India-China 2020 Border conflict

[IndianSpiderman]

So Elon's a white monkey now? What a fall. LOL

 

[Raaakisazih]

I wouldn’t say obsolete but a generation or two behind the west. Their base has always been to develop off of 1960s/70s Soviet tech. Russians have not really collaborated with them in any latest Gen R&D like they do with us. So they probably had to develop everything to catch up.
I am pretty sure it is next to impossible to catch up with the west on every single futuristic tech. That is their aim but they are a long way off from it.
I don’t think Chinese tanks can compete with the Merkava or M1A1 Abrams. These tanks have actually seen action and deficiencies would have been plugged from real field data. No amount of simulations can give you quality of data like those from live war action. So, my conclusion is that Chinese tanks must be behind as well. Again they don’t have access to advanced automotive engine technology- if they did, they will be manufacturing Ferraris and Lamborghini type fast cars that can compete in international races. How many Chinese fast cars do you see in formula 1 races? The answer is zero. This means the engines in tanks that Chinese field would not be as good as the western engines.
We simply see no evidence of use of advanced Chinese technology in any global projects, events, research etc. This alone says they are far away from latest Gen tech in a number of critical areas. My bet is that they will actually fall behind as cooperation doors get shut. Wolf warrior diplomacy, HK national security law, South China Sea transgression, killing our soldiers, trying to enslave Australians, threatening to invade Taiwan, wreaking the Wuhan virus on the world, using consulates to steal IP - everything bad that they could do they have done. Now they are on their own. Let’s see what they can come up with.
‘Meanwhile we are part of MTCR (China is not), which allows us to cooperate in advanced weaponry areas. That is the difference.

They certainly have made enemies and that will come to bite them sooner or later

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[THESIS THORON]

obviously funded by china, We should also fund opp in srilanka for protesting against china. but we are not doing this

 

[fire starter]

Chinese junk.

 

[Raaakisazih]

[/QUOTE
Raw has a presence in maldives they should start lobbying we destroyed mss in maldives before this we need to do it again

 

[Suhaldev]

China building 100 new missile silos in Western desert

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/china-nuclear-missile-silos/2021/06/30/0fa8debc-d9c2-11eb-bb9e-70fda8c37057_story.html

 

[not so dravidian]

y'll nibbirars, @fire starter @THESIS THORON @ezsasa @FalconSlayers @Marliii @Automatic Kalashnikov and all others see who i couldn't quote, plz see the video from 6:40 to 12:50 ( try to see the whole video if u can), this guy explains why booden wasn't able to do anything 'cause Hunter Booden sex tape is held by chene, and DIA was holding the chinese defector without reveling ZIA, FBI, NSA because they were compromised.

nibbiars, must see!!
lolz! seems like Trump was right!


PKS recommended this video

 

[lixun]

I wouldn’t say obsolete but a generation or two behind the west. Their base has always been to develop off of 1960s/70s Soviet tech. Russians have not really collaborated with them in any latest Gen R&D like they do with us. So they probably had to develop everything to catch up.
I am pretty sure it is next to impossible to catch up with the west on every single futuristic tech. That is their aim but they are a long way off from it.
I don’t think Chinese tanks can compete with the Merkava or M1A1 Abrams. These tanks have actually seen action and deficiencies would have been plugged from real field data. No amount of simulations can give you quality of data like those from live war action. So, my conclusion is that Chinese tanks must be behind as well. Again they don’t have access to advanced automotive engine technology- if they did, they will be manufacturing Ferraris and Lamborghini type fast cars that can compete in international races. How many Chinese fast cars do you see in formula 1 races? The answer is zero. This means the engines in tanks that Chinese field would not be as good as the western engines.
We simply see no evidence of use of advanced Chinese technology in any global projects, events, research etc. This alone says they are far away from latest Gen tech in a number of critical areas. My bet is that they will actually fall behind as cooperation doors get shut. Wolf warrior diplomacy, HK national security law, South China Sea transgression, killing our soldiers, trying to enslave Australians, threatening to invade Taiwan, wreaking the Wuhan virus on the world, using consulates to steal IP - everything bad that they could do they have done. Now they are on their own. Let’s see what they can come up with.
‘Meanwhile we are part of MTCR (China is not), which allows us to cooperate in advanced weaponry areas. That is the difference.

In fact, since the founding of India in 1948, India’s international environment is much better than China’s. For example, mig21, the Soviet Union has 10,000 mistakes in our design drawings. Su27, Russia only gives us final assembly drawings, and wants to turn China into A country like India that can only assemble airplanes. After 1989, China’s chances of acquiring technology from the West have become minimal. The Chinese rely on their perseverance and talent to build the current Chinese army. India can get Britain, the United States, and the Soviet Union. , France, advanced technology, but today 70% of India’s military equipment depends on imports.

 

[Tang]

In fact, since the founding of India in 1948, India’s international environment is much better than China’s. For example, mig21, the Soviet Union has 10,000 mistakes in our design drawings. Su27, Russia only gives us final assembly drawings, and wants to turn China into A country like India that can only assemble airplanes. After 1989, China’s chances of acquiring technology from the West have become minimal. The Chinese rely on their perseverance and talent to build the current Chinese army. India can get Britain, the United States, and the Soviet Union. , France, advanced technology, but today 70% of India’s military equipment depends on imports.

No India does not depend 70% on imports.
Please prove that, otherwise don't talk.
Give me hard facts that in recent years India has imported 70% of its military equipment.

Further China also has only Su27 derivates,
Where you need to depend on Russia for sub systems.
While India has been making Su30MKI from raw material stage for quite some time.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

In fact, since the founding of India in 1948, India’s international environment is much better than China’s. For example, mig21, the Soviet Union has 10,000 mistakes in our design drawings. Su27, Russia only gives us final assembly drawings, and wants to turn China into A country like India that can only assemble airplanes. After 1989, China’s chances of acquiring technology from the West have become minimal. The Chinese rely on their perseverance and talent to build the current Chinese army. India can get Britain, the United States, and the Soviet Union. , France, advanced technology, but today 70% of India’s military equipment depends on imports.

But our imports are secure - Russia, France, Israel collaborations we have are top notch. They even accelerate deliveries during war time. If countries around the world though that importing weapons or collaborations with others are a weakness, everyone will be developing their own weapons systems in isolation. That is not the case. The CCP model is bound to fail or lag behind other countries by generations. The carriers are a good example. The PLAN is not even able to develop a gas turbines based carrier. They run on 60s steam turbines. The more modern nuclear powered carriers is operated only by the US and France - and you can see the PLAN struggling to even get a design off the drawing board.
A great example is Brahmos and Barack missile joint development between India and Russia and India & Israel respectively. PLA has nothing close to these technologies.
‘Brahmos especially is a great success - everything done right. A lot of R&D, high quality versatile missiles useful in several engagement theaters, mutual benefit (Russians for the first time are able to mate a supersonic A2S missile on their Sukhois - they did not even have this idea or money for this R&D), step wise development into higher and higher technology - getting close to hypersonic now, sustainable talent development - hundreds of new avionics engineers with practical experience are now available to India/Russia etc. You can just see why Brahmos is the #1 supersonic versatile missile system in the world.
International cooperation and fair R&D are vital to ultra modern technology development that is reliable, sustainable, war worthy. So are international quality certifications of labs, end products etc. You can see that in India there are quality international defense and aerospace companies having engineering and R&D facilities. They employ thousands of Indian engineers, who all gain highly advanced engineering knowledge right here in India. These people then go out and build their own highly sophisticated weapons startups. This public-private entrepreneurial environment with access to world class technologies is why India will always have the lead on China in several weapons development areas.
The Chinese MIC miserably fails in all such areas and indigenous weapons development programs of Chinese companies are highly suspect.
Chinese thinking that india being dependent on weapons imports as a serious weakness, is such a big miscalculation and completely devoid of ground realities, that they would hope they never get into any advanced warfare with India.
Chinese must keep in mind that the US is dependent on collaboration and imports, and they have successfully fought wars. Today critical subsystems of several US platforms are made in India. And that relationship is only exploding. Does the PLA think that the US is insecure because of this?
The CCP has sold this dream to naive Chinese peasants that China can do everything itself and therefore we can take on the world. If the naive Chinese peasants just woke up and found out how far China is behind several nations in key weapons technology, and futile overestimation of internal strengths , they will probably hang Xi and his gang on lamp posts in Tiananmen Square.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

China building 100 new missile silos in Western desert

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/china-nuclear-missile-silos/2021/06/30/0fa8debc-d9c2-11eb-bb9e-70fda8c37057_story.html

This is such an old way of war thinking (Russia and the US are actually trying to decrease missile silos) that it clearly shows that China is insecure about its war fighting capabilities. They are going back to the Soviet model of overwhelming icbm missile production to keep the west quiet. A big giveaway that Chinese airforce, navy, army - all suffer from serious technology handicaps. And that they are in no position to invade Taiwan. In any case, even if they take over Taiwan what are they going to get? The US would have long relocated all semiconductor IP and fabs to the US or other countries. Most of the highly qualified Taiwanese talent would leave for other countries. And China would be stuck with land and a bunch buildings that Chinese peasants won’t be able to afford. So, is PLA going to fight a debilitating war just to acquire Taiwanese real estate?

 

[lixun]

This remains to be seen. Stolen, reverse engineering can only give first generation technology. It cannot get them the latest or futuristic tech. For instance the river they sent to Mars is first generation tech - 3 or 4 generations behind NASA rovers. Same with their carriers, j series jets, WS10 engine etc. You can build quickly first Gen tech by stealing, hir8ng talent, reverse engineering but without the foundational expertise that comes from repeated trials and errors to get to a particular technology, they cannot field latest Gen technology. Even their ICBMs have the same issue - 1960s tech that are no match for our Agni series tech.
All tech they are catching up to - bullet trains, space launch, carriers, jets etc - are all 1960s/1970s tech. Let me know when they can build a Brahmos type missile that only came after years of joint R&D with the Russians. They have no one to collaborate with, and doing it all alone. And now it is going to get even harder as all countries crack down on tech cooperation with China. Look at how Huawei 5G plans and access to chips technology have gone down immensely after bans.
Their scientific ecosystem and R&D will only degrade as they get shut out of international programs. They cannot do everything on their own. They don’t have the money for such R&D. Even the US has a lot of joint R&D programs with other countries which is a major reason the US fields advanced tech in all areas. China will not be able to catch up with zero collab with others. They will be left behind as others collaborate to get ahead.
‘The Chinese will always have quantities but their tech will always be a generation or two behind.

Let’s talk about the Mars rover itself, which is not a key project of China’s aerospace. At that time, it was the CZ5 launch vehicle that had to undergo a test and needed a counterweight, so the China Mars project won a launch opportunity.

 

[lixun]

This remains to be seen. Stolen, reverse engineering can only give first generation technology. It cannot get them the latest or futuristic tech. For instance the river they sent to Mars is first generation tech - 3 or 4 generations behind NASA rovers. Same with their carriers, j series jets, WS10 engine etc. You can build quickly first Gen tech by stealing, hir8ng talent, reverse engineering but without the foundational expertise that comes from repeated trials and errors to get to a particular technology, they cannot field latest Gen technology. Even their ICBMs have the same issue - 1960s tech that are no match for our Agni series tech.
All tech they are catching up to - bullet trains, space launch, carriers, jets etc - are all 1960s/1970s tech. Let me know when they can build a Brahmos type missile that only came after years of joint R&D with the Russians. They have no one to collaborate with, and doing it all alone. And now it is going to get even harder as all countries crack down on tech cooperation with China. Look at how Huawei 5G plans and access to chips technology have gone down immensely after bans.
Their scientific ecosystem and R&D will only degrade as they get shut out of international programs. They cannot do everything on their own. They don’t have the money for such R&D. Even the US has a lot of joint R&D programs with other countries which is a major reason the US fields advanced tech in all areas. China will not be able to catch up with zero collab with others. They will be left behind as others collaborate to get ahead.
‘The Chinese will always have quantities but their tech will always be a generation or two behind.

Second, go to Google UGT-25000, QC280, and see how Chinese gas turbines are. Although they are not as good as the United States and the United Kingdom, they are at least better than P15B.

 

[lixun]

This remains to be seen. Stolen, reverse engineering can only give first generation technology. It cannot get them the latest or futuristic tech. For instance the river they sent to Mars is first generation tech - 3 or 4 generations behind NASA rovers. Same with their carriers, j series jets, WS10 engine etc. You can build quickly first Gen tech by stealing, hir8ng talent, reverse engineering but without the foundational expertise that comes from repeated trials and errors to get to a particular technology, they cannot field latest Gen technology. Even their ICBMs have the same issue - 1960s tech that are no match for our Agni series tech.
All tech they are catching up to - bullet trains, space launch, carriers, jets etc - are all 1960s/1970s tech. Let me know when they can build a Brahmos type missile that only came after years of joint R&D with the Russians. They have no one to collaborate with, and doing it all alone. And now it is going to get even harder as all countries crack down on tech cooperation with China. Look at how Huawei 5G plans and access to chips technology have gone down immensely after bans.
Their scientific ecosystem and R&D will only degrade as they get shut out of international programs. They cannot do everything on their own. They don’t have the money for such R&D. Even the US has a lot of joint R&D programs with other countries which is a major reason the US fields advanced tech in all areas. China will not be able to catch up with zero collab with others. They will be left behind as others collaborate to get ahead.
‘The Chinese will always have quantities but their tech will always be a generation or two behind.

Something like BrahMos.
Its prototype onyx p800 is a small tactical bomb used by the Soviet Union to replace p270 sandflies. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union, it could not continue to complete the development work without financial support. Finally, the development was completed under Indian capital injection, and then Russia was based on India’s backwardness. The basic industrial capabilities have successfully designed such a model for India to reduce the technical index requirements and the difficulty of production.

The typical application of tactical bombs in the Red Navy is to track the assault group’s 956 destroyers at a distance of 30-90km. The entire shipboard radar binding fire control data does not need to be relayed. In a word, this thing is not designed. A cargo pursuing range, emphasizing the long range is really a bad brain.
This is the P700 heavy-duty anti-ship missile that also uses head air intake. It can be clearly seen that the design of the head air intake cannot arrange a radar with a sufficient diameter, and the arrangement of the air intake and combustion chamber also makes the missile volume and mass Soaring. Another disadvantage is that the missile is limited by the air intake efficiency. It is difficult to maneuver at a high angle of attack, which severely limits the maneuverability of the missile. Of course, your small radar can't do high maneuverability. After an S, The target will not be found, so it will be very dumb during the penetration phase.

In contrast, the YJ 12 is designed to optimize a lot for high maneuverability. This four-inlet arrangement ensures that there are two inlets for smooth air intake in any situation, and it uses a fighter-style multi-inlet. The wave system rectangular inlet, the total pressure recovery coefficient is much better than that of the p800.
TheYJ 12 has achieved 3ma+300km with a mass of 1.5 tons, which is only half the weight of Brown Moss...

 

[lixun]

This is such an old way of war thinking (Russia and the US are actually trying to decrease missile silos) that it clearly shows that China is insecure about its war fighting capabilities. They are going back to the Soviet model of overwhelming icbm missile production to keep the west quiet. A big giveaway that Chinese airforce, navy, army - all suffer from serious technology handicaps. And that they are in no position to invade Taiwan. In any case, even if they take over Taiwan what are they going to get? The US would have long relocated all semiconductor IP and fabs to the US or other countries. Most of the highly qualified Taiwanese talent would leave for other countries. And China would be stuck with land and a bunch buildings that Chinese peasants won’t be able to afford. So, is PLA going to fight a debilitating war just to acquire Taiwanese real estate?

Why is Barak 8 and EL/M-2248 the simplest air defense ship configuration in the world"
How did the Israelis position this weapon? In 2012-13, the first two ships of Israel’s Sal 5 class-INS Eilat and INS Lahav were selected as the first Sal 5 warships to upgrade EL/M-2248. The modified form first appeared in 2014. One A frigate with a standard row of 1065 tons and a full row of 1,275 tons

India chose to use such a simple amplified model of the air defense system on its main air defense ship. First of all, this is an S-band radar the size of a fighter fire control radar. The front area is about one-tenth that of similar products in China and the United States. The MMIC used is the most backward type of SI-bjt. If it is really in service, then congratulations to India for having the world's worst air defense ship (of course, most countries do not have air defense ships). In addition, let’s talk about missiles. Even the Barak 8er’s kill range is only 70-90km/2ma (no maneuverable targets for mid-air level flight). The original model without boosters can intercept typical fighter targets at 30km, if the speed is 2ma. ..... Most of the fighter jets can directly start the afterburner and accelerate in a straight line. As a reference, the Barak 8 has a length of about 4.5 meters, a diameter of 0.25 meters, and a launch weight of about 275 kilograms. As a typical point air defense weapon, the US ESSM also has a bullet diameter of 10 inches and a launch weight of 300 kilograms. The warhead is lighter than that of the Barak 8, and the damage range for high-maneuverable targets such as fighter jets is about 30km-so do you believe that the Empire is so much worse than Israel? Why does the Barak 8 use a 60 kg warhead-a full half heavier than the essm? It's not that I have no confidence in the accuracy of the guidance and can only increase the charge.

 

[mokoman]

Among, Ladakh sector, Uttarakhand/central sector, sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh, where do we have the best infrastructure and where is it the worst?
Basically I want to know the infrastructure ranking in the 4 sectors.

i am no expert , i only know bits and peices .

IMHO problem area seems to be Arunachal Pradesh.

There are areas along the LAC in AP with no proper roads

check my post here to see road condition to town of Vijaynagar that is near LAC

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/india-china-2020-border-conflict.82416/post-1945299

Some of the forward posts in AP near LAC can only be helicopter maintainted ,


good news is we are going to be building roads connecting all remote areas in AP as well as new road that runs parallel to LAC.

total budget is i think around 10 billion dollars.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

i am no expert , i only know bits and peices .

IMHO problem area seems to be Arunachal Pradesh.

There are areas along the LAC in AP with no proper roads

check my post here to see road condition to town of Vijaynagar that is near LAC

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/india-china-2020-border-conflict.82416/post-1945299

Some of the forward posts in AP near LAC can only be helicopter maintainted ,


good news is we are going to be building roads connecting all remote areas in AP as well as new road that runs parallel to LAC.

total budget is i think around 10 billion dollars.

How is the infrastructure in the central and sikkim sector?

 

[mokoman]

How is the infrastructure in the central and sikkim sector?

dont know much , IMHO Sikkim , Himachal , Uttrakand are not problem areas

Sikkim isnt disputed , chinese even claimed they have no problem with border there . but there are still clashes.

 

[Tang]

Something like BrahMos.
Its prototype onyx p800 is a small tactical bomb used by the Soviet Union to replace p270 sandflies. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union, it could not continue to complete the development work without financial support. Finally, the development was completed under Indian capital injection, and then Russia was based on India’s backwardness. The basic industrial capabilities have successfully designed such a model for India to reduce the technical index requirements and the difficulty of production.
View attachment 97759
The typical application of tactical bombs in the Red Navy is to track the assault group’s 956 destroyers at a distance of 30-90km. The entire shipboard radar binding fire control data does not need to be relayed. In a word, this thing is not designed. A cargo pursuing range, emphasizing the long range is really a bad brain.
This is the P700 heavy-duty anti-ship missile that also uses head air intake. It can be clearly seen that the design of the head air intake cannot arrange a radar with a sufficient diameter, and the arrangement of the air intake and combustion chamber also makes the missile volume and mass Soaring. Another disadvantage is that the missile is limited by the air intake efficiency. It is difficult to maneuver at a high angle of attack, which severely limits the maneuverability of the missile. Of course, your small radar can't do high maneuverability. After an S, The target will not be found, so it will be very dumb during the penetration phase.
View attachment 97760
In contrast, the YJ 12 is designed to optimize a lot for high maneuverability. This four-inlet arrangement ensures that there are two inlets for smooth air intake in any situation, and it uses a fighter-style multi-inlet. The wave system rectangular inlet, the total pressure recovery coefficient is much better than that of the p800.
TheYJ 12 has achieved 3ma+300km with a mass of 1.5 tons, which is only half the weight of Brown Moss...

YJ12 is subsonic, so whatever bull-sh*t you have written is invalid.


Best Regards