India-China 2020 Border conflict

LDev

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Meanwhile, folks. They are buying these for Himalayan troop carrying and logistics. Covert buying, Russians are double arming. Expected, but covertly... bad move Russia.


The Chinese will use these helicopters for airborne assault on the heights occupied by the Indian Army. The SH version can carry 26 fully armed troops as well as provide supporting fire. The article I have linked talks via #rajfortyseven talks about the helicopter base at Lhasa being expanded with shelters for 24 helicopters ready and 24 more under construction. Separately there are reports of all new helipads being constructed all across the LAC from Ladakh to Arunachal. It looks like the Chinese strategy will be to use helicopters to insert troops into difficult terrain held by the IA.

#China #PLA #PLAGF aviation expanding #Lhasa heliport&LH brigade. 24 #Mi17V7,hangars have brown camo. Addl 24 larger hangars coming up, airstrip expanded to 1km, 15 buildings for living Accns provide for 2 addl tpt regts lift capability 2 inf bns. More:

Accelerated Lhasa heliport development poses a new threat to India
 

cereal killer

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I wonder what are the new heights that ANI is talking about. Pangong is more or less sealed. Something along Chumar or perhaps even Karakoram?
 

FalconZero

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I wonder what are the new heights that ANI is talking about. Pangong is more or less sealed. Something along Chumar or perhaps even Karakoram?
Old news about peaks at Southern bank within our side of LAC i.e. Gurung, Regzang, Reqin La, Mokhpari and Magar hills + some heights at finger 4.
OT but Gurung is just 1.38km away from Black Top.
 
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You are blowing that logistics trumpet much beyond what it is.

With very good air, rail and road network there is no logistics problem in Tibet. Chinese have built an excellent network of road s in the border areas and all their forward posts and operational areas are well connected. Indian elites in the meanwhile were busy filling swiss bank and sovereign territory banks with scam money.

Now the Chinese can use entire Pakistan to ramp up their logistics. Rawalpindi and Islamabad are near to Ladakh via CPEC and G-219 and a very large military force can be maintained in Aksai China from Pakistan.

Four IN ships deployed on Chinese shores can not prevent what China is doing in Ladakh. It is of some consequences if it is a joint effort by quad.
we have no formal alliance with any quad nation.
We run to Russia for emergency purchase when arming Chinese is their priority. Pakistan has a clear alliance with China . We have none. Diplomacy will not save India and even economic sanctions against China have reached their full impact. This is a mess Indian policy has created and must fix alone no one coming to do anything more than token gestures. Ladakh never even brought up on UN by India since Modi has officially said Chinese are not in indian territory then their is no problem.
 

LDev

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All good countries develop institutions that continuously develop and delve into the subject matter in the form of academics, research, participation, consultations, and advice. They interact with experts, military, Foreign policymakers, intelligence experts, domestic and outside stakeholders and come out with policy options.

In India, there is no expertise outside the bureaucracy. Bureacrcy can never be an objective and neutral, logic-based expert agency because bureacrcy by nature has a stake in one policy option. One does not have to study Max Waber to understand that Bureacrcy develops its own interest in certain policy options.

For example, ITBP as a policy option for Border Management has a strong IPS stake as it is a vehicle for their promotion avenues. They whatsoever have no interest in contributing innovating towards better border management. They are bound to find a solution to border management issues in the expansion of ITBP because that is their expansion.

Hence an outside agency. committee/ expert group is required for policy issues. It is precisely the weakness of our institutions like, USI, IDSA, CPR, Viveka Nad Foundation, or a host of others. Their biggest weakness being compromising their independence for survival and ideological biases they cling to. JNU is is an example... created to do research they have become experts in anti-nationalism.

If we want freedom from cranky, nepotist and dynasty politicians and a third rate corrupt and malignant bureacrcy, we need strong institutions in our society as a source of information, debate and generating options. Policy generations must have their own methodology of trip wiring. There is none in India...
There are retired Army Generals who I think have a good strategic grasp of what is important e.g. the interview of Nitin Gokhale with Lt Gen Harish Thukral (Retd) and Lt Gen PJS Pannu (Retd) which is linked below conducted as part of his USI series. I was pleasantly surprised by their knowledge of history as to how the situation in Ladakh has evolved as well as their comments on China. People like this should be part of an institutional framework which can develop and guide Indian long term strategic thinking which will provide continuity beyond the elected Government of the day:

 

Knowitall

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There are retired Army Generals who I think have a good strategic grasp of what is important e.g. the interview of Nitin Gokhale with Lt Gen Harish Thukral (Retd) and Lt Gen PJS Pannu (Retd) which is linked below conducted as part of his USI series. I was pleasantly surprised by their knowledge of history as to how the situation in Ladakh has evolved as well as their comments on China. People like this should be part of an institutional framework which can develop and guide Indian long term strategic thinking which will provide continuity beyond the elected Government of the day:

You can trust the generals but don't trust the snake sitting in between them.

Feku gokhale has still not ended his antics and continues to take everyone on a ride.

He again posted a shit map and made wild claims about IA positions.

Even d-atis a osnit account posts better maps and explanation than him.
 

omaebakabaka

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Imagine if the Chinese and Pakistanis were great friends of India. It would put far less strain on India. In comparison to the strain we are already undergoing economically because of these two, the current strain is an incremental one.

Even if Chinese learn mountain warfare, they have a logistics nightmare of having a single road from their heartland upto Xinjiang. Also digging in would be perceived as a weakness because they made the attacking move and then would be making the defensive move.

US is currently spending $50 billion on Afghanistan every year. One way forward would be for the US to give India $5 billion to $10 billion to handle Afghanistan and then spend the remaining on the Chinese front. With this money, India could afford to raise 2-3 divisions for Afghanistan and squeeze Pakistan from both ends.
The chinese have highspeed railway into Xinjiang via Gansu.
 

LDev

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One can also look at the problem posed by you the other way. It can be established that route of domination of China and an option to nullify the Indo Pecefic strategy lies in Ladakh. Sea route is not the only way of Chinese expansionism and extension of empire but BRI is which is a land approach too. Ladakh is a threat to Chinese BRI and China is trying to secure its expansionism through BRI by tackling Ladakh specially securing CPEC.

Do not see India from the glass of those countries which have no land borders - UK, USA and Austrelia or Newzealand . China has ventured into sea having adequately secured their land borders.

For India where does the greater threat lies to its sovereignty and security - on land or on seas? Give me settled and secure land borders and I will fervently write for disbanding Indian Army and give all to Navy...
Do not be a frog in the well...
The sooner India gets over the notion that it is fighting a "border war" with China the better. India is in a war with China, all of China from it's east coast to it's India border. India cannot secure it's land border with China, purely using the IA, unless the IA has the capacity to invade China at the land border and drive 2500 km all the way to Beijing!! How did Japan subjugate China in their war of 1937-1945? By Japanese troops occupying Beijing, Shanghai and the then Chinese capital of Nanjing. That is plainly impossible today for the IA. So India needs the IA to confront the PLA at the border and it also needs the IN to confront China on it's eastern seaboard.
 

omaebakabaka

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Ya'll Nibbiars I am posting this again. Plus 40 Bahadurs are been recommissioned.
AircraftOriginTypeVariantIn serviceNotes
Combat Aircraft
Mikoyan MiG-21Soviet UnionInterceptorBison113All of these are Bison variety.
SEPECAT JaguarUnited KingdomGround attackIM/IS118
Mikoyan MiG-29RussiaMultiroleMiG-29UPG6521 on order
Dassault Mirage 2000FranceMultirole2000 H/I45
Sukhoi Su-30RussiaMultiroleSu-30MKI261272 delivered. 12 on order
HAL TejasIndiaMultiroleMk.11723 on order
Dassault RafaleFranceMultiroleEH/DH531 on order.
Source please? Back to Pathankot or closer to China?
 

Abhay Rajput 02

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we have no formal alliance with any quad nation.
We run to Russia for emergency purchase when arming Chinese is their priority. Pakistan has a clear alliance with China . We have none. Diplomacy will not save India and even economic sanctions against China have reached their full impact. This is a mess Indian policy has created and must fix alone no one coming to do anything more than token gestures. Ladakh never even brought up on UN by India since Modi has officially said Chinese are not in indian territory then their is no problem.
Sir ji just few problems:
1- we have nearly 68% of military hardware from russia. In every project they are involved, be it cruise missile , nuclear reactors for submarine, etc. We can't afford that. Russians are still not selling any major military equipment to pakistan and thats good enough for us.
2- your assumption that usa is willing to help us out of goodwill. They want there share of pie how much big nobody knows. But there is one thing for sure Pakistan is still there because of usa.
3- your assumption that americans need us which is not true at all. Just look at the map of SCS, they can fuc* the shit out of chinese . They can pretty much blockade most of chinese trade. Read island chain strategy. They dont need us, they had already alliances with many countries in the region be it japan, SK , Philippines , australia.. most importantly, technology wise they are decades ahead. In the next 10 years they will have operational DEW on ships.
 

omaebakabaka

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The force ratio required to take Siachen is 1:50 (according to the Pakis). We have a brigade there, so if anyone wants Siachen they will have to spare many divisions (which is lots of cannon fodder)
We need to be like NK, rely on nuclear threat and ready to use it. China has more to lose than us. We can't let them play this land mafia type war. This does not make sense....build up nuclear retaliation and delivery small scale and large scale to make China think twice.
 
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Sir ji just few problems:
1- we have nearly 68% of military hardware from russia. In every project they are involved, be it cruise missile , nuclear reactors for submarine, etc. We can't afford that. Russians are still not selling any major military equipment to pakistan and thats good enough for us.
2- your assumption that usa is willing to help us out of goodwill. They want there share of pie how much big nobody knows. But there is one thing for sure Pakistan is still there because of usa.
3- your assumption that americans need us which is not true at all. Just look at the map of SCS, they can fuc* the shit out of chinese . They can pretty much blockade most of chinese trade. Read island chain strategy. They dont need us, they had already alliances with many countries in the region be it japan, SK , Philippines , australia.. most importantly, technology wise they are decades ahead. In the next 10 years they will have operational DEW on ships.
i am saying exactly the opposite . Nobody is helping anyone but we have shut our diplomatic options by saying Chinese have not intruded. Then why the conflict on the border??
 

Abhay Rajput 02

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i am saying exactly the opposite . Nobody is helping anyone but we have shut our diplomatic options by saying Chinese have not intruded. Then why the conflict on the border??
Well technically Chinese haven't really intruded in LAC. There is no point where they are on our side of LAC. They are at the grey zones aka no mans land. It the area where both side patrol , and ofcourse chinese have built road infrastructure in the past few decades and we sit like nothing happened.
our diplomats , babus , politicians have no startegic thinking. We all know very well how things works in india. And nobody is gonna help us. As Americans say- MIGHT IS RIGHT. Besides UN IS A JOKE. They have given powers to P5 nations for a reason. And then they lecture about equality biggest joke.
 

Tridev123

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They don't have to put boots on Siachen, they can bomb our base there or use rocket arty strikes. They have a rocket that can fire from a distance of 175+ km.
I think the Chinese Rocket Artillery threat is over hyped.
The usual norm is that rockets are unguided and missiles are guided.
But we have rockets also getting micro guidance systems to increase accuracy
mimicking guided missiles. Like our Guided Pinaka having Trajectory Correction System.

The Chinese put a lot of faith in MBRL systems and have numerous versions with range even approaching 200 km. They do have more MBRL systems compared to us. But the extra long range rocket artillery need not disturb us too much.

Usually these extra long range MBRL systems come with 8 or 12 tubes meaning that maximum number of rockets launched is 12 units. One casualty of increasing range of rockets is reduced accuracy. The longer the range the more the deviation from the target coordinates. Now after travelling 200km if the rockets land many hundreds of meters apart from each other the objective of raining concentrated firepower on a target is lost. So we don't know how accurate these extra long range rockets are and whether the Chinese have managed to have a low CEP for each rocket.

We have our own Prahaar Ballistic Missile system of 150 km range having 6 tube capability. I believe the range can be increased by reducing the warhead weight. By simply positioning two Prahaar missile batteries side by side we can salvo launch 12 missiles at the same target equalling one Chinese MBRL firing 12 rockets. And all the Prahaar missiles are fully guided with on board guidance systems including GPS and the target coordinates can be fed before launch.

Our old Prithvi missiles go up to 350km with a 500kg warhead. I am sure the long-range Chinese rocket artillery does not have 500kg warheads.

So we do have answers to the extra long range rocket artillery of the PLA.
Also if the Chinese start using hundreds of MBRL we can start using our Air force to target the launchers with stand off munitions.

I am sure this situation has been wargamed and answers kept ready by our Army.
 

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