India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[omaebakabaka]

Saw some posts recently about the Army actually being expanded in the future. Don't think that's a good idea at all.

Instead I think we should re-orient the Army in terms of its posture, priorities and composition. It needs to be geared towards primarily handling China now - and recruitment from native groups (Tibetans, Ladakh, Arunachal, Assam, Sikkim etc) + Gurkhas should be ramped up.

Hopefully an eventual, permanent resolution to the J&K and Pakistani problems will also enable us to decrease size and change the nature of the Army.

Current size is reasonable, all types of central forces count to less than 1% of countries population. We need a little bit more and from regions you mentioned.

 

[Lancer]

Current size is reasonable, all types of central forces count to less than 1% of countries population. We need a little bit more and from regions you mentioned.

I think we could do with less. Tech force multipliers are key, as is an eventual solution to J&K insurgency + Pak.

Eventually the emphasis should be on a powerful Air Force + Navy, with a smaller-sized but more sharp and technically advanced Army. A smaller size Army would also allow us to ensure better equipment/facilities for each man + lessen the load of pensions etc after retirement (some people are quite concerned with OROP re: budget)

 

[Bhadra]

Let me take you a bit off the topic...

India time of Independence declaration at 1200 night, Abhijit Muhurta and the day was decided by three Brahmins astrologically - Pundit Hardoe Joshi, Pundit Rajendra Prasad and Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan. It was actually synchronised with the birth chart of Nehru... with the aim of perpetuating Nehru and his dynasty rule over India..

But in doing so, five planets got placed in the third house - house of valour, neighbourhood, conflicts, borders, communications travels ., roads etc... dangers and courage...

India borders as per that chart will always remain volatile and in trouble and Indian Army will always remain on tenterhooks..

 

[omaebakabaka]

I think we could do with less. Tech force multipliers are key, as is an eventual solution to J&K insurgency + Pak.

Eventually the emphasis should be on a powerful Air Force + Navy, with a smaller-sized but more sharp and technically advanced Army. A smaller size Army would also allow us to ensure better equipment/facilities for each man + lessen the load of pensions etc after retirement (some people are quite concerned with OROP re: budget)

Kinds of threats we have internal ("secular patriots") and neighbors with massive populations....no tech is going to replace those threats. Length and terrain of borders is humoungous and varied and it takes years to train a soldier. Our numbers pale in comparison to US/Russia/China which are tech advanced (as percent of their pop). There is a reason for that. Our economy size now and future can easily support current size and increase in future. If domestic defence industry develops then budget will see a drop naturally.

 

[Sehwag213]

So black top is not ours?

At this point there is no difference between normal media and OSINTs

 

[Bhadra]

I think we could do with less. Tech force multipliers are key, as is an eventual solution to J&K insurgency + Pak.

Eventually the emphasis should be on a powerful Air Force + Navy, with a smaller-sized but more sharp and technically advanced Army. A smaller size Army would also allow us to ensure better equipment/facilities for each man + lessen the load of pensions etc after retirement (some people are quite concerned with OROP re: budget)

Give me secure land borders and I will disband the Army by 2/3..
Which country in the world has such a long unsettled land border and such hostile neighbours in the world ...

If aunty had balls I would call her aunta.

 

[DownWithCCP]

At this point there is no difference between normal media and OSINTs

View attachment 58061

the whole black top thing is complicated, many veterans have come out claiming that it is under our possession but Nitin Gokhale and Vishnu Som(?) claim quite the contrary

 

[Lancer]

Kinds of threats we have internal ("secular patriots") and neighbors with massive populations....no tech is going to replace those threats. Length and terrain of borders is humoungous and it takes years to train a soldier. Our numbers pale in comparison to US/Russia/China which are tech advanced. There is a reason for that.

Our model for this should be Israel - they're showing how to deal with nothing but enemies on all 4 sides (and within) without having massive numbers.

US/Russia are seriously expeditionary forces (I do think India could consider its own version of the "Marines" some day - though it's not a priority); and China is an expansionist country making enemies of every country anywhere close to its neighborhood.

Central Armed Police Forces with a higher standard of training and leadership - maybe ex military - can take care of our internal situation. Especially once augmented w/ tech like electronic surveillance and drones etc.

 

[Sehwag213]

the whole black top thing is complicated, many veterans have come out claiming that it is under our possession but Nitin Gokhale and Vishnu Som(?) claim quite the contrary

I think we should stop discussing Blacktop . This is like PLA Galwan casualties. Nobody has the clear picture except IA and people at the top.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Our model for this should be Israel - they're showing how to deal with nothing but enemies on all 4 sides (and within) without having massive numbers.

US/Russia are seriously expeditionary forces (I do think India could consider its own version of the "Marines" some day - though it's not a priority); and China is an expansionist country making enemies of every country anywhere close to its neighborhood.

Central Armed Police Forces with a higher standard of training and leadership - maybe ex military - can take care of our internal situation. Especially once augmented w/ tech like electronic surveillance and drones etc.

We have been around over 5000 years and seen ups and downs, lets wait for Israel few hundred years to see where they land. They exist primarily because Uncle Sam has their back so far. Size and population matters, its totally an invalid comparison. I agree with you about Army becoming hitech but quantity is totally necessary. I think Indian army now is the most battle hardened formal army in the world. Our SFF are second to none too....all the mountain battalions they are raising after kargil and CI/CT training is starting to pay off.

 

[Bhadra]

the whole black top thing is complicated, many veterans have come out claiming that it is under our possession but Nitin Gokhale and Vishnu Som(?) claim quite the contrary

Maybe it is changing hands every six hours like Raja and Rani posts..

 

[omaebakabaka]

We have been around over 5000 years and seen ups and downs, lets wait for Israel few hundred years to see where they land. They exist primarily because Uncle Sam has their back so far. Size and population matters, its totally an invalid comparison. I agree with you about Army becoming hitech but quantity is totally necessary. I think Indian army now is the most battle hardened formal army in the world. Our SFF are second to none too....all the mountain battalions they are raising after kargil and CI/CT training is starting to pay off.

Folks don't shoot me on 5000 years...lets say time immemorial.

 

[Darth Malgus]

At this point there is no difference between normal media and OSINTs

View attachment 58061

Shows why Govt. sometimes does not want to make things Public.

 

[Lancer]

Give me secure land borders and I will disband the Army by 2/3..
Which country in the world has such a long unsettled land border and such hostile neighbours in the world ...

If aunty had balls I would call her aunta.

Cut the sarcastic, condescending BS; Bhadra.

Anyways - if you read my comment before jumping onto me - you'd see that I am a strong proponent of using conventional and sub-conventional methods to settle the PoJK (and by extension J&K) issue + the Pakistan issue on a permanent basis.

Or would you like to spend the next 70 yrs watching coffins go back to villages of men who got picked off by an errant bullet from some drugged up Punjabi teenagers coming from families of 10 (paid some scant compensation) so we could hold onto the territorial status quo in J&K? And of course that man who died, was probably using an inferior AK to the terrorist, and likely died because the BPJ and proper helmet hadn't yet reached him, and of course his relatives will get to fight lengthy battles w/ the MOD over receiving the benefits they're entitled to.

 

[Lancer]

We have been around over 5000 years and seen ups and downs, lets wait for Israel few hundred years to see where they land. They exist primarily because Uncle Sam has their back so far. Size and population matters, its totally an invalid comparison.

None of this really disproves my core point - it is possible to prioritize tech centrism and force multipliers over inducting more physical bodies (which strains the budget and further impacts how much you can invest in each individual).

I would rather have a smaller Army where every guy has a solid rifle, good helmet, good BPJ, good boots, NVG's when necessary, a personalized battlefield device/computer (or at least the team leader has one and can communicate w/ his men who have earpieces). And they're well taken care of from start to finish (look at the amenities Chinese troops have right now) + no screwing them over once they're done serving - like MOD fighting widows or disabled soldiers over benefits.

I prefer this over just recruiting guys and giving them subpar loadouts so they can be thrown towards objectives with disregard.

 

[omaebakabaka]

None of this really disproves my core point - it is possible to prioritize tech centrism and force multipliers over inducting more physical bodies (which strains the budget and further impacts how much you can invest in each individual).

I would rather have a smaller Army where every guy has a solid rifle, good helmet, good BPJ, good boots, NVG's when necessary, a personalized battlefield device/computer (or at least the team leader has one and can communicate w/ his men who have earpieces). And they're well taken care of from start to finish (look at the amenities Chinese troops have right now) + no screwing them over once they're done serving - like MOD fighting widows or disabled soldiers over benefits.

I prefer this over just recruiting guys and giving them subpar loadouts so they can be thrown towards objectives with disregard.

Tech always comes with counter measures from the opposing side. Europe went that route post cold war and are in a pathetic state now if they really have to fight a war on the ground. All they can do is blow up from air which achieves nothing.

Your idea is efficient but mass is mass.

 

[Lancer]

Tech always comes with counter measures from the opposing side. Europe went that route post cold war and are in a pathetic state now if they really have to fight a war on the ground. All they can do is blow up from air which achieves nothing.

Actually, NATO's biggest mistake - if anything - was trying to maintain some massive Army for an imaginary pitched battle/mass Russian invasion.

They were caught woefully unprepared for Russia's (basic) tech-savvy and sub-conventional tactics in Ukraine/Crimea.

In one battle, a particularly tough Ukrainian commander was keeping the Russians held back. So the Russians sent his mother a false message through hacking that he'd been injured in battle. She called him to check on him - Russians found his location - boom, airstrike.

 

[Bhadra]

Cut the sarcastic, condescending BS; Bhadra.

Anyways - if you read my comment before jumping onto me - you'd see that I am a strong proponent of using conventional and sub-conventional methods to settle the PoJK (and by extension J&K) issue + the Pakistan issue on a permanent basis.

Or would you like to spend the next 70 yrs watching coffins go back to villages of men who got picked off by an errant bullet from some drugged up Punjabi teenagers coming from families of 10 (paid some scant compensation) so we could hold onto the territorial status quo in J&K? And of course that man who died, was probably using an inferior AK to the terrorist, and likely died because the BPJ and proper helmet hadn't yet reached him, and of course his relatives will get to fight lengthy battles w/ the MOD over receiving the benefits they're entitled to.

No one goes out hunting when his house is on fire... No country has ventured out on seas and in the air when their land borders are under threat except to save those frontiers... give me an example .. China has to cut out its sea voyages because they needed to consolidate their land borders..

Coffins are not a modern phenomenon... India has been witness coffins and piles of heads at home for three thousands of years,, it is better to get coffins from the border rather than some jehadi coming and pilling up corpses of our wives and children,.. Freedom and nationhood does not come so cheap...

 

[omaebakabaka]

Actually, NATO's biggest mistake - if anything - was trying to maintain some massive Army for an imaginary pitched battle/mass Russian invasion.

They were caught woefully unprepared for Russia's (basic) tech-savvy and sub-conventional tactics in Ukraine/Crimea.

In one battle, a particularly tough Ukrainian commander was keeping the Russians held back. So the Russians sent his mother a false message through hacking that he'd been injured in battle. She called him to check on him - Russians found his location - boom, airstrike.

What you are saying indicates to more of Nato countries failing to execute anything to a decent conclusion whether it is Ukraine or Afghanistan or Syria or Libya. They are rot inside out. Russia rebuilt itself in a way....US has to in the coming years rebuilt to new threats too.

 

[Lancer]

No one goes out hunting when his house is on fire... No country has ventured out on seas and in the air when their land borders are under threat except to save those frontiers... give me an example .. China has to cut out its sea voyages because they needed to consolidate their land borders..

Coffins are not a modern phenomenon... India has been witness coffins and piles of heads at home for three thousands of years,, it is better to get coffins from the border rather than some jehadi coming and pilling up corpses of our wives and children,.. Freedom and nationhood does not come so cheap...

Same old excuses.

You would rather cling to the status quo you know than try to actually find a superior and permanent resolution to the situation.

With this type of mindset - we will be fighting the same land battles and getting the same coffins for another three thousand years.