India-China 2020 Border conflict

ajay7322

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Japan's governing party is renewing its push for its long-cherished goal of revising the country's pacifist Constitution, saying effective anti-coronavirus measures such as lockdowns aren't possible without an emergency clause in the charter providing enforcement and the limiting of private rights.


Japan's governing party is renewing its push for its long-cherished goal of revising the country's pacifist Constitution, saying effective anti-coronavirus measures such as lockdowns aren't possible without an emergency clause in the charter providing enforcement and the limiting of private rights.

The powerful Lower House of parliament, controlled by the governing party, on Tuesday approved revisions to a national referendum law that would lay the groundwork for a possible future vote on a charter revision. Constitutional amendments, however, remain a long shot because the hurdles are extremely high.

The bill, which facilitates voting in a referendum, now goes to the less powerful Upper House for expected approval by mid-June.

The U.S.-drafted Constitution has never been revised since it took effect in 1947 during the U.S. occupation of Japan after its World War II defeat. Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga’s conservative Liberal Democratic Party has long viewed the Constitution as a reminder of Japan's humiliating defeat and made constitutional revision a key party platform.

The party strengthened its efforts for a revision under Suga’s predecessor, Shinzo Abe, known for his nationalistic historical views and his support for a paternalistic society led by the emperor.

Abe proposed changes to the Constitution, which renounces the use of force in settling international disputes, to officially give the country's Self-Defense Force the status of a full-fledged military, though experts say it isn't necessary because the SDF is already accepted internationally as the country’s military.

Critics say the amendments proposed by the governing party reflect its view that Japan should be a “normal nation” with a full military, a stronger government and a society in which individual basic rights can be compromised for the national interest in times of emergency.

Abe failed to achieve the amendments during his eight years in office, even when the governing bloc controlled the two-thirds majority in both houses of parliament needed to propose a revision ahead of a national referendum. The party and its coalition partner lost their supermajority in the upper house in 2019.

The governing party, however, has expanded the role of Japan’s military and campaigned for changes to the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution, citing security threats from North Korea and China’s increasingly assertive territorial claims in regional seas.

Public opinion in recent polls has been divided over revision of Article 9, one of most contentious issues in the amendment debate. Surveys show many Japanese care more about the economy and jobs.

With the government facing strong criticism of its failure to get the coronavirus under control despite repeated declarations of states of emergency, Suga and governing party lawmakers are insisting they cannot enforce more effective, binding measures because of constitutional limitations.

In a message on Constitution Day on May 3, Suga said passage of the revised referendum bill is “a first step” to constitutional change.

Public interest in emergency preparedness is growing, and having constitutional definitions of the roles of the state and the people in a crisis is crucial, Suga said.

Public support for antivirus measures with more teeth has been growing amid fear of the continuing pandemic. Experts and government officials say emergency measures that were toughened earlier this year to allow authorities to issue binding orders restricting business hours are inadequate because measures aimed at the general public remain non-binding.
 

mist_consecutive

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@shade ?? , is that you , did you hack @mist_consecutive 's account ?? :rofl:

Come on man ,

We are pushing ahead with infra work at LAC , work on DBO, that road in galwan valley you mentioned , all been done even with severe covid and an economy thats comming out recession.

:laugh: we managed to push them back in galwan and pangong tso without any blood shed. all the while chanting "peace and tranquility" "peace and tranquility" "peace and tranquility"

i think we will make the chinese slowly understand "peace and tranquility" and make them pullback behind the LAC.
Appreciate the positive outlook. But infra, forward posturing etc. does not excuse losing territory.

To have an idea of why the hot spring area is so important.



Green - Indian roads
Orange- Chinese roads
Light Blue Triangles - Indian positions
Magenta squares - Chinese positions

If the Chinese have reached PP15, they are mere steps away from cutting off the entire North-Western Kungrung river valley, which is a significant size of landmass.

If we just accept their claim line or run away saying sb changa si, we will loose Kungrung valley in next 2-3 years, if not this year (high chances if you ask me).

IMHO Modi is better than his predecessors.

Fighting Kargil war without crossing LOC , releasing that fucker masood azhar . the whole depsang 2013 thing.

:hmm: I think after the abhinandan incident , he is not big fan of taking huge risks , especially with Chinese.
Biding time, with economy in not the best of shapes and also India being totally focused on pandemic, it would obviously seem that avoiding conflict is the best case scenario, but not in this case, the more you avoid the bolder the enemy gets.
Abhinandan incident could have been completely overwritten if we had just attacked Karachi that night and shot down half of their air force. Pakistan would need another 20 years to rebound back and be a threat to us again, or maybe would have been never and just balkanized.

And yes, saving the economy during a pandemic is a valid argument, and that is exactly we cannot fight a full-scale war with China, but short & intense skirmish to punish them punitively to deter any future action.
If we just cower away, China will definitely take advantage to grab more territory, and we will never be able to recover it.
 

mandestiny

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Say anything, new LAC already created by China.

Aish karo apne missiles ke sath.

Bhai modi kitna dekhe ga, uski bhi sehn sakti hai.
 

ezsasa

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And yes, saving the economy during a pandemic is a valid argument, and that is exactly we cannot fight a full-scale war with China, but short & intense skirmish to punish them punitively to deter any future action.
If we just cower away, China will definitely take advantage to grab more territory, and we will never be able to recover it.
Why should Indian Military give PLA practice sessions on battle field experience, wait 5 more years and there will be zero personnel with battle experience except for few of their generals or major generals in PLA. it's already been about 41 years since they went into a proper battle.

Indian army atleast keeps having arty duels with PA and COIN ops with Jihadis.
 

Deadtrap

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Appreciate the positive outlook. But infra, forward posturing etc. does not excuse losing territory.

To have an idea of why the hot spring area is so important.



Green - Indian roads
Orange- Chinese roads
Light Blue Triangles - Indian positions
Magenta squares - Chinese positions

If the Chinese have reached PP15, they are mere steps away from cutting off the entire North-Western Kungrung river valley, which is a significant size of landmass.

If we just accept their claim line or run away saying sb changa si, we will loose Kungrung valley in next 2-3 years, if not this year (high chances if you ask me).




Abhinandan incident could have been completely overwritten if we had just attacked Karachi that night and shot down half of their air force. Pakistan would need another 20 years to rebound back and be a threat to us again, or maybe would have been never and just balkanized.

And yes, saving the economy during a pandemic is a valid argument, and that is exactly we cannot fight a full-scale war with China, but short & intense skirmish to punish them punitively to deter any future action.
If we just cower away, China will definitely take advantage to grab more territory, and we will never be able to recover it.
This is PP 15 and I think at the current moment Chinese are not present here. They withdrew from this place in May-June 2020 itself.

487AA870-661A-4FD5-9E92-F8CEB61DF29A.jpeg
 
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mist_consecutive

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Why should Indian Military give PLA practice sessions on battle field experience, wait 5 more years and there will be zero personnel with battle experience except for few of their generals or major generals in PLA. it's already been about 41 years since they went into a proper battle.

Indian army atleast keeps having arty duels with PA and COIN ops with Jihadis.
We are not unnecessarily going into a shooting war, it will be a calibrated response to protect our territories and deter China.

China doesn't need battle experience if they can just win without fighting.

This is PP 15 and I think at the current moment Chinese are not present here. They withdrew from this place in May-June 2020 itself.

View attachment 89715
Yes, I am confused about the Gogra-region patrol-point notation, many conflicting sources. But area-wise, yes, the Chinese have gone back and are camping 2-3 km behind the border, I drew it way too close.
 

ezsasa

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We are not unnecessarily going into a shooting war, it will be a calibrated response to protect our territories and deter China.

China doesn't need battle experience if they can just win without fighting.
Once any military escalation starts, it's the other side who decides when the escalation should end.

Anyways momentum of previous escalation is lost now, no choice but to wait for next round of escalation by CCP which is not far away.

atleast for next time, GoI hopefully has built/will build enough cash & ammunition reserve for prolonged escalation if necessary.
 

mokoman

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Appreciate the positive outlook. But infra, forward posturing etc. does not excuse losing territory.

To have an idea of why the hot spring area is so important.



Green - Indian roads
Orange- Chinese roads
Light Blue Triangles - Indian positions
Magenta squares - Chinese positions

If the Chinese have reached PP15, they are mere steps away from cutting off the entire North-Western Kungrung river valley, which is a significant size of landmass.

If we just accept their claim line or run away saying sb changa si, we will loose Kungrung valley in next 2-3 years, if not this year (high chances if you ask me).




Abhinandan incident could have been completely overwritten if we had just attacked Karachi that night and shot down half of their air force. Pakistan would need another 20 years to rebound back and be a threat to us again, or maybe would have been never and just balkanized.

And yes, saving the economy during a pandemic is a valid argument, and that is exactly we cannot fight a full-scale war with China, but short & intense skirmish to punish them punitively to deter any future action.
If we just cower away, China will definitely take advantage to grab more territory, and we will never be able to recover it.
PP17A is mislabelled as PP15 , PP15 is one pointed out by @Deadtrap

PP15 is also under PLA control .

PP17A is still a "friction point" , its still part of talks , GOI hasnt let gone of it to the Chinese.

:hmm: if GOI had no intention of removing PLA , they wouldnt be "unofficially" talking about it.

I agree about the importance.

I read somewhere that the chinese setup their border claims lines so that they can control all valleys and important passes.

I think we will remove them by talks itself.
 
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Knowitall

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I remember someone asking about the composition of Chinese armored brigades.



An excellent top notch video. Excellent content in the channel worth subscribing.
 

mokoman

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I don’t see PLA presence at PP15 atleast till Google Earth boundary. They are 2.5 km behind at the valley corner.
I cant either , atleast on shitty free seninel sat images.

but its still listed as a friction point , atleast in last month.

check link below


China continues to have a platoon-level strength each, along with vehicles at two friction points, Patrolling Point 15 (PP15) in Hot Springs, and PP17A near Gogra Post.

However, though China pulled back its troops from PP14, it failed to complete the disengagement from PP15 and PP17A.

At two friction points, Patrolling Point 15 (PP15) in Hot Springs, and PP17A near Gogra Post, China still has a platoon-level strength each, along with vehicles.


like @mist_consecutive said, that building isnt an "administrative office" , it houses about 50 soldiers + vehicles.

Even more funny is that at PP15 according to chinese official map i seen , PLA seems to have crossed even their own claim lines.
 
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sorcerer

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Exclusive: Satellite images capture Chinese recalibrations near Ladakh

As the winter snow melts in the mountains, the Chinese ground forces seem to have recalibrated some of their positions near the Hot Springs and Gogra areas in Ladakh. Analysis of new high-resolution Synthetic-Aperture Radar (SAR) satellite imagery provided to India Today by space firm Capella Space confirms minor adjustments being made by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China.



India Today..so take it with ship loads of salt
 

mokoman

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Exclusive: Satellite images capture Chinese recalibrations near Ladakh

As the winter snow melts in the mountains, the Chinese ground forces seem to have recalibrated some of their positions near the Hot Springs and Gogra areas in Ladakh. Analysis of new high-resolution Synthetic-Aperture Radar (SAR) satellite imagery provided to India Today by space firm Capella Space confirms minor adjustments being made by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China.



India Today..so take it with ship loads of salt
Again , same shit , Indian camp marked as PLA.

 

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