India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[noob101]

I use my experience and judgment, but have no clue on the actual offer. I would say it is a no brainer if EF used the huge potential at their disposal in the ToT area, but if they don´t then it is no longer a "no brainer". One assumes such entities to behave rationally, but that is not always a certainty.

I agree with you that the partnership will be on Typhoon development; that is all which can be offered.

I use my judgment and historical precedents, i.e. the Tornado partners formed the core block for Eurofighter to which Spain was an additional member. I guess that the Eurofighter experience, structure and organizational skills can form the new core block of countries when the 6th Generation Fighter will start taking shape. It would make eminent sense. You would not have to re-invent the wheel. If India is already a member of the consortium it will seat at the table of those who will participate as equal partners in this next big project. If so it wishes, of course!
n

Although the selection of the aircraft is upto the IAF, the involvement in the partnership includes many players like HAL and DRDO , if a full partnership is offered then India will go in a the jr most partner... And as we know HAL/DRDO have their own agenda with Indian defense industries.... my opinion is that we would have to play second fiddle in this partnership after all didn't Dassult leave GmBH because of this and went on to develop the Rafale... for example the funding of the 6th generation fighter would have to be split among the partners this might mean that the funding for the AMCA could be cut.... don't know how this would play with the DRDO... as you said logic would say we should take the partnership but the politics have to be considered.... I can see of Def Minister.as usual, not take any action if the above scenario presents itself...

 

[arundo]

Rafale won the competition of emergency landings in Malta during the Libyan ops!
Not so much know is the fact that Rafale also had a high number of aborted missions due to failure to release weapons..

What's exactly the percentage? Claims are plentiful. The least is to give the source of such an information without being asked. It seems that a serious and objective discussion is contrary to your interest. RAF Tornado, US and Danish F-16 had emergency landings in Malta. Of course, the exact number of emergency landings (which is not known) has to be put in relation to the number of missions of each aricraft type and to the place where the missions happened. Rafale is an aircraft that performed much more missions than Typhoon.

BTW the radar was not really a point of disagreement before both projects went each one its own way. None of the sources knows that. The main reasons were already communicated a few days ago.

 

[asianobserve]

You don't need powerful radars for strike. Heck most strike aircraft don't even carry radars.

The nose cone of the F-16 can still fit a radar more powerful and more capable than the Captor or RBE-2, which it already does. Is that not enough?

The point of having more space for growth is to factor in advances of enemy wares and systems, you simply cannot tell what the enemy will have 10+ years from now. What if all of a sudden adversary radars are able to match existing US radars then the US has to scramble for improvements across all front line aircrafts (including F16s)? The US will have to develop a more powerful radar in response. This is where the space limitations of F16 comes in... Note F15Es are expected to serve longer than F16s in USAF inventory.

 

[vanadium]

What's exactly the percentage? Claims are plentiful. The least is to give the source of such an information without being asked. It seems that a serious and objective discussion is contrary to your interest.

BTW the radar was never a point of disagreement before both projects went each one its own way. None of the sources knows that.

I told you several times that I do not work as your Google search engine. The events were reported at the time almost daily by press and tv sources.

RADAR The new rule according to "arundo": you exist only if his sources recognize you!

 

[p2prada]

The point of having more space for growth is to factor in advances of enemy wares and systems, you simply cannot tell what the enemy will have 10+ years from now. What if all of a sudden adversary radars are able to match existing US radars then the US has to scramble for improvements across all front line aircrafts (including F16s)? The US will have to develop a more powerful radar in response. This is where the space limitations of F16 comes in... Note F15Es are expected to serve longer than F16s in USAF inventory.

Then it's only a game of ifs and buts. On paper the XL was better. The XL was a bigger aircraft than the regular F-16, so even that can be taken to consideration.

The F-15Cs and old F-16s will be retired. A lot of F-16s and F-15s will be upgraded with AESAs because of the F-35 delays.

 

[vanadium]

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .
Since we are almost close to the big announcement in just two weeks time , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org don't want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org

The enclosed article may be of interest in this context. Basically stating that the Rafale unit price at economical conditions 2011 for the F3 has increased €10m and is now €152 million.

[h=1]Rafale: l'avion qui coûte cher au contribuable[/h] Par Julie de la Brosse - publié le 08/12/2011 à 18:09
[h=2]Avant de rectifier le tir, le ministre de la Défense a évoqué jeudi l'arrêt de la production du Rafale, si ce dernier n'était pas vendu à l'étranger. Alors qu'il constitue une petite mine d'or pour Dassault, l'avion de combat tricolore revient très cher à l'Etat français.[/h]

Equipage du Charles de Gaulle travaillant sur un Rafale, 21 mars 2011.
REUTERS/ECPAD/MARINE NATIONALE/Rafael Martinez

Se serrer la ceinture, oui mais pas pour tout le monde. Et surtout pas pour l'industrie aéronautique de défense. Dans un récent rapport de la commission des affaires étrangères du Sénat, sur le projet de loi de Finances pour 2012, Xavier Pintat (UMP), et Daniel Reiner (PS) ont révélé les derniers chiffres concernant le programme du Rafale, du français Dassault Aviation. "Le coût total du programme, actualisé au prix de 2011, est de 43,56 milliards d'euros pour l'Etat avec le développement", indiquent les sénateurs. Et non plus de 40,7 milliards d'euros lors de la dernière évaluation.
Au total, le Rafale coûtera donc 152 millions d'euros l'unité, pour les 286 appareils qui figurent dans le livre blanc signé en 2004, contre 142 millions d'euros prévus antérieurement. Un nouveau chiffrage passé relativement inaperçu, mais qui questionne en cette période de crise budgétaire. A en croire le rapport, deux facteurs expliquent cette réévaluation : la prise en compte de l'inflation déjà, mais surtout la mise au standard F3 de 48 avions sur la période 2008-2010. Un standard plus moderne permettant entre autres choses l'assaut à la mer (missile AM 39 Exocet), la frappe nucléaire (missile ASMPA) et la reconnaissance avec la nacelle Reco NG.
Le Rafale en chiffres286 avions doivent être commandés au total
- 180 ont été commandés avant 2011
- 106 doivent l'être après 2014
43,56 milliards d'euros pour le contrat total
104 appareils livrés fin 201
17 appareils supplémentaires prévus à la livraison avant 2014
Soit un surplus de 1,1 milliard d'euros pour l'Etat français

Et ce n'est pas tout. En effet, l'absence de contrat à l'export a conduit les pouvoirs publics à avancer la livraison de 17 appareils sur la période 2009-2014, pour un total de 69 avions sur cette période. Dans la dernière loi de programmation militaire, il est en effet prévu que Dassault livrera 11 avions par an durant toute cette période, afin de maintenir la chaîne de production et ne pas mettre en danger la santé des sous-traitants. Mais dans leurs prévisions, l'industriel et le gouvernement tablaient sur la fabrication annuelle d'au moins cinq Rafales dédiés à l'export.
Dassault n'a pris aucun risqueFace aux multiples échecs de l'avion de combat omnirôle à l'étranger, l'Etat français a donc pris la relève. Un dispositif qui ne manque pas de susciter des interrogations, notamment de la part des élus socialistes. "In fine, cela signifie que Dassault n'a pris aucun risque industriel ou financier sur ce contrat. Tout pèse actuellement sur l'Etat français. Ce qui sous-entend aussi que Dassault n'a pas vraiment intérêt à exporter le Rafale...", explique ainsi Daniel Reiner à L'Expansion.com.
A en croire les estimations des députés, ce sont donc 1,1 milliard d'euros supplémentaires qui devront être déboursés sur la période 2011-2013. Pour les sénateurs auteurs du rapport, le plus dommageable reste que ce sont les autres programmes militaires qui in fine vont être pénalisés par ces déboires. En 2012, le Rafale absorbera à lui seul plus de 35% du budget des dépenses d'équipements du ministère de la Défense. La rénovation du Mirage 2000D prévue depuis des années sera par exemple reportée, ce qui va porter "atteinte à la cohérence d'ensemble de nos forces armées", estime le rapport.
Autre problème de fond, celui du coût de l'appareil, qui est bien plus élevé que s'il s'était exporté. "Dans les contrats signés entre l'Etat et Dassault, une partie du prix des avions correspond au coût du développement de l'appareil", explique Daniel Reiner. En cas de vente à l'étranger, il est donc certain que le Rafale ne se vendrait pas 152 millions d'euros l'unité, car les coûts de développement seraient alors partagés par plusieurs pays clients.

Le ministre de la Défense Gérard Longuet a évoqué jeudi l'arrêt de la production du Rafale, si celui-ci n'était pas vendu à l'étranger.
Reuters/Benoit Tessier

Est-ce pour cette raison que Gérard Longuet a remis mercredi le sujet sur le tapis, peu après le dernier revers du Rafale en Suisse. Invité de "Questions d'Info" LCP/France Info/Le Monde/AFP, le ministre de la Défense a en effet déclaré que si Dassault ne parvenait pas à vendre son Rafale ailleurs qu'en France, il faudrait en arrêter la chaîne de production. Très vite il a été obligé de rectifier le tiren précisant que ceci n'arriverait pas avant 2030-2040... Et pour cause, après 2014, le livre blanc de 2008 prévoit encore la livraison de 149 appareils. Sûr que Dassault ne s'est pas privé de le rappeler au Ministre de la Défense !

 

[noob101]

^^^^^^^^ Dude English please

 

[vanadium]

^^^^^^^^ Dude English please

€152 million unit price at economical conditions 2011

 

[sukhish]

french can take that junk and sell it to some other countries along with their pride. Rafale was kept in just to bargain better terms
with EU fighter guys. other than that it had no other purpose whatsoever.

 

[arundo]

Rumours are rumours and have to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. And the decision seems to be just around the corner anyway. Having said that, the rationale behind the rumours seems to me to be pretty sound and solid:


Rafale spares are worth GOLD
French a/c tend to be the most expensive in this area. Another trick is to artificially reduce the flyaway price and shift it to the logistics package price so to get the lowest L1.
Corollary to this situation is that French upgrades tend also to be priced as GOLD (I will not quote any example for this corollary"¦)


Rafale are cheaper to operate
Typhoon is a bigger airplane with more powerful engines and with a bigger movable AESA radar. It carries expandable towed decoys to considerably improve its survival (which Rafale does not have). So I would not be surprised if it were slightly more expensive to operate. On the other hand Typhoon will have greater survivability in air combat and same in surface attack. At the end of the day it will be the more cost-effective solution.


Typhoon weapon package is cheaper
AMRAAM is by far cheaper than MICA EM (see recent cost figures for Mirage 2000)
IRIS-T or ASRAAM or AIM-9L are by far cheaper than MICA IR (and you have a choice of suppliers, which is always good)
Paveway precision guided munitions are by far cheaper than French equivalent


Eurofighter offers better ToT
Truly a no brainer, as the combined industrial strength of EADS, BAES and Finmeccanica plus Rolls-Royce and MTU (and their supplier base) is by far stronger, technologically richer and covering almost all kinds of high-tech products.
And last but not least, Germans deliver what they promise with teutonic precision and reliability, while the French side is strong on words but weaker on facts"¦


Eurofighter offers partner status
Partnership, co-operation, sharing of technology is part of the Eurofighter DNA and has been proven over 40 years of operations (having started with the Panavia Tornado). It has benefited enormously the last partner to join, i.e. Spain which counts now as one of the most advanced countries in aeronautics in Europe. Previously it gave also Italy a big boost.
India would start from a very strong industrial and scientific base and would give the consortium a big boost in terms of benefits of scale. The consortium is likely to be the starting organisation for the conception, design and production of the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] Generation fighter for the 2030-40s. In an ever closer and opening world, continental boundaries are strictures of the past, and India would be already sitting at the founding fathers table. If your vision is smart and forward looking, the advantage of the consortium offer is not to be under estimated.

If everything was as clear as that, Indians wouldn't take more than twice as long as announced early November calculating and checking figures.
Everybody knows that this is a very close decision and that a lot speaks for Rafale too. Needless to repeat that Rafale is a fully mature developed mrca with mission approved efficiency which was better ranked than its direct competitor in almost every single technical evaluation from 2001 to 2009 and even in A2A by the Swiss. That the Swiss ranking was based only on WVR is pure speculation and lacks evidence. Since you are praising "German virtues" to the sky, it will not be easy to imply sloppiness to the Swiss.. BTW according to many sources, Rafale dominated Typhoon in BVR and WVR in 2009 at ATLC. I can't comment, but almost couldn't find opposing sources. Of course, you will deny (what else).. AESA Radar entered production already and will be integrated by 2013.. The possibility of upgrading to a more powerful engine is given.

EF is a story of never ending delays and cost explosions. It was designed as an air superiority aircraft and the consortium didn't manage to set up satisfying A2G capabilities so far. It won't until 2018, according to NAO. In Libya EF's missions were mainly limited on protecting the striking Tornados in not really disputed skies. AESA is somewhere in the pipeline and will not be available earlier than 2015... without the usual delay... Furthermore, EF seems to have problems in terms of logistics / spares, according to NAO again.
The status of 5th partner for India consists in getting a new country to pay the bill for the extra costs that will be necessary to develop Typhoon's A2G capabilities and the new radar in a perspective of upcoming budget cuts planned by the partner countries. Typhoon's horrendous maintenance costs have been pointed out by the NAO, Germany and Austria. In France, where the Rafale project has also been subject to discussions because of horrendous costs, the operating costs amount to about 40% less.
Furthermore, there are rumors that Saudi Arabia is not really satisfied with the so far delivered Typhoons.

As we are talking about a mrca tender, the striking capabilities shown over Libya should give the overall edge to Rafale (a basic property, that Typhoon will need at least 6 years more to demonstrate). While Rafale's A2A inferiority has not been proven so far, it is the superior MRCA aircraft.Finally, India seems to be quite satisfied with the French cooperation so far. "German thoroughness" is not more than an outdated cliche, and you can believe me, I am well placed to write this..do not forget, that many Germans attribute a certain laxism to... Austrians Perhaps German accuracy is not enough to meet deadlines ...(or perhaps it is "eroding"..)
The technical-operational advantages of Rafale as a MRCA resp. missing basic operational capabilities of Typhoon can only be compensated or outweighed by the support of 4 countries vs. one and the politic and economic pressure that can be put to India.

 

[arundo]

€152 million unit price at economical conditions 2011

"En cas de vente à l'étranger, il est donc certain que le Rafale ne se vendrait pas 152 millions d'euros l'unité, car les coûts de développement seraient alors partagés par plusieurs pays clients."
"In case of exporting the Rafale, the price wouldn't be 152 million €, as development costs would be shared". Needless to say, that the high costs are the result of the small number of produced aircrafts, but this is the same at Eurofighter Gmbh (which had higher development costs).
We should not forget, that today one EF costs 75% more than initially calculated.
According to several sources, the Rafale is slightly cheaper than EF in India.

""The Typhoon is currently performing important operational tasks but the full multi-role capability won't be available for a number of years. Until this happens theMOD will not have secured value for money from its over £20 billioninvestment in Typhoon. MOD has put some of the building blocks inplace to enable this to happen. But difficult and deep-rootedproblems remain to beovercome. "Our examination has shown that key investment decisions were taken on an over-optimistic basis; the project suffered from corporate decisions to try to balance the defence budget; and the Department did not predict the substantial rate at which costs would rise. None of this suggests good cost control, a key determinant of value for money."
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, 2 March 2011
The Typhoon fighter aircraft is already fulfilling some key defence tasks but it is unlikely to reach itsfull potential as a multi-role aircraft until 2018, according to a National Audit Office report to Parliament. Getting full value for money from the significant investment in the project will depend on the MOD's successfully progressing the delivery of multi-role capability so that the aircraft can be deployed when required and affordably....Typhoon already successfully undertakes air defence tasks and so far MOD has committed a total of £564 million to upgrade Typhoon for the ground attack role. However, it is unlikely to become the aircraft of choice for most ground attack missions until 2018.
The cost of the Typhoon project has risen substantially. Despite the MOD's now buying 72 fewer aircraft (down from 232 to 160, a reduction of 30 per cent), the forecast development and production cost has risen by 20 per cent to £20.2 billion. This is a 75 per cent increase in the unit cost of each aircraft. The cost of supporting each aircraft has also risen by a third above that originally expected. The MOD now estimates that,by the time the aircraft leaves service, some £37 billion will have been spent.

Management of the Typhoon Project - National Audit Office

 

[p2prada]

€152 million unit price at economical conditions 2011

That's not fly away price. Not an issue here. Fly away price is less than $100million for both.

 

[vanadium]

That's not fly away price. Not an issue here. Fly away price is less than $100million for both.

Of course is not

 

[arundo]

Almost 500 MICA missiles for 40 aircrafts is a huge number. France has only ordered 1100 MICA for a many times larger number of aircrafts.
Is IAF planning to use those missiles on other aircrafts than Mirage ? Could the European consortium be asked to integrate MICA on Typhoon?

 

[vanadium]

If everything was as clear as that, Indians wouldn't taken more than twice as long as announced early November calculating and checking figures.
Everybody knows that this is a very close decision and that a lot speaks for Rafale too. Needless to repeat that Rafale is a fully mature developed mrca with mission approvedefficiency which was better ranked than its direct competitor in almostevery single technical evaluation from 2001 to 2009 and even in A2A by the Swiss. That theSwiss ranking was based only on WVR is pure speculation and lacks evidence.Since you are praising "German virtues" to the sky, it will not be easy to imply sloppiness to the Swiss.. BTW according to many sources, Rafale dominated Typhoon in BVR andWVR in 2009 at ATLC. I can't comment, but almost couldn't findopposing sources. Of course, you will deny (what else)..AESA Radar entered production alreadyand will be integrated by 2013.. The possibility of upgrading to a morepowerful engine is given.

EF is a story of never ending delays and cost explosions. It was designed as an air superiority aircraft and the consortium didn't manage to set up satisfying A2G capabilities so far. It won't until 2018, according to NAO. In Libya EF's missions were mainly limited on protecting the striking Tornados in not really disputed skies. AESA is somewhere in the pipeline and will not be available earlier than 2015... without the usual delay... Furthermore, EF seems to have problems in terms of logistics / spares, according to NAO again.
The status of 5th partner for India consists in getting a new country to pay the bill for the extra costs that will be necessary to develop Typhoon's A2G capabilities and the new radar in a perspective of upcoming budget cuts planned by the partner countries. Typhoon's horrendous maintenance costs have been pointed out by the NAO, Germany and Austria. In France, where the Rafale project has also been subject to discussions because of horrendous costs, the operating costs amount to about 40% less.
Furthermore, there are rumors that Saudi Arabia is not really satisfied with the so far delivered Typhoons.

As we are talking about a mrca tender, the striking capabilities shown over Libya should give the overall edge to Rafale (a basic property, that Typhoon will need at least 6 years more to demonstrate). While Rafale's A2A inferiority has not been proven so far, it is the superior MRCA aircraft.Finally, India seems to be quite satisfied with the Frenchcooperation so far. "German thoroughness" is notmore than an outdated cliche, and you can believe me, I am well placed to write this..do not forget, that many Germans attribute a certain laxityto... Austrians Perhaps German accuracy is not enough to meet deadlines ...(or perhaps it is "eroding"..)
The technical-operational advantages of Rafale as a MRCA resp. missing basic operational capabilities of Typhoon can only be compensated or outweighed by the support of 4 countries vs. one and the politic and economic pressure that can be put to India.

My comments were related to punctual and very actual issues highlighted by the rumours circulating.

Going back to the origins of the world is a way to throw some fog on these very contemporary issues of price, spares, ToT, etc.

As far as the IAF is concerned both a/c made the grade. Now the debate is centered around the issues highlighted in that rumours (and more of similar nature) posting. Your comments do not address those points and go in every directions except facing those very specific issues.

I think one could debate forever on the history, delays, different priorities followed by the two programs ( and think this has been done ad nauseam). But the whole exercise becomes of academical value only, as the two jets are declared suitable for the IAF and now the ball is in the financial, industrial and geo political arena.

 

[vanadium]

Almost 500 MICA missiles for 40 aircrafts is a huge number. France has only ordered 1100 MICA for a many times larger number of aircrafts.
Is IAF planning to use those missiles on other aircrafts than Mirage ? Could the European consortium be asked to integrate MICA on Typhoon?

They could ask and I believe EF would ready to integrate them and add another option in the weapons inventory, but I guess this is unlikely.

A better candidate could be the Su-30MKI

I understand they would also be quite a good fit for Rafale... Their fuselage installation on those ugly pylons would add a lot of drag, but a more powerful engine could easily compensate for that.

 

[noob101]

Let me sum up all that i know till now, please correct me if I am wrong

1 It seems both the aircraft are more or less equal in capabilities.... what air superiority the Typhoon has it presently lacks in A2G but will be developed, Rafale seems to have good A2G and not as good air superiority .... Rafale has ASEA Typhoon not until 2015 at least, but experts are saying Typhoon will have a larger radar so hence a better one....

2 looks like prices are about the same with the Rafale lower fly away cost but high weapons and spares cost with a higher overall cost
,Typhoon lower over all cost with an agreement for all spares to be produced in India ...

3 Rafale has commonality with the Mirage weapons plus in general commonality with the IAF, Typhoon will be a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF

4 According to rumors the ToT with Eurofighter is the better than the Rafale, along with an offer for partnership to India in future development of Typhoon, dont know what this really means though it might be they just need cash for further development of the A2G capabilities and other stuff also dont know if this partnership will extend to future aircraft development. As far as i know there is no such partnership offered by Dassult.

5 Dont know about other perks that are offered please anyone tell me if I missed anything.... In my opinion the French have a slight advantage in the fact that they themselves make the decision in what can be given as added perks with the deal for example help with nuclear submarine construction... where as with the consortium all the nations would have to agree I dont think the Brits will help India with a SSN. but we can get a lot more out of a 4 nation group than with France if we play our cards right....

will the experts who are neutral tell me if what i posted is correct?

 

[tiranga]

Eurofighter selected in MMRCA deal - rumours

MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org Read the story here, although its just a rumour, which the article claims is from some military officer

 

[The Messiah]

http://defenceforumindia.com/members/armand2rep.html*Armand deletes his account*

 

[Apollyon]

Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD

Why Eurofighter ?Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .and we expect our readers not to take it seriously

Rafael spares being expensive, WTF ..aren't we getting ToT so we could manufacture our own spares ​