India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Bhadra]

India had its own geographical setup and even the British tackled this geography in its own ways... no airpower, horsepower or their best Navy in the world be of any use and give them respite in their campaign on NWFP... or subsequently in Burma Campaign .. one of the largest and unique campaigns not studied by today's horse sick Generals..

India's three tank divisions and about 16 Armoured brigades are always LOB and they will solve problems in West.. had that been so .. by now they would have .... but everyone knows that actually it is not so..

Still no harm in trying... for the time being let me see those light tanks coming somewhere near Indian defences in Ladakh..

 

[omaebakabaka]

No.

For centuries, India's anti horse technique was war elephants. They created havoc in the enemy cavalry.

After more thanna millenia and half, the enemy learned that elephants are difficult to control and if you spread panic in them, they will trample their own army. They did it by fire, by chilli smoke, by sounds etc.

Once the war elephants terror was gone, the faster and stronger cavalry of the enemy could flank the slow moving indian army.

Also the cavalry archer unit was another unit that caused many a defeat.

Yes, I read southern hindu kingdom of Krishnadevaraya in Hampi, Karnataka had massive elephant battalion but got drugged by the Deccan sultans and he eventually lost after defeating them many times. Beautiful arts and architecture during his time from what I have seen and read and almost everything destroyed. Perhaps knowledgeable kannadigas or Telugus can correct me.

 

[Bhurki]

I guess this makes some sense to a military thread.

Beijing high-speed rail link to Tibet begins construction.

Beijing high-speed rail link to Tibet begins construction.

Beijing has made plans for a new high-speed rail link to be built on the world’s highest plateau. They expect it to be up and running in five to eight years

constructionreviewonline.com

Chengdu to Lhasa Line - 1742 km
Cost - $44.7B
Completion - 2025 to 2028
Duration of travel - 9 hrs ( 36 hrs now)
*Chengdu is Western Theatre Command HQ.

..

 

[Bhadra]

So waht is the point of discussion ... that it is of utmost importance that India settles its land border on first priority. In that direction, India has tried assiduously in diplomatic front to settle their Borders with Myanmar and Bangladesh, Bhutan and Nepal.

On the Chinese / Tibet border and with Pakistan India has almost exhausted diplomacy and only military means are left to provide security to those borders,,

Those borders happen to be in such a terrain where modern technology-based swift and sharp operation has limited scopes and ranges. Hene, perforce Bhoop Singh is the main weapon and system.. His numbers can not be reduced as he can not be replaced by any physical of technological horse... aircraft or Naval ship.

That is it.. lump or keep it.

 

[omaebakabaka]

..

There is highspeed till Xining from which it takes about 24 hours to get into Lhasa today in ordinary train. The CRH trains in China max at close to 300 kph. Implications would be troops can be transferred quickly and in more numbers vs air transport. More than military, it makes easy to "chinesize" Tibet for lack of better word than it is today. So, not good for Tibetans and not good for India either.

 

[Lancer]

So waht is the point of discussion ... that it is of utmost importance that India settles its land border on first priority. In that direction, India has tried assiduously in diplomatic front to settle their Borders with Myanmar and Bangladesh, Bhutan and Nepal.

On the Chinese / Tibet border and with Pakistan India has almost exhausted diplomacy and only military means are left to provide security to those borders,,

Those borders happen to be in such a terrain where modern technology-based swift and sharp operation has limited scopes and ranges. Hene, perforce Bhoop Singh is the main weapon and system.. His numbers can not be reduced as he can not be replaced by any physical of technological horse... aircraft or Naval ship.

That is it.. lump or keep it.

Actively fan separatist movements in Pakistan, bring them to the same point as 1971 - in multiple regions - before supplying the final blow that breaks Pakistan into multiple, more pliable and cooperative nations.

Naturally military will still be needed to protect borders and possibly deal with issues in the new neighbor states - but the sort of forces we currently have dedicated to Pak certainly won't be needed.

This will pave the way towards permanent peace in J&K as well - and numbers can finally start to be reduced, with resources being reallocated to the bigger threat in the East.

 

[Bhurki]

There is highspeed till Xining from which it takes about 24 hours to get into Lhasa today in ordinary train. The CRH trains in China max at close to 300 kph. Implications would be troops can be transferred quickly and in more numbers vs air transport. More than military, it makes easy to "chinesize" Tibet for lack of better word than it is today. So, not good for Tibetans and not good for India either.

Chengdu is WTC HQ, not to forget a massive industrial hub and the largest garrison in the West half of China, and thats why it matters a whole lot more than the line from Xining.

 

[LDev]

You are talking of a theatre when Napoleon from France has reached Russia and German brought the best technology savvy and culturally advanced France on knees in two weeks flat. Germany reached on Don having captured and trampled over half of Europe.. and European country's fought a thousand years of land battles against each other..

They only ventured out having settled land borders after treaty of Westfalia.

Your arguments are weak..

The critical difference is that India's enemy China is really that part of China without Tibet and Xinjiang i.e. the Han homeland of coastal eastern China. Tibet and Xinjiang are disposable fodder for the Han Chinese. And the problem for India relying on land warfare is that the real enemy, the Han Chinese homeland is unreachable by land warfare. Slugging it out in the inhospitable heights of the Himalayas is an exercise in futility, there will never be permanent peace. The objective should be a holding operation there, no more. With the real objective being to attack eastern China, the Han homeland. How can you do that except via the Air Force and the Navy? And for that you need to ramp up investments in the Air Force and Navy to give them the reach and the ability to base themselves closer to the real target of coastal China. Just as China has got Gwadar, India has to negotiate basing rights closer to that target. So for India, an expeditionary force is necessary to settle it's borders, unlike Europe where the reverse is true. Only when the battle reaches the Chinese homeland will they have an incentive to settle land borders with India.

 

[prasadr14]

The critical difference is that India's enemy China is really that part of China without Tibet and Xinjiang i.e. the Han homeland of coastal eastern China. Tibet and Xinjiang are disposable fodder for the Han Chinese. And the problem for India relying on land warfare is that the real enemy, the Han Chinese homeland is unreachable by land warfare. Slugging it out in the inhospitable heights of the Himalayas is an exercise in futility, there will never be permanent peace. The objective should be a holding operation there, no more. With the real objective being to attack eastern China, the Han homeland. How can you do that except via the Air Force and the Navy? And for that you need to ramp up investments in the Air Force and Navy to give them the reach and the ability to base themselves closer to the real target of coastal China. Just as China has got Gwadar, India has to negotiate basing rights closer to that target. So for India, an expeditionary force is necessary to settle it's borders, unlike Europe where the reverse is true. Only when the battle reaches the Chinese homeland will they have an incentive to settle land borders with India.

We dont need to reach Beijing..
All we need to do kill who ever comes near our border.

Low intensity warfare favors us.

 

[Indrajit]

Yes, I read southern hindu kingdom of Krishnadevaraya in Hampi, Karnataka had massive elephant battalion but got drugged by the Deccan sultans and he eventually lost after defeating them many times. Beautiful arts and architecture during his time from what I have seen and read and almost everything destroyed. Perhaps knowledgeable kannadigas or Telugus can correct me.

Krishnadevaraya never lost a battle in his lifetime. Vijaynagar would suffer its catastrophic defeat much later.

 

[maximus777]

Krishnadevaraya never lost a battle in his lifetime. Vijaynagar would suffer its catastrophic defeat much later.

Correct, it happened fairly soon after his time. Once again, it was an experiment with “secular” troops that had catastrophic consequences for one of the finest empires that ruled India. What followed after the defeat at Talikota was pure pillage And guess there were no secular human chains drama back then.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Krishnadevaraya never lost a battle in his lifetime. Vijaynagar would suffer its catastrophic defeat much later.

I meant kingdom of Vijayanagara instead of the kings name. Thanks for correcting but if I remember correctly then deccan sultans feared his elephant battalions and drugged them via traitors and whoever the king finally was defeated.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Chengdu is WTC HQ, not to forget a massive industrial hub and the largest garrison in the West half of China, and thats why it matters a whole lot more than the line from Xining.

Yes you are correct, Chengdu is key city for people going in and out of Lhasa (most fly from there too international and domestic)....Trains from Beijing typically go through Xining though as its more of a straight line. I went to Lhasa more coming from Silk road (Gansu province), so Xining was kind of a last big city on the way to Lhasa. Xining is geographically considered Tibetan plateau and was ruled by Tibetan kings along with parts of current Sichuan province which still has lot of Tibetans.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Yes you are correct, Chengdu is key city for people going in and out of Lhasa (most fly from there too international and domestic)....Trains from Beijing typically go through Xining though as its more of a straight line. I went to Lhasa more coming from Silk road (Gansu province), so Xining was kind of a last big city on the way to Lhasa. Xining is geographically considered Tibetan plateau and was ruled by Tibetan kings along with parts of current Sichuan province which still has lot of Tibetans.

Also I think they connected main city in Xinjiang, Urumqi or something like that to highspeed which goes via Lanzhou.....so they planned it pretty strategically considering main arteries in all directions.

 

[Rohan Naik]

The critical difference is that India's enemy China is really that part of China without Tibet and Xinjiang i.e. the Han homeland of coastal eastern China. Tibet and Xinjiang are disposable fodder for the Han Chinese. And the problem for India relying on land warfare is that the real enemy, the Han Chinese homeland is unreachable by land warfare. Slugging it out in the inhospitable heights of the Himalayas is an exercise in futility, there will never be permanent peace. The objective should be a holding operation there, no more. With the real objective being to attack eastern China, the Han homeland. How can you do that except via the Air Force and the Navy? And for that you need to ramp up investments in the Air Force and Navy to give them the reach and the ability to base themselves closer to the real target of coastal China. Just as China has got Gwadar, India has to negotiate basing rights closer to that target. So for India, an expeditionary force is necessary to settle it's borders, unlike Europe where the reverse is true. Only when the battle reaches the Chinese homeland will they have an incentive to settle land borders with India.

The Han china will be much easier to reach from Japan, Philippines or even Mongolia.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The Han china will be much easier to reach from Japan, Philippines or even Mongolia.

Russia too from Khabarovsk

 

[LDev]

The Han china will be much easier to reach from Japan, Philippines or even Mongolia.

India has signed a Logistics Agreement with Japan for use of bases, naval as well as air. The question is whether their use is permitted in wartime. A defense treaty formalizes the use of such bases during wartime as well as both countries come to each other's help.

I am coming around to the view increasingly that the Chinese threat and the pace at which the Chinese armed forces are growing will require India to enter into some kind of treaty arrangement if it can overcome the historical abhorrence to alliances and treaties. There are reports that J-20 production is planned at 80 units per year and the PLAN is adding 60-70 major ships per year. At this rate in 10 years time if India gets into a war with China and even if the IAF shoots down PLAAF planes in a 3:1 ratio, the IAF will run out of aircraft and the PLAAF will still have hundreds or thousands more. Beyond a certain point, quantity has a quality of it's own.That is the concern why a treaty may be needed.

 

[omaebakabaka]

India has signed a Logistics Agreement with Japan for use of bases, naval as well as air. The question is whether their use is permitted in wartime. A defense treaty formalizes the use of such bases during wartime as well as both countries come to each other's help.

I am coming around to the view increasingly that the Chinese threat and the pace at which the Chinese armed forces are growing will require India to enter into some kind of treaty arrangement if it can overcome the historical abhorrence to alliances and treaties. There are reports that J-20 production is planned at 80 units per year and the PLAN is adding 60-70 major ships per year. At this rate in 10 years time if India gets into a war with China and even if the IAF shoots down PLAAF planes in a 3:1 ratio, the IAF will run out of aircraft and the PLAAF will still have hundreds or thousands more. Beyond a certain point, quantity has a quality of it's own.That is the concern why a treaty may be needed.

Nuclear subs, top class missiles SLBMS and more mobile nuclear missiles greater range to act as detterent. The more developed they are the more they will lose in an instant. Unambiguously stated retaliation when serious conventional power is used. When there is asymmetry, nuclear is a guarantee in some ways.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Here come the goodies

Morocco, Netherlands, India, UAE to buy Longbow Fire Control Radars

Longbow Limited, a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, won a $164.6 million contract to equip foreign Apache helicopters with radar units.

www.google.com

Morocco, Netherlands, India, UAE to buy Longbow Fire Control Radars

 

[Pugilist]

Just saw excerpts of FM Jaishankar’s interview with Arnab.

I like the FM a lot but think his approach to China is a little flawed. This is because:

- he appears to advocate resolving the dispute via dialogue with reference to status quo and the two countries’ 1993 agreement to deploy minimum troops around the border.

- Essentially He says in his business things are resolved by talks.

- Yes he is correct about dialogue and one acknowledges statecraft is a complex and unique craft BUT I don’t think he is not correct in this regard with respect to China.

- his apparent mindset is flawed because China is not a rules based country as it has demonstrated to the world time and time again.

- hence as China has breached the 1993 agreement and all other agreements, India’s starting position should be, these agreements are void. Clean slate. Lets negotiate (see below).

- Jaishankar is a career diplomat who started in the 1970s and cut his teeth in the 80s and 90s - China And the world then was a different beast.

- I think Jaishankar should shift his approach vis a vie China (if that is possible seeing that he is somewhat long in the tooth career wise) to that of some of the more hawkish US diplomats who, especially a few decades ago, used some pretty effective coercive diplomacy to achieve their goals.

- the then US approach appeared to proceed on the basis that diplomacy was NOT an alternative to military force. Rather, the US diplomacy was part of it and rolled into hard US power projections as spearheaded by its military.

- I think the US approach WILL NOT be broadly applicable to India these days BUT I believe it is certainly applicable regarding China because China is unique In the way it is organised internally and hence in the way it conducts its statecraft.

- Essentially, China only understands the language of strength which only the Indian armed forces can project.

- therefore Indian diplomacy for China must evolve into a more coercive form and be rolled into a coercive Indian military force.