India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[tiranga]

I already said this

 

[Immanuel]

Whether Ef or Rafale win, its important to know, both will have a lot of development, testing and training in IAF. IAF will most likely go for an all Unkil weapons pack with weapons like JDAM/L/ER, PAVEWAY family, SLAM/ER, JSOW, CBU97/105SFW, SDB, AAGRM (upgraded HARM), AIM-120C-7/D (if cleared for export) till Meteor is available, AIM-9X Block 2 or Issy Python-5. these weapons make more sense as they are most of them combat proven and are available at very reasonable prices. Nearly all the above listed ground munitions can be used against armored targets, bunkers, moving targets. The European equivalents are often 2 to 3 times more expensive, often not as effective and cannot be acquired in large numbers.

Both contenders will undergo customization and we are bound to see the most advanced variants of the types to be operated by IAF no matter which one is chosen. Raffy having the ability to deploy a particular cruise missile while EF not being able to deploy that same weapon at this point of time is of no concern to the IAF. IAF will have its own set of US, Israeli and Indian weapons deployed on them.

Lots of existing modern weapons in our A2G inventory will also end up being integrated. So both aircraft will need work. The first 18 aircraft will be primarily be used to train up future pilots, have customized weapons integration and basic development of tactics. Furthermore, they will also undergo lots of weapons trials in local conditions, user acceptance trails are always key. It is only after the first 18 aircraft will we begin to see the standard version for the different phases. By the time we reach phase 3 or 4 in 2020+ we'll begin making the entire aircraft by ourselves. That said both aircraft are great and will require a whole different set of tactics, we can be sure that IAF will be the finest operator of the type in the world, due to focus on training and tactics.

That said, I do believe that the rumors point to EF being L-1 could be true. The EF consortium has a lot to gain from having a full-tot line in India which allows them to offer EFs at a lower cost to customers. EF spares and even critical parts made in India will find their way into the global EF supply chain. We could very well be seeing made in India EF's being exported to other buyers in the region. To have a complete EF line in India is something they certainly thought of carefully and must have quoted lower prices knowing well in advance that having a production line in India will bring in more customers due to lower prices. Furthermore, they for sure know that IAF will truly turn the EF into the real multirole aircraft it was designed to be in the first place. EF's main criticisms have been its not fully developed A2G capabilities, once IAF begins operating it, many will line up to buy it. Hence by making us partner in the consortium, they have checkmated Rafale with better industrial offsets, over all prospect for indian industry and may be even lower price/life cycle cost since India would manufacture everything itself. With EF consortium saying they would give out the entire blueprint of EF to India if we were to buy, Indian could fund it's own upgrades. Though fly away might have been cheaper with Rafale, it is easy to imagine EF would be cheaper to operate because we would essentially upgrade EFs ourselves during MLU with our own home made tech or jointly develop them with consortium partners sharing the risk.

 

[arundo]

Whether Ef or Rafale win, its important to know, both will have a lot of development, testing and training in IAF. IAF will most likely go for an all Unkil weapons pack with weapons like JDAM/L/ER, PAVEWAY family, SLAM/ER, JSOW, CBU97/105SFW, SDB, AAGRM (upgraded HARM), AIM-120C-7/D (if cleared for export) till Meteor is available, AIM-9X Block 2 or Issy Python-5. these weapons make more sense as they are most of them combat proven and are available at very reasonable prices. Nearly all the above listed ground munitions can be used against armored targets, bunkers, moving targets. The European equivalents are often 2 to 3 times more expensive, often not as effective and cannot be acquired in large numbers.

Both contenders will undergo customization and we are bound to see the most advanced variants of the types to be operated by IAF no matter which one is chosen. Raffy having the ability to deploy a particular cruise missile while EF not being able to deploy that same weapon at this point of time is of no concern to the IAF. IAF will have its own set of US, Israeli and Indian weapons deployed on them.

Lots of existing modern weapons in our A2G inventory will also end up being integrated. So both aircraft will need work. The first 18 aircraft will be primarily be used to train up future pilots, have customized weapons integration and basic development of tactics. Furthermore, they will also undergo lots of weapons trials in local conditions, user acceptance trails are always key. It is only after the first 18 aircraft will we begin to see the standard version for the different phases. By the time we reach phase 3 or 4 in 2020+ we'll begin making the entire aircraft by ourselves. That said both aircraft are great and will require a whole different set of tactics, we can be sure that IAF will be the finest operator of the type in the world, due to focus on training and tactics.

That said, I do believe that the rumors point to EF being L-1 could be true. The EF consortium has a lot to gain from having a full-tot line in India which allows them to offer EFs at a lower cost to customers. EF spares and even critical parts made in India will find their way into the global EF supply chain. We could very well be seeing made in India EF's being exported to other buyers in the region. To have a complete EF line in India is something they certainly thought of carefully and must have quoted lower prices knowing well in advance that having a production line in India will bring in more customers due to lower prices. Furthermore, they for sure know that IAF will truly turn the EF into the real multirole aircraft it was designed to be in the first place. EF's main criticisms have been its not fully developed A2G capabilities, once IAF begins operating it, many will line up to buy it. Hence by making us partner in the consortium, they have checkmated Rafale with better industrial offsets, over all prospect for indian industry and may be even lower price/life cycle cost since India would manufacture everything itself. With EF consortium saying they would give out the entire blueprint of EF to India if we were to buy, Indian could fund it's own upgrades. Though fly away might have been cheaper with Rafale, it is easy to imagine EF would be cheaper to operate because we would essentially upgrade EFs ourselves during MLU with our own home made tech or jointly develop them with consortium partners sharing the risk.

A sober reflection that can be acknowledged.

 

[Cola]

Asia times, May 12:
"The source, who asked not to be identified by name, said that air-superiority fighter jets with secondary ground-strike capabilities, for example the F-16 and the Mirage 2000, had failed miserably to change facts on the ground in the campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi."

Dunno who wrote it and what is his opinion based upon.
All I can say is this counters actual situation in the field.

 

[sukhish]

I just filtered out today that you are only ruminating what EF folders are saying. Congrats. I think you should really be careful with the word "bullshit". Your biased opinion is of no importance and of course Mirage 2000 and F-16 played a little a2g role during the Libya war, finally. You should accept that some people have better insight and refrain from remote diagnosis.

Mr arundo,
I have said many times in this forum and I will repeat it again, Rafale belongs to aero museam. EU fighter has a lot
of flexibility and a room to improve, this where Indians will gets experince with there EU counterparts and also
in every technical aspect it is superior to rafale. be engine, A to A capabilty etc etc. and also it will help tremendreaosuly
to get permanent UN seat

 

[arundo]

Mr arundo,
I have said many times in this forum and I will repeat it again, Rafale belongs to aero museam. EU fighter has a lot
of flexibility and a room to improve, this where Indians will gets experince with there EU counterparts and also
in every technical aspect it is superior to rafale. be engine, A to A capabilty etc etc. and also it will help tremendreaosuly
to get permanent UN seat

Mr Sukhish,
I have understood that you do not like the French and that your preference is just an emotional one which hardly misses objective reasons. I guess you mean "museum", but I regret to tell you that this is not the opinion of experts. I agree with you, that there is lot of room to improve EF (there is indeed), of course, as this aircraft has been an "orgy" of shortcomings so far... and I regret that neither some evidence that Rafale performed better as well in head to head BVR as in Libya, nor the fruitful French-Indian co-operation couldn't eliminate your prejudices. Unlike my Austrian "friend" I am not a trained lobbyist and tried to base my opinion on many sources and not only on the argumentation guidelines of one competitor.
I think that India deserves the better and more mature product instead of a delay characterized bottomless pit.
I wish all the best to Indian Airforce and more satisfaction than the other customers with the EF. Finally, it is not the EF that will win the competition, but only the political weight of 4 nations vs. 1. Of course the permanent UN seat is worth a lot, but I thin that French would have managed that.

FYI I am not French, but German and therefore impartial as far as nations are concerned.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets
LiveMint, Jan 9

New Delhi: The Eurofighter Typhoon"‹ may have emerged as the lowest bidder (L1) in the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), according to people familiar with the matter.Mint could not independently verify this. The two remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be called by the defence ministry on Thursday, these people said on condition of anonymity.


The Eurofighter Typhoon is promoted by European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., or EADS. The other contender vying for the L1 slot is the Rafale, promoted by Dassault SA.

Sitanshu Kar, the defence ministry's spokesperson, declined to comment.Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper, both from the US and initially seen to be among the frontrunners, Russia's Mikoyan MiG-35"‹ and Sweden's Saab JAS 39 Gripen were the other contenders.The defence ministry short-listed the Eurofighter and the Rafale after extensive field trials. The shortlist was announced on 29 April. The deal is potentially worth $10 billion, which would make it the single largest defence deal India has ever struck.

It seems EF is going to get the deal, Anyways will see..

 

[ace009]

Wow! That must have been a real close call! I am sad for Rafale, but as I have always voted for the EF - I am happy too. Overall I will just be relieved that the f**king nautanki is finally coming to an end!

 

[mayfair]

FYI I am not French, but German and therefore impartial as far as nations are concerned.

Isn't Germany a major constituent of the Eurofighter program?

 

[nitesh]

I think this is rumor as of now:

Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper

PS: Oh already posted

 

[SpArK]

2 days from now result will be announced.

 

[Cola]

...EF (there is indeed), of course, as this aircraft has been an "orgy" of shortcomings so far...

How much flying hours you got on EF?

 

[anoop_mig25]

well it from net and all credits goes to original writer but i agree with the said writer

Some notes on this:

I heard there is a provision in the terms saying that despite of being a lowest bidder there is no guarantee the contract will be awarded. It further says that India has the right to select according to the Nation's strategic interest. So we have the choice entirely.

History says France act independent of US. EF countries proved again and again they oblige US in all matters.

The EF has loads of technology from US due to which full TOT is very doubtful.

We need A2G fighter so Rafale suits our needs better. We can rely on France too.

When we have SU 30 MKI why should we go for another similar fighter?

Was awarding French firm 2 days ago an order for 490 MICA missile an indicator that EF will be selected?

Is India trying to satisfy all super powers of the world by awarding each one each contract? If this is the UPA strategy its very pathetic. This is a lot of amount of money in Indian standards and this is about dealing with protecting the Mother Land

 

[arya]

lets wait 2 day as spark says

 

[arundo]

Isn't Germany a major constituent of the Eurofighter program?

Yes it is (even if UK has provided a larger part to EF), but I do not think in national categories Despite my nationality I am willing to admit that other countries can provide better products.

 

[arundo]

How much flying hours you got on EF?

and you?
needless to say that flying an EF just means that you are likely to be very biased (if you do). It is obvious that German or UK pilots will say that Typhoon is the best you can get as much as French pilots will say that Rafale is the better one. Prior to the Swiss decision there were French, German Pilots and Gripen pilots each one praising their own jet to the sky.. I guess you will be surprised.
Technical evaluations have been made by several countries and Rafale was ahead in more or less every case: NL, S-Korea, Singapore, Brazil and CH and the evaluators tried both...
trange matter of a fact.

 

[vanadium]

2 days from now result will be announced.

Rumours do not matter. Let us be patient and wait for the official announcements, which should not be too far away.
For what regards some of the rationales on which this rumours are based upon, I gave my opinion a couple of days ago but would not say more and feed the flames of the rumour mill.
Again this has been one of the most professionally conducted tenders in the fighter business and has highlighted that Typhoon and Rafale represent today the most formidable and versatile fighters on the market for customers facing a potentially serious threat environment. This is what can be said from the assessment carried out by the IAF. We shall see soon how the other elements of the complex equation have contributed to the emergence of the winner.

 

[Cola]

Well arundo, you apparently don't have a single hour on the type and yet you figure the EF is an orgy of shortcomings?
Is it because somebody told you so, or you just know it, or what?

 

[p2prada]

and you?
needless to say that flying an EF just means that you are likely to be very biased (if you do). It is obvious that German or UK pilots will say that Typhoon is the best you can get as much as French pilots will say that Rafale is the better one. Prior to the Swiss decision there were French, German Pilots and Gripen pilots each one praising their own jet to the sky.. I guess you will be surprised.
Technical evaluations have been made by several countries and Rafale was ahead in more or less every case: NL, S-Korea, Singapore, Brazil and CH and the evaluators tried both...
trange matter of a fact.

An American General had good things to say about the EF. You can take his word for it.

Both IAF and IN had good things to say about Rafale. You can bet on that.

In the end the American fighters were rejected. I am happy.

 

[arundo]

Well arundo, you apparently don't have a single hour on the type and yet you figure the EF is an orgy of shortcomings?
Is it because somebody told you so, or you just know it, or what?

Who has a single hour here (Vanadium?) and do you have or does he have a single hour on Rafale?
I never wrote that today's aircrafts have lots of shortcomings, but the project has been for a long time, is very late vs. the timetable and has been much more expensive than budgeted. I already linked to an article of the German News Magazine Der Spiegel, just as an example. The recent NAO report points out some problems too.
Excuse me to trust more not biased sources (and evaluations of several airforces) than EF sales argumentation guidelines, where of course everything is perfect.
If I offended you, I am sorry.