permanent Eurofighter base, Trapani, in Sicily, has been used by the Grosseto based aircraft, proving the typically small footprint and high operational availability that is standard for the Typhoon.

The British and Italian fleets were withdrawn from Libya from the 23[SUP]rd[/SUP] September 2011 as part of a "strategy to optimise the air contribution to the current and future campaign" according to an MoD statement. Italian Typhoons returned to their home bases to continue in their air policing missions over Italy, Slovenia and Albania following their successful involvement. The achievement of these missions and Typhoon's rapid deployment 72 hours from the initial UN mandate and the subsequent missions 12 hours later, are testament to the "instant deployability and relevance of this new generation aircraft", as Wing Commander Attridge himself states.
Since you are a little sloppy in naming sources, I will do it for you:
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef-world-03_2011web.pdf
p. 9
 
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vanadium

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really?
You seem to have severe difficulties to hide the disinformation strategy and the goals you are pursuing with energy, vigor and huge time investment.
I guess the reason why the Luftwaffe complained about missing basic functions in 2005 is that they never had required them, of course.. (just as an example: Pannenprojekt Eurofighter: Kampfjet ohne Kanone - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft)
Of course the elimination from the tender in Brazil was only a consequence of misunderstood top performances by Brazilian Army and not of non available a2g capabilities. The consortium just failed to explain that everything could be integrated immediately..
" Typhoon alreadysuccessfully undertakes air defence tasks and so far MOD hascommitted a total of £564 million to upgrade Typhoon for the groundattack role. However, it is unlikely to become the aircraft ofchoice for most ground attack missions until 2018"
Management of the Typhoon Project - National Audit Office
NAO, 2011.
This source is much more impartial and less likely to manipulate public opinion.
This is not a question of demand (as demand was already there many years ago), but it is a matter of time schedule and money. It is as simple as that.
Never ending delays and whitewashing of serious failures in meeting timetable and operating capability have been the outstanding features of the program so far.
Of course, I know that EF will only report successes, but ambition and reality are two sets of scales.
As this is not a forum on the RAF Order of Battle and Concept of Operations I will stop it here with a last attempt to explain.

It should be already evident by the text you have highlighted ("...However, it is unlikely to become the aircraft of choice for most ground attack missions until 2018) that the RAF has a variety of assets to cover its mission spectrum. The mainstay of their strike force is the Tornado GR4, so it is easily understandable by almost anybody that that aircraft is the weapon system of choice for ground attack. The Harrier force is mainly dedicated to CAS and BAI ops and will eventually be replaced by the JSF. As per plan the Jaguar A-G role has been taken over by Typhoon (which of course is much more capable). As the Tornado GR4 starts winding down from 2018 onwards, it is likely that its role will be taken over by a mixed force of Typhoon, JSF and UCAVs. The plan for this mix has been under consideration for many years but it is not yet firm. Under the austere budgets prevailing, the last thing the RAF needs is to duplicate capability available from other assets and integrate Storm Shadow, Brimstone and whatever on Typhoon. And the Typhoon will remain the backbone of the air superiority force for decades to come.

Italy has no requirement whatsoever for A-G weapons and capabilities on their Typhoon so there is no point forcing them down a path that is not desired. That of course does not preclude that one day in the future they may change their views as budgetary realities start to sink in and with them the realization that JSF not only is unaffordable, but not truly necessary.

The Indian Air Force knows very well what Typhoon can deliver today, will deliver in 2015 and the huge flexibility inherent in its design plus growth capacity. That is the reason why they have down-selected it. They will be more the happy to operate it, despite your desperate and useless mud throwing efforts. The same goes for Rafale. The decision is now with the economics and geopolitical experts.


 

arundo

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If AG mattered, India would have chosen F16/18, long time ago.
Asia times, May 12:
"The source, who asked not to be identified by name, said that air-superiority fighter jets with secondary ground-strike capabilities, for example the F-16 and the Mirage 2000, had failed miserably to change facts on the ground in the campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi."
 
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vanadium

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Asia times, May 12:
"The source, who asked not to be identified by name, said that air-superiority fighter jets with secondary ground-strike capabilities, for example the F-16 and the Mirage 2000, had failed miserably to change facts on the ground in the campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi."
Cannot you not filter what is bullshit and just avoid filling this site with nonsense?
 

bhramos

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Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper



I'd been very wary all weekend about posting about a verystrong rumour that's been doing the rounds specifically for the last five days or so, but now a mainsteam Indian business newspaper (Mint) has a piece today leading with precisely that -- word that the Eurofighter Typhoonhas been identified by the Indian MoD as the lowest bidder (L1) in India's monumental $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. Obviously, there is no official confirmation of this, and there is unlikely to be any until a formal announcement is made either way. The competition has been marked by hearsay and rumours right through its life (sometimes, vendors have leapt in to correct them), and I'm only putting this post up since a mainstream newspaper has put it down in print (and that I'd heard the rumour as well). It's delicate right now.

The brief report goes on to say that representatives of EADS Cassidian and Dassault are to be summoned to the MoD on Thursday (Jan 12). So is this it? We'll know soon. Stay tuned.

Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper
 

arundo

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Cannot you not filter what is bullshit and just avoid filling this site with nonsense?
I just filtered out today that you are only ruminating what EF folders are saying. Congrats. I think you should really be careful with the word "bullshit". Your biased opinion is of no importance and of course Mirage 2000 and F-16 played a little a2g role during the Libya war, finally. You should accept that some people have better insight and refrain from remote diagnosis.
 
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