India-China 2020 Border conflict

[saneel2014]

4, 9 OR 14? EVEN CHINA ‘ISN’T SURE’ HOW MANY PLA SOLDIERS DIED IN GALWAN VALLEY
MONDAY, MARCH 01, 2021 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS.

View attachment 80180


New Delhi: How many soldiers of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) were killed in the face-off with the Indian Army at Galwan Valley on 15 June last year? Was it four? Or nine? Or 14?


It seems even the PLA is not really sure.

During various levels of talks with India, Chinese officials have, at different points of time, unofficially, given contradictory figures for their Galwan clash casualties, sources in the defence and security establishment said.

The figures — shared informally, especially in breaktime conversations during dialogue sessions — varied from 5-14, even as China has publicly accepted only four deaths so far.

Contrary to the perception that the Indian side was outnumbered by the PLA in the Galwan Valley, it was the Chinese that faced the brunt and they had to call in reinforcements, which came at night, the sources said.

The entire clash, they added, took place in the Y-junction area, which is within Indian territory, and it was the Chinese that intruded.

While the Indian establishment does not have a concrete figure on Chinese fatalities, their estimate is that the PLA lost between 25 and 40 personnel, including at least one officer.

The Galwan Valley clash marked the first time in 45 years that soldiers died in a clash on the India-China border. Twenty men of the Indian Army, including a Colonel, died in the face-off.

Since India and China followed a no-firing protocol, in line with a 1996 agreement, the Chinese employed crude weapons, including rods studded with nails, in the clash. In the wake of the Galwan Valley episode, Indian soldiers were allowed to open fire at the LAC in self-defence.

Different Estimates From Chinese

Last September, it was learnt, the Chinese told the Indian side that five PLA soldiers, including a commanding officer, had died in the clash. At the time, a top South Block official had said, “If the Chinese are saying five, we can easily double it if not triple it.”

However, the latest revelations suggest the Chinese gave different numbers at different times, with one estimate claiming 14 PLA deaths.

According to the sources, both sides try to source more information from each other during conversations, especially during breaks.

“The Chinese have never officially spoken about casualty figures (during bilateral talks), except once, saying during a higher-level talk that they had also lost a Colonel-rank officer,” a source in the know said.

Another source said, “During the talks, there are various sub teams that are formed for carrying forward the negotiations. During conversations, one Chinese official once said they suffered five casualties. Another time, another claimed nine, and the figure went up till 14 over a period of time.”

It isn’t clear whether the multiple figures given at various points of time was part of a Chinese strategy to confuse the Indian side, the sources said.

“The fact is that the Chinese suffered casualties. It is only now, after several months, that they have accepted the death of four soldiers. Remember that they have honoured four soldiers posthumously and not given out total casualty figures,” a third source said.

The source was referring to the fact that China honoured five soldiers — four of them posthumously — on 19 February, eight months after the clash.

‘Galwan Clash Carried On Through The Night’

Eight months after the clash, a clearer picture appears to be emerging about the circumstances of the face-off.

The Galwan Valley clash, sources said, began at dusk on 15 June and went on through the night. It was only the next morning that the clash stopped and both sides pulled back and picked up their injured, the sources added.

During debriefing sessions with those involved in the clash, it was found that they all only knew and remembered what happened in their immediate vicinity, and not the overall picture, the sources said.

Some soldiers offered vivid accounts of the fight that they had and how they were able to inflict casualties on the Chinese side.

“It was dark and there was total confusion. There was intense hand-to-hand combat taking place through the darkness. The Indian soldiers had fibre sticks with them and the Chinese brought in some crude weapons. In many cases, the weapons were snatched and used on the Chinese,” one of the sources cited above said.

The source added that despite grave provocation by the Chinese, and intense fighting, no soldier opened fire even though they had weapons on them.

“Opening of fire is only done on orders. There was intense physical fighting happening and no one opened fire as the orders were not given. Moreover, in such close combat, opening of fire was also impossible, for Indians and the Chinese, as it could have resulted in friendly-fire casualties on both sides,” the source said.

Source>>

Don't u feel odd that in one report we claim that we gave back 16 'dead' bodies but later the same PLA says that only 5 casualties happened(the print report)

 

[Ayushraj]

History is not a certain indicator of the future. Smart people keep an ear to the ground.

I am fed of listening china is unpredictable. China is highly uncertain. China fear no one.

If this is the case china must prove this.
China has not fought war since 1979 .

 

[Moroboshi]

Notice New York Times calls Lt. Gen D.S. Hooda a cyberexpert


“I think the signaling is being done” by China to indicate “that we can and we have the capability to do this in times of a crisis,” said retired Lt. Gen. D.S. Hooda, a cyberexpert.

Hey now. He can open internet explorer and log in to twitter. That's all it takes to be a cyber expert apparently.

 

[prasadr14]

That Holes like Hooda and co reached the positions they reached speaks volumes of the rot in our system.

 

[Suhaldev]

That Holes like Hooda and co reached the positions they reached speaks volumes of the rot in our system.

Don't simply blame them, international press has habit to abridge the version to make it more sensational or anti india. Pkus, Nyt is not neutral woke journalists ensured firing if their editor for balanced new push.

 

[prasadr14]

Don't simply blame them, international press has habit to abridge the version to make it more sensational or anti india. Pkus, Nyt is not neutral woke journalists ensured firing if their editor for balanced new push.

Sorry to say but Hooda and Shukla and co have no leg to stand.
Their antiques are so plain to see.

It's painful to think these people once served in our military.

 

[Poseidon]

If Lt. gen Hooda is not a cyber expert as per some self styled experts here, why was he head of a Defence ministry panel which among others also looked into cyber warfare operational issues. The panel submitted report to a National Security Advisory Board:

Gen Hooda submitted his report to the NSAB recently and held discussions with the members of the NSAB including noted China expert Lt Gen SL Narasimhan about 10 days ago.

The panel was set up by the government based on the recommendation of Defence Secretary Sanjay Mitra about five months ago and utilise Lt Gen Hooda's expertise for carrying out a study on the restructuring of the armed forces.

Sources said the panel has recommended that the Army should set up these specialised information warfare units on an experimental basis and evolve them as per the output received from their operations.

Lt Gen Hooda has also suggested restructuring of the cyber warfare operations.

Hooda panel recommends creation of specialised information warfare units, restructuring of military intelligence

The panel headed by former Northern Army Commander Lieutenant General (retired) DS Hooda has recommended that the Army and the Air Force should sort out their issues such as the ownership of attack helicopter and utilisation of air defence assets which are common for both the services in a big...

www.business-standard.com

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

@5:45 onwards for a minute or so

 

[FalconSlayers]

Notice New York Times calls Lt. Gen D.S. Hooda a cyberexpert


“I think the signaling is being done” by China to indicate “that we can and we have the capability to do this in times of a crisis,” said retired Lt. Gen. D.S. Hooda, a cyberexpert.

I am afraid they’ll call Ajai Shoookla an OSINT Expert in near future.

 

[sorcerer]

this guy is known for hacking repeatedly into pakistan and publicizing sensitive info, he says these articles speaking about an entire grid are an eyewash.

As we said...
the article made in the media at this time about some chinese script kiddies may have a purpose.

 

[Moroboshi]

If Lt. gen Hooda is not a cyber expert as per some self styled experts here, why was he head of a Defence ministry panel which among others also looked into cyber warfare operational issues. The panel submitted report to a National Security Advisory Board:

Hooda panel recommends creation of specialised information warfare units, restructuring of military intelligence

The panel headed by former Northern Army Commander Lieutenant General (retired) DS Hooda has recommended that the Army and the Air Force should sort out their issues such as the ownership of attack helicopter and utilisation of air defence assets which are common for both the services in a big...

www.business-standard.com

You don't need to be "cyber expert" to recommend any of that shit. Just having a working brain is enough.

"Cyber expert" implies technical expertise, an advanced degree and/or experience in the field. Does he have any of that?

 

[ezsasa]

As we said...
the article made in the media at this time about some chinese script kiddies may have a purpose.

What else can we expect, they had high hopes that fascist modi would surrender to 10 feet PLA chaps who parked their asses on Tibet border. obviously there will be butthurt after looking at the visuals of how fast the mighty PLA packed up and ran away.

The butthurt is gonna be expressed one way or the other.

Anyways this is a great opportunity to increase funding on cyber security R&D and implementation. I have no idea on what is the skillset level of cyber security expert within India.

for ex: we donno if the expertise of our cyber security experts is basically on usage of foreign softwares and not actually building our own softwares.

 

[samsaptaka]

I fail to understand as to what the thinking/mindset among our decision makers were when they cleared CCP power equipments. It is given that these thugs will have it littered with malware. You do not need that much brainpower to decode that.

Power infrastructure is being hardened and de-sinosized on a war-footing.

Contradictory views, though I feel the one from @Cheran is very unsettling. Our babus don't know jackshit about cyber security, because power infra usually falls under state govt and the state govt babus are the worst ! If @tarunraju you can provide any link/source/circumstantial evidence to your re-assuring claim, I will be much at peace.

 

[FalconSlayers]

I am fed of listening china is unpredictable. China is highly uncertain. China fear no one.

If this is the case china must prove this.
China has not fought war since 1979 .

China is the most certain, will show agression to face save and will backstab when you retreat, remember 1962? They backstabbed when we were retreating and they attacked us, the same they did yesterday.

 

[Ayushraj]

China is the most certain, will show agression to face save and will backstab when you retreat, remember 1962? They backstabbed when we were retreating and they attacked us, the same they did yesterday.

China didn't backstabbed us when we are retreating.
China backstabbed us when we treated them as friend and howling everywhere and on everyforum hindi chini bhai bhai.
China treated Nehru like a dog who used to take up chinas issue on every forum like of 1chinas issue, taiwan crises, chinas recognition on world forum ,veto power,etc.
China used Nehru to bark for them in world forums but China realised india as an potential threat and taught india a lesson in 1962 war.

 

[BlackViking]

After new SM rules, he has to justify why he reported such news when govt is saying otherwise. These guys has 2-3 months to fake news. I wish law should be retrospective.

He has already started his RR.

 

[rone]

this guy is known for hacking repeatedly into pakistan and publicizing sensitive info, he says these articles speaking about an entire grid are an eyewash.

This is what I call pure BS, because plugx not a apt malware anymore like ghost rat aka red wolf it became commercial remote admin tool , also all Chinese rats have very high degrees of detection on any kind of av, also the new version of plugx rat called melody rat, yes you can use same rat for multiple attack you just need to host them in different servers or you have to enable multi port support, victim system privilege doesn't matter all new rats comes with UAC exploits or after initial foothold you can use tools like Credharvstor or mimikatz to do privilege excitation

 

[ezsasa]

If we add the possibility that CCP did the cyber warfare in Maharashtra grid and we add the rest of the attacks over the past year, we get:

- Military warfare on Tibet border
- Biological warfare with wuhan Virus
- Internal security warfare with farmer protests, as evident from presence of CPI flags
- Cyber warfare on a state grid
- Information warfare using their bots as well as foreign SM companies


CCP has covered the full spectrum warfare against India’s national security during the last one year. This makes CCP, India’s enemy no.1 . Any attack from Pakistan should be considered an extension of CCP warfare on India.

 

[hit&run]

I dont trust MH goverment run by SS, INC and NCP thugs.

NYT article is full of innuendo, alarmist with no first source reference. Wont trust anything published on that rag either.

Cyber attacks have been happening all the time. Both sides do it. Some times decoy systems are created and made to look vulnerable to invite attacks.

 

[hit&run]

If we add the possibility that CCP did the cyber warfare in Maharashtra grid and we add the rest of the attacks over the past year, we get:

- Military warfare on Tibet border
- Biological warfare with wuhan Virus
- Internal security warfare with farmer protests, as evident from presence of CPI flags
- Cyber warfare on a state grid
- Information warfare using their bots as well as foreign SM companies


CCP has covered the full spectrum warfare against India’s national security during the last one year. This makes CCP, India’s enemy no.1 . Any attack from Pakistan should be considered an extension of CCP warfare on India.

Border skirmishes have been happening for many years now.

Pandemic first spread to other nations then came to India.

Cyber attacks from China have been happening and have been thwarted successfully. During CW games the attacks were in thousands.

Information warfare needs more discussion. There are internal fault lines and existing eco system which are willingly compromising our national interests. Current government’s pussyfooting and sheer indifference to it is the main reason that every agitation is snowballing into bigger disruption.