India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[Yawn]

The new EPE engine does offer upto 20% increase in thrust for the SH and with lighter materials should have a lower overall weight thus allowing for faster acceleration particularly in the transonic and super sonic regimes. It remains cheaper to operate during a life time and has a very well defined upgrade path.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-
42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:98ca66c5-16cc-44a7-bfa3-45d1436e826f

The SH is gr8 overall aircraft, its can perform all the roles required from an aircraft really well. The flexibility of operations give us advantages that no other aircraft can give. EF and Raffy though good are more like hanger queens that will end up being extremely expensive to operate over time. with the MKI and it super 30 upgrade coming and PAKFA, LCA mk1/2, we will have enough fighters to perform air defense and air superiority missions. What we need in the MRCA is a pure reliable and truly multirole fighter. SH is the most multirole aircraft there is. With its vast array of reasonable priced weapons to off the shelf tech and fresh tech being injected into the aircraft all the time, it will remain a potent aircraft for quite sometime.

That said, Raffy doesn't seem as reliable, the many emergency landings in libya and a bigger crash history suggest something is wrong with the aircraft. EF is a better and safer option.

And exactly how many emergency landings did the Rafale make? the vast majority of emergency landings were for the Mirage F-1. May be you should also read up on the wing drop issue that the Super Hornet .

 

[Immanuel]

And exactly how many emergency landings did the Rafale make? the vast majority of emergency landings were for the Mirage F-1. May be you should also read up on the wing drop issue that the Super Hornet .

The wing drop issue has been solved a real long time ago.

F/A-18E/F "Super Hornet"

SH is now easily the most reliable aircraft used in the world used in some of the harshest conditions. The reliability is unparalleled.

 

[asianobserve]

The wing drop issue has been solved a real long time ago.

F/A-18E/F "Super Hornet"

SH is now easily the most reliable aircraft used in the world used in some of the harshest conditions. The reliability is unparalleled.

 

[p2prada]

I believe the E uses the biggest CFTs (about 800 gallons each) for precisely that scenario. The XL would never have been able to fit such CFTS given its basic design configuration.

The XLs never needed to. The current F-16 with it's drop tanks give 4000Km while the F-15 with 3 drop tanks and CFT gives around the same as the BM. The XL provided 50% more range with the same config. Internally the F-16 carries 3 tons of fuel while XL carries 6 tons internally. The F-15 carries 6 tons internally, has 2 engines and more drag than the XL. Clean figures.

The XL outranged the Su-35BM with 2 2000L external fuel tanks(5500Km). You think this is not enough. The F-15E needs 2 external tanks to match the XL's range with internal fuel.

Like I said, the XL was cheaper and better to operate compared to the F-15 and provided more flexibility. It conformed to requirements but failed to materialize only because the F-15 had too few orders. The F-15E orders decreased the cost of operation and cost of procurement of the USAF F-15 fleet by a good margin.

The XL would not have benefited the USAF for political reasons as F-16 already had orders in the thousands.

 

[Param]

The second picture is beautiful.

 

[asianobserve]

The XLs never needed to. The current F-16 with it's drop tanks give 4000Km while the F-15 with 3 drop tanks and CFT gives around the same as the BM. xxx

I came across this Facebook account for F15E (imagine F15E has a Facebook account, how gay!):

"One of the prime reasons the USAF selected the F-15E over the F-16XL was the F-15E's 40% lower development costs. Other reasons were the F-15E's greater room for growth and better survivability with two engines. The Air Force initially planned to purchase 392 F-15Es."​

In other words, the F15E presented the least risk and greater growth for the USAF program.F-15E Strike Eagle | Facebook

 

[JAISWAL]

MMRCA Rumors

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .
Since we are almost close to the big announcement in just two weeks time , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org don't want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org

 

[p2prada]

I came across this Facebook account for F15E (imagine F15E has a Facebook account, how gay!):

"One of the prime reasons the USAF selected the F-15E over the F-16XL was the F-15E's 40% lower development costs. Other reasons were the F-15E's greater room for growth and better survivability with two engines. The Air Force initially planned to purchase 392 F-15Es."​

In other words, the F15E presented the least risk and greater growth for the USAF program.F-15E Strike Eagle | Facebook

Yeah! This has already been mentioned. The F-16 was the better aircraft. But the F-15 was chosen nevertheless.

A bigger aircraft has better growth potential, but looking at the current growth curve, both F-15 and F-16 are equally advanced with the exception of the radar.

 

[p2prada]

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .
Since we are almost close to the big announcement in just two weeks time , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org don't want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org

Anybody can make up crap like this. Don't post poor quality info. It's a 50-50 chance for any guesswork to come true in this deal. So, people will like to profit from the gullible.

 

[vanadium]

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .
Since we are almost close to the big announcement in just two weeks time , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org don't want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org

Rumours are rumours and have to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. And the decision seems to be just around the corner anyway. Having said that, the rationale behind the rumours seems to me to be pretty sound and solid:


Rafale spares are worth GOLD
French a/c tend to be the most expensive in this area. Another trick is to artificially reduce the flyaway price and shift it to the logistics package price so to get the lowest L1.
Corollary to this situation is that French upgrades tend also to be priced as GOLD (I will not quote any example for this corollary"¦)


Rafale are cheaper to operate
Typhoon is a bigger airplane with more powerful engines and with a bigger movable AESA radar. It carries expandable towed decoys to considerably improve its survival (which Rafale does not have). So I would not be surprised if it were slightly more expensive to operate. On the other hand Typhoon will have greater survivability in air combat and same in surface attack. At the end of the day it will be the more cost-effective solution.


Typhoon weapon package is cheaper
AMRAAM is by far cheaper than MICA EM (see recent cost figures for Mirage 2000)
IRIS-T or ASRAAM or AIM-9L are by far cheaper than MICA IR (and you have a choice of suppliers, which is always good)
Paveway precision guided munitions are by far cheaper than French equivalent


Eurofighter offers better ToT
Truly a no brainer, as the combined industrial strength of EADS, BAES and Finmeccanica plus Rolls-Royce and MTU (and their supplier base) is by far stronger, technologically richer and covering almost all kinds of high-tech products.
And last but not least, Germans deliver what they promise with teutonic precision and reliability, while the French side is strong on words but weaker on facts"¦


Eurofighter offers partner status
Partnership, co-operation, sharing of technology is part of the Eurofighter DNA and has been proven over 40 years of operations (having started with the Panavia Tornado). It has benefited enormously the last partner to join, i.e. Spain which counts now as one of the most advanced countries in aeronautics in Europe. Previously it gave also Italy a big boost.
India would start from a very strong industrial and scientific base and would give the consortium a big boost in terms of benefits of scale. The consortium is likely to be the starting organisation for the conception, design and production of the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] Generation fighter for the 2030-40s. In an ever closer and opening world, continental boundaries are strictures of the past, and India would be already sitting at the founding fathers table. If your vision is smart and forward looking, the advantage of the consortium offer is not to be under estimated.

 

[vanadium]

And exactly how many emergency landings did the Rafale make? the vast majority of emergency landings were for the Mirage F-1. May be you should also read up on the wing drop issue that the Super Hornet .

Rafale won the competition of emergency landings in Malta during the Libyan ops!
Not so much know is the fact that Rafale also had a high number of aborted missions due to failure to release weapons.

You seem out of date for the serious wing drop problem that emerged early on during the development of the Superbug, but which was fixed during the development phase.

 

[vanadium]

Marines have no need of a full spec SH. Hornets are more than enough to handle the kind of work they need done. Furthermore, Marine budgets need them to invest in all 3 types of platforms, air, land and sea. Furthermore, the main reason why they didn't go for SH is because they are getting the F-35 STOVL, ordering the SH would inevitably result in F-35B orders being chopped which they are trying hard to avoid. delays in the F-35 thus resulted in marine orders being chopped first, shows that they have many needs and very tight budgets.

Had the Super offered any compelling value beyond some higher bring back load (without an excessive drop in performance; see difference in curves between F/A-18C and -E), they may have procured them and ended up with a two-type fleet, just as the Navy. They fly two types right now. The USMC flew up to recently a/c such as the F-4, A-6 and EA-6 so I do not see why they could not fly the Super...had this a/c offered some extra value. I guess they would rather buy some extra second hand Hornets and Harrier AV-8B.

 

[vanadium]

So, if that is what you want to point out, can you update the information in that graph with Rafale, EF and the flanker, and show how it would look like?

Typhoon would closely match the F-22 curve all the way to Mach 2.0.

On Rafale, the first observation is that its envelope is limited to Mach 1.8. Secondly, its engine thrust and specific excess power starts to tail off at around M1.3 - M1.4, so from then onwards the curve would start to flatten in a pattern similar to the F/A-18C.

It is no secret that Rafale is underpowered, especially in the critical BVR domain. That is the reason for the need of the M88-3. That is the reason the UAE will not go ahead with procuring Rafale unless Dassault sorts out this critical aspect.

 

[noob101]

If the Eurofighter is offering India complete partnership then I think it is a no brainier, Although i think the partnership only extends only to the future development of the Typhoon program... can anyone confirm the exact nature of the partnership being offered?

 

[asianobserve]

A bigger aircraft has better growth potential, but looking at the current growth curve, both F-15 and F-16 are equally advanced with the exception of the radar.

And this is the most crucial offensive and defensive system of the fighter. The nose cone of the F16 is simply too small to be fitted with more powerful (larger) radars.

 

[vanadium]

If the Eurofighter is offering India complete partnership then I think it is a no brainier, Although i think the partnership only extends only to the future development of the Typhoon program... can anyone confirm the exact nature of the partnership being offered?

I use my experience and judgment, but have no clue on the actual offer. I would say it is a no brainer if EF used the huge potential at their disposal in the ToT area, but if they don´t then it is no longer a "no brainer". One assumes such entities to behave rationally, but that is not always a certainty.

I agree with you that the partnership will be on Typhoon development; that is all which can be offered.

I use my judgment and historical precedents, i.e. the Tornado partners formed the core block for Eurofighter to which Spain was an additional member. I guess that the Eurofighter experience, structure and organizational skills can form the new core block of countries when the 6th Generation Fighter will start taking shape. It would make eminent sense. You would not have to re-invent the wheel. If India is already a member of the consortium it will seat at the table of those who will participate as equal partners in this next big project. If so it wishes, of course!
n

 

[vanadium]

And this is the most crucial offensive and defensive system of the fighter. The nose cone of the F16 is simply too small to be fitted with more powerful (larger) radars.

Which brings me to some of the key differentiators in Typhoon vs Rafale: the radar aperture!!!
Rafale will have to live forever with the consequences of a poor design solution, of a small radar aperture (one of the areas of big debate when both projects were unified).

 

[asianobserve]

 

[p2prada]

And this is the most crucial offensive and defensive system of the fighter. The nose cone of the F16 is simply too small to be fitted with more powerful (larger) radars.

You don't need powerful radars for strike. Heck most strike aircraft don't even carry radars.

The nose cone of the F-16 can still fit a radar more powerful and more capable than the Captor or RBE-2, which it already does. Is that not enough?

 

[arya]

if i have to send both rafale and eurofigher to attack on china which plane has more chance to come back safe ??guys neither rafale nor eurofighter will going to first line so dont waste more time we should work on drones we need planes advance +stealth+witout pilot so we should think about that cant we convert pakfa as an drone