India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[garg_bharat]

There is a simple explanation for Indian diplomacy to take this route, there can’t be an alliance between unequal powers. Bigger power can and will gobble up an smaller unprepared power.

Until India achieves some sort of parity, this stand is likely to continue in foreseeable future.

Me personally, I don’t think Indian institutions are matured enough to handle the pressures of such a alliance. clue: up until recently two CBI directors were fighting publicly with each other in a turf war. institutional integrity is absent at the moment in India at the highest levels.

obviously this is an nuanced topic, so there would be a lot of contradictions with any argument.

I think there is a simpler explanation - and that is Indian bureaucracy has grown with certain thinking and mindset.

The constant in Indian politics is not the politician itself but bureaucracy. The political parties do not have long term vision of our neighborhood or India itself. So the policy is driven by a middle-of-the road pedestrian thinking of no alliance.

At a time when China calls Pakistan iron-brother; and is hell bent on using almost all of India's neighbors against India; a thoughtless policy from our policy makers to look away from alliances.

USSR would have lost the war against Germany without American help. Our brown masters do not read history and think they are too smart.

 

[prasadr14]

If we knew, we wouldn't call them deep state.


But the theory is, there are people and interest groups who control workings of the government, no matter which government may be in power and ultimately decide the most crucial policies of the country. One somewhat visible example would be that before Trump, both Democrats and Republicans had same attitude towards China and business with China.

In Indian context it's a bit more transparent. If Indian deep state exists, it's hell bent on not going into military confrontation with China. That's why you see same sort of surrender of land/patrol opportunities/access by both Congress govt and current govt despite a very nationalist and national security related bluster by the current GoI. I'm not saying Indian deep state exists, I'm saying if it did, this would be one of things they did

Shiv Aroor to deep State ->

 

[vayuu1]

I have one question for dfiians, Bhai itna hyper ya itna khush kyu Ho jate hai, remember one thing panic is the biggest enemy of human,bhai,thoda middle ground bhi rakho,i believe govt is better equipped to deal with this issue make no mistake, these are tough times not just for India, but world itself and that includes China,toh just wait and watch,hyper honay say bhi kuch nhi hoga.

 

[vayuu1]

You guys by panicking are actually playing in hands of Chinese and pakis.

 

[vayuu1]

That is why I said ki alliance with Japan,australia,sk,taiwan,indonesia,phillipines,vietnam is absolutely necessary, more so than USA,an anti China alliance with them gives us a advantage considering Chinese will have to be ready for multiple fronts, you won't have to anger Russia, these countries have industrial capability to make rapid progress in defence, most importantly one country can't take China down but with multiple fronts they will always will be under pressure,united front is the biggest strength and enemies worst nightmare.

 

[another_armchair]

1. India must emerge as a weapons provider to SE Asian countries who have a beef with China.

2. Its been a little over 2 months since the first clashes broke out between Indian and Chinese troops. Yes, this happened way before the fateful 'clash' at Galwan.

3. A lot of folks are getting seriously pissed with MEA's statement on non alignment. Alignment means we are aligned with a Third Party's world view and have to toe "THEIR" line, and our strategic, economic interests may not necessarily be aligned with their short/long term goals.

4. The US has been sneaky at best. The only sincere effort was made when Trump started a trade war with China in full public view but the sneaky bastard was quietly negotiating a trade deal in private with Xi. The madarjaat is an old hat at double games and his talk must translate into action. Let us see the Americans lose 20 soldiers in a direct contact with PLA/PLAN and see how they react?

5. We did not put our visible boots on the ground in Afghanistan. We were selfish in committing troops for reasons best known to the wise men and I totally support that. We provided them plenty of intel though. The US and its allies did their bit and kept us out of Af-Pak-Talli talks ignoring our 'interests'.

6. EU has enormous dependence on China. They can indulge in incest and bestiality while singing paeans of the Chinese.

7. As for China, one thing is absolutely clear that most anti-China policy is being driven by PMO and his close confidantes. It will take a miracle for the Chinese to be back in the good books of Modi again.

We are on our own. It is our strategic and economic interests and we need to pursue it.

What is obvious? We are taking a defensive stance and are hoping China doesn't do anything foolish that triggers an armed conflict. The military level talks take place to ensure some semblance of peace, have 'truant' officers shifted from the scene of action and maintain status quo.

What would be our objective? Aksai Chin? Freeing Tibet? Where do we stand w.r.t resources? Money is available but can we have 400-500 single and twin fighter, combat jets delivered via express delivery in three weeks or three months?
No.

We are woefully inadequately armed thanks to our LOOK WEST(Pakistan) policy that has been driven by the mandarins in South Block.

Can expect Modi's beard to keep growing till he resembles Gandalf. Then we might see him emerge over the Karakoram and Himalayas one day and scorch the Chinese and Jihadi blight forever.

Three years at least, unless the Chinese force our hand.

Unless things move really fast in SCS and our borders, doubt we will see any lead flying.

 

[cereal killer]

I went through Shiv Aroor's write up on Depsang while many members were building up hype on Shiv Aroor opening some "Simsim" - Khul Ja Simsim.

He also tried to build some hype but finally, those who were expecting something must be experiencing - Ice water on a hot pan.

No intrusion, no Chinese camps, no occupation, No PP10 to 13 blockades, No trijunction No blockage. No Raki Nala No Jeevan Nala.

Chinese have been coming to Trig Heights whenever they get bore and feel like venturing out from their nearby River Camp ..

There ha been to talks of DBO or Depsang in five Corps Commanders meetings. It is only the doubting toms who are doubting without any evidence. No D-tis no Plane Lab no other imagery...

Still, Chines have occupied Depsand and DFI has made extensive plans to retake it... !!!

Chinese War preparations and offensive plans are going to be put in cold storage / A small military conflict will take place in 2024 only...

For the time being General Winter is the Con..

What's special about 2024? Indian elections. If immediate action is about to happen then Chinese would like it to be near US elections. Chinese war preparations have started in 2017 itself after Doklam. They were angry & vying for revenge. For now I believe current leadership is hoping that Chinese may withdraw from all pressure points this winter.
About the Aroor article he clearly mentioned Chinese are in more numbers in Depsang than ever before & stopping Indian patrols. If hostilities break out they'll definately like to make a dash to DBO on short notice or a two pronged attack via Karakoram pass. Modi cares about 2024 but Xi Jinping doesn't give two hoots about it.

 

[afako]

Amit Shah tests positive for Chinese Virus.

 

[doreamon]

I see the word "deep state" being thrown around in this thread quite often could anyone explain who or what exactly make up the deep state?

think tanks , influential bureaucrats , journalists ( remember rajat sharma's role in negotiation with srilanka ?) , capitalists , agencies, top levels officers in military ... These are part of permanent system away frm day to day politics and people's opinion who influence policies at a greater level . There are theories that these people being organised in some countries . For deep state to exist it does nt have to be a formal association .. sometimes even deep state does nt knw abt its own existence ...

 

[Pash]

Amit Shah tests positive for Chinese Virus.

Sad
I hope it is false news

Wish him good health

 

[Cheran]

Sad
I hope it is false news

Wish him good health

No this is true unfortunately, he himself has tweeted.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Amit Shah tests positive for Chinese Virus.

Nigga is 55 years and has Health conditions.

 

[Knowitall]

So no military action on cards by either India or China?

Why would china want military action anymore.

 

[mist_consecutive]

People who think Shiv Aroor released his originally postponed article don't realize his situation. People choose to live normally over trying to be revolutionary at the cost of life-long suffering any day.

His current article is watered down and maybe completely missing original information.

 

[Synergy]

No the govt is nothing doing what it can do. What it can do is that it can give the Chinese a bloody nose in Ladakh. If history has shown one thing is that if the Chinese suffer reverses they are much more willing to negotiate. The Galwan incident though spontaneous should have been followed up with proactive action in other sectors.

Giving the excuse that we were not ready Isn’t going to cut it. There will always be some shortcomings. Our army as a fighting force has the advantage as they are battle hardened . We could have wrested the initiative if the go ahead had been given.

Right now it seems that Modi and his supporters are more interested in protecting his image than in taking on the Chinese. Have said this before, support him or not, win or loose , the whole country will support the PM if he decides to take decisive action. But unfortunately that seems a far cry.

Right now the Chinese have us in a bind. Having achieved their objectives they know they can sit back because they know we won’t retaliate. We on the other hand have to pour time and resources to maintain a huge forward deployment.

firstly, criticism is appreciated but not ranting.
secondly, we've not done yet. so your assertions are void as these are based on "we are done".

next, as govt is not communicating with us, that doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. what they are doing and why, only time can tell.

it's not the matter of Modi. our PM, DM, Army chief, Gen Joshi all are saying one thing and that is, we will maintain status quo ante be it peacefully or by any other mean. will you like to believe that or not?

sorry if I sound a bit harsh.

 

[Synergy]

The official stance of Congress govt has also been that PoK is ours, Aksai is ours (on paper. It was Congress who passed those in parliament back in the day). Does that mean they were going to act on it? No.

Position of govt has always been to restore status quo: of no tensions at LAC. Not status quo ante, which is position before April. There's a difference.

Time and place of its choosing pfft. That's the nature of fait accompli. You go and do stuff, and you gain control by doing so. Not by vowing revenge unspecified time later. Everything the GOI is doing points to more tea buiscuit serving, not taking hard actions.

Even Chinkies moved weapons and armour (more than India) towards Taiwan. They give more "roars like a lion" about taking over Taiwan. You and I both know they aren't going to actually invade Taiwan. So, no. All the deployment by GoI at LAC doesn't convince me of eventual action.

There's waiting for time, and there's absolving China by saying "koi Nahi ghussa". There's breakdown of diplomatic relations, and there's constant chai biscuit. There's strong statements, and there's MEA of India statements. Everything screams towards GoI accepting status quo, and not doing anything about it being some economic measures.

So yes, Modi has no intention to act militarily.

you are wrong in the notion "koi nahi ghussa". he said "there nobody entered, no posts have been taken" actually means there nobody was able to enter. it was solely on Galwan incident that anti Modi lobby tried to mix with all along LAC.

next, position of govt is always to restore "status quo ante". everywhere every responsible person said "status quo ante". not sure how you missed that.

 

[prasadr14]

you are wrong in the notion "koi nahi ghussa". he said "there nobody entered, no posts have been taken" actually means there nobody was able to enter. it was solely on Galwan incident that anti Modi lobby tried to mix with all along LAC.

next, position of govt is always to restore "status quo ante". everywhere every responsible person said "status quo ante". not sure how you missed that.

It's a wilful miss,
else, their illogical theories would not work.

 

[tsunami]

CKMKB

 

[cereal killer]

CKMKB

almost a year before "PoK & Aksai Chin- Jaan de denge is ke liye: Amit Shah"
Now he is suffering from Chinese virus himself.
Xi Jinping's biological surgical strike

 

[Synergy]

Those acquisitions seem a lot only because the previous congress government's defence minister AK Antony was buying practically nothing for almost a decade for fear of getting embroiled in some corruption scandal.

As far as money is concerned Modi could divert some money towards defence acquisitions rather than use it to buy politicians to topple various state governments couldn't he....after all it does seem very power hungry to be busy toppling state governments while coronavirus epidemic is raging throughout the country .

are you sure, govt money was used to buy politician?
can you give us a hint, what's the rate of Mr Scindia who belongs to a royal family? point to note, he has enough money to buy a large chunk of BJP if they are in the market.

MP govt died it's natural death. Raj govt would also follow the suit and then Maha govt. as it's not a political thread, not expanding it anymore. if you like a political discussion, I'm ready to do that in a political thread.

criticism is appreciated but not baseless allegations. sorry...