IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

Defcon 1

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I still think Swedish a26 needs to be considered I have been saying this for years.
Going with German not much advantage when pak also has.
We are in this too deep to turn back now. Too much time and money has been invested. Plus recent mishaps have left us with a depleted submarine fleet. Turning back on Scorpene now will be like turning back on LCA. Anyways, this will hopefully be the last order of foreign subs. After scorpene induction, we should become capable of constructing our own SSKs.
 

cobra commando

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Scorpene (Project 75) Submarines Being Equipped for Speical Ops & Network Centric Warfare

The Indian Navy is equipping its six Scorpene (Project 75) subs for special operations and network centric operations. The boats will be networked with the rest of the fleet using Ku and S band SATCOM systems. The boats will feature a Communication Intelligence System with Direction Finding Capability (COMINT/DF) which will enhance situation awareness by displaying the DOA (Direction of Arrival) of the intercepts and other data on MFCCs of Combat System of submarine. The COMINT/DF fitted on the Scorpenes would also uplink DOA data using a S-Band Satellite Communication System (SATCOM) to the Indian Navy's Rukmini GSAT, so as to provide other fleet ships real-time data on communication intercepts. COMINT/DF systems typically feature High Sensitivity and High Probability of Interception (HPOI); the system searches, intercepts, measures, classifies, analyzes, locates and monitors ground, airborne and naval communication transmissions. Such transmissions are characterized by high mobility, short duration, complex signals and frequent changes in signal parameter in the most dense electromagnetic environments. The Scorpene COMINT/DF would provide capability to DF, monitor, intercept, record and analyse communication signals in V/UHF frequency range used for air-to- air and surface-to-air communication. The S-Band SATCOM system typically provide low data rate communication. As reported earlier, Scorpenes would also be equipped with Ku-band SATCOM high data rate communication. The Combat System from Project-75 subs is being supplied by M/s DCNS, France.
Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Scorpene (Project 75) Submarines Being Equipped for Speical Ops & Network Centric Warfare
 

Zebra

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ok cancel the deal.... wat next then? wat abt incomplete subs?
@Pulkit, @Punya Pratap

The French took "one freaking decade" and still MDL is waiting for "critical spares" for the very first sub.

Still people are dying to wait for it, on top of it, if these are not enough, more contracts are waiting to be get sign for the same people who took "one freaking decade".

That is "utter nonsense".

MDL got the hull ready, next what it needs to make it a sub. Concentrate on that.
 
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Pulkit

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the contract must be having a certain clause for this situation ....
Defaulters shud be avoided yes...
I m too annoyed and angry but If we try and teach them a lesson in any way how are we gonna complete our subs do we hve an alternative?

@Pulkit, @Punya Pratap

The French took "one freaking decade" and still MDL is waiting for "critical spares" for the very first sub.

Still people are dying to wait for it, on top of it, if these are not enough, more contracts are waiting to be get sign for the same people who took "one freaking decade".

That is "utter nonsense".

MDL got the hull ready, next what it needs to make it a sub. Concentrate on that.
 
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Punya Pratap

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@Pulkit, @Punya Pratap

The French took "one freaking decade" and still MDL is waiting for "critical spares" for the very first sub.

Still people are dying to wait for it, on top of it, if these are not enough, more contracts are waiting to be get sign for the same people who took "one freaking decade".

That is "utter nonsense".

MDL got the hull ready, next what it needs to make it a sub. Concentrate on that.
Casper the problem with most defense deals is that each OEM/Source nation looks to build upon their business and they would prefer to keep the importing nation on their "To Sell List"

Be it the French or the Russians they always want India to be dependent on them andd for that they employ existing contracts as the strings through which they pull. Russians are exerting teh pull through the MKI contract and that is why you might have read that they dilly dally with sorting out engine flame out and display failure problems. I think the biggest issue is that inspite of complete overhaul and maintenance support clause in MKI contract they have not even posted technical specialists on permanent basis to India.

In case of the Scorpene or any other ToT the fact is that the source nation realises that if they part with all the critical techs and spares then India will become self reliant and the western nations will stand to lose out on the biggest arms market in the world. More so with the navy which has 44 ships on order books and all in domestic ship yards and I m mighty proud to see the IN's progress has been on an upward trajectory since the Leander class.

IN has recently scuttled its plan to acquire two stop gap submarines off the shelf as they have seen the writing on the wall... they know the new Govt. insists upon all major arms to be Built in India.

MDL plus L&T are two likely candidates to take up the P75I project and I will be extremely happy if L&T gets a chance simply because A) Executing a Arihant Class sub is no joke B) Their work culture is a lot different

I expect I have answered your questions to the best of my limited ability! Thanks !!
 
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Zebra

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Defence News - The 'miscellaneous' blunder in India's Rafale deal

Wednesday, September 17, 2014
By : Rediff

....The comparison between the Scorpene purchase and the prospective Rafale acquisition need elaborating.

In October 2005, the UPA signed the Rs 18,798 crore deal for six Scorpene submarines to be built by Mazagaon Dockyard Limited under a transfer of technology from Armaris comprising Direction des Constructions Navales and Thales of France and Spain's Navantia.

After a series of mergers and acquisitions, this consortium emerged as DCNS in 2007 with whom all future dealings have subsequently been conducted.

Problems arose shortly after construction of three Scorpene boats began in 2007-08.

It emerged that the original agreement had mysteriously omitted to include varied critical components essential to the Scorpene's construction including engines, generators, sub-assemblies and raw material like specialised steel.

Accordingly, the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh -- presented a fait accompli as MDL had already begun building the Scorpene's -- was forced in March 2010 into approving an additional Rs 1,900 crore for the newly-created Mazagaon Procurement Materials.

The MPM, as a postscript to the main submarine contract agreed to five years earlier, emerged as vital entity to source the additional apparatus from DCNS to kick-start the stalled Scorpene programme.

The protracted negotiations to purchase this gear -- which raised the overall submarine contract price by some 10 per cent -- lasted almost 24 months and were primarily responsible for delaying the programme by four years to 2016.

This postponement, in turn, has added serious dimension to the Indian Navy's operational woes afflicted by its depleting underwater assets.

But more notably, this lapse in conclusively negotiating the Scorpene deal at one go appears to be one by MoD and naval officials who were either professionally incompetent or deliberately careless or both in determining essential equipment that puzzlingly and in all probability, much to DCNS' delight, emerged later.

At the time of the follow-on agreement with the MPM, defence industry officials had held DCNS responsible for significantly inflating the cost of these supplementary items on the grounds that a large proportion needed procuring from other European suppliers.

Hence, it can be surmised that these 'assorted' items were either skilfully or inadvertently omitted from the Scorpene bid or simply tagged on as 'miscellaneous' only to be negotiated later, once the submarines construction has started leaving the MoD and Navy no alternative but to acquire them.

In what appears to be a rerun of the Scorpene project, around 50-60 'un-priced' items are believed to have been listed as miscellaneous' in Dassault's offer for the Rafale which emerged as L1 or the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender ahead of the Eurofighter.....
 

sgarg

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"The major components omitted from the tender" seems to be the keyword here, as the same method applied to Rafale.
 

arnabmit

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Defence Minister Arun Jaitley near the first under-construction Scorpene submarine at MDL's East Yard, Mumbai.

 

kvj

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Hello all

Interesting discussion. Its really surprising that these submarines thing is of a decade old and still nothing much is done. I read about these scorpene some time back in news papers.

What are those new 6 submarines which I read in yesterdays paper where funds of 50000 crores allotted ?? both are same are different

If the both are different then how many years these will take as with foreign collaboration things are delayed by a decade and if the new once fall into make in India category then how many more years these will take. Finally it looks that we have serious bureaucracy problem in our country.
 

cobra commando

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Indian-built Scorpene to carry critical DRDO system

India's defence establishment will be fully responsible for a DRDO- developed critical propulsion system that will go into the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built under technology transfer at Mazagon Dock, Mumbai, say the original makers of the submarine. The system, called air- independent propulsion (AIP), enhances the underwater endurance of conventional (diesel-electric) submarines. Without it, they are forced to surface to periscope depth to recharge their batteries — a position where they are most susceptible to detection — at more frequent intervals. The French defence shipbuilding major DCNS has put its own second-generation hydrogen fuel cell AIP system on the block. It maintains that the DRDO will be "fully responsible for the process" of the AIP it is developing for fitment on the submarines. Refusing to entertain queries on the performance parameters and safety of the DRDO's phosphoric acid fuel cell AIP, which sources told The Hindu would be ready for trials next February, Philippe Berger, former submariner and submarines operational marketing manager of DCNS, said while the company's first-generation Mesma AIP, powering Pakistan's Agosta 90B submarines, offered a dived endurance of two weeks, its advanced fuel cell AIP enhanced it to three weeks. "Without AIP, Scorpenes can stay underwater for four days," he said. "Our scheme is limited to integrating safely the DRDO-developed AIP plug to the submarine. We are working on designing the hull section in detail for this," Mr. Berger told Indian journalists at the DCNS facility, which houses the "fully tested operational-scale fuel cell AIP." (The correspondent visited France with other Indian journalists at the invite of DCNS)
Indian-built Scorpene to carry critical DRDO system - The Hindu
 

akshay m

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DCNS hopes to expand footprint in India

At the Nantes-Indret Centre of French Shipyard DCNS, where naval propulsion and energy generation systems for conventional and nuclear submarines are developed and tested, four neatly-packed cooling systems are kept for delivery to Mazagon Dock for fitment on the Indian Scorpenes under construction.

Alongside, there's a bigger refrigerant, still being put together, meant for the latest of U.K.'s Astute class of nuclear attack submarines (SSN). Nearby is a completed system for the French Navy's new-generation Barracuda SSNs.

The Indian Scorpenes are on schedule, putting delays behind them, with the first slated for launch of trials in September next, say DCNS officials.

However, while India has closed a contract for delivery of Exocet SM39 missiles for the subs, a decision has been deferred on procuring the Franco-Italian Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes, pending corruption probe against Italian Finmeccanica whose firm WASS manufactures the torpedoes. India may then go with a German torpedo, says a DCNS official.

The second diesel generator for the second Indian Scorpene awaits bench-test at the test-bed in Nantes.

The company's facility at Cherbourg worked on the technology transfer and quality and technical specifications for the Indian Scorpenes.

"It has been a big adventure," says Antoine Sajous, Asia Pacific sales head of DCNS.

While the company has built and is building Scorpenes for Malaysia, Brazil (where it's a part-owner of the domestic Scorpene-building project) and Chile, it took sometime to set up the infrastructure for Scorpene construction at MDL.

"Its east yard has grown four times its size from the time the construction had begun and sports the kind of hangars and specialised equipment we have at Cherbourg. Technology was acquired pretty fast and there's stringent quality standard maintained. It would all go waste if they are to stop with the six subs," he says, suggesting India would do well to go for advanced Scorpenes for its follow-on conventional subs envisaged for construction in India under the Navy's P75-I.

He says the company, which is also bidding for know-how partnership with MDL for modular construction and design support for the proposed P17-A stealth frigates, desires to bolster its partnership with it.

Eric Droz-Bartholet, head of international submarine business, says India could make DCNS a part-owner, a la Brazil, in P75-I construction for ease of technology transfer and building.

"Eventually, MDL could be a global export centre for parts of submarines," he suggests.

The company is also pinning its hopes on bagging the order for construction of landing platform docks (LPDs) in partnership with Pipavav, for which it provided a design based on the Mistral-class of vessels. "We understand that it is before the technical evaluation committee at the moment. Pipavav has ramped up its infrastructure to execute the project," says Jerome Penicaud, bid manager.

The Indian LPD tender stipulates building of two vessels by a yard selected while two would be built by Hindustan shipyard on nomination basis. ABG Shipyard, L&T and Pipavav are in contention for the project.
source the hindu
 

Kranthi

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DCNS hopes to expand footprint in India

source the hindu
First scorpene trials by next september is a great news... hope things go as per schedule..

They are looking for more scorpene orders. But in my opinion, selecting scorpene again for P-75I might not be a wise choice.. This project is going to be our last offshore purchase of submarines.. It is better we select a different design now, so that we can learn a different set of technology other than that of the French, German or Russian. Especially for French, we have their latest technology (whatever they can offer) already learnt through P-75. So the best option is Soryu (should they offer it) or else Amur or Type-216.

I think so because no one is best at everything. That's why teams perform better than individuals, by clubbing the best skills of each individual. Same way, one sub might have better propulsion, the other might have a better hull design and some other might have a better endurance and so on.. We better club all the bests, so that we can have robust designs of our own for the future indigenous projects.. However, ordering more scorpenes is the only way if the navy wants to quickly strengthen its submarine fleet.

And regarding modular construction, MDL has already built up such infrastructure for P-15B and the first ship is already under construction. Now why is it that they again need DCNS help to build another such facility for the P-17A ?

Also does the new LPD tender have a clause for HSL to build two ships ??
 

Lions Of Punjab

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Defence News - First Scorpene sub built in India ready, under test
First Scorpene sub built in India ready, under test

In a significant development in the ongoing Scorpene submarine project at the Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL), the first of the six French vessels has been completely constructed and is now undergoing tests within the yard. As per the time-frame set by the Indian Navy and the shipbuilder, the deliveries should begin by September 2015, with one vessel released to the Navy every subsequent year.

According to an official privy to the development, the vessel has finished all "outfitting" of the protruding masts, antennas and the periscope on the "conning tower" and is undergoing checks for checking their functionality. "The piping, wiring and cabling work inside the boat is also done. We will now test all these by simulating underwater conditions where gases and liquids will be pumped through the pipes to see how everything is performing. The team handling the testing bit is working in full swing on this submarine while another team concerned with the internal work is engaged in the wiring and piping works on the other boats," said the officer. Officials from DCNS of France — the original maker of the Scorpene submarines are also assisting the shipbuilders at MDL.

The Scorpene project, also called Project 75, remains one of the most embarrassingly delayed defence projects ever since it was signed with the French in 2005. With several missed deadlines owing to unforeseen technology and "equipment-related" issues, according to MDL officials, the vessels would still be "insufficient" to meet India's underwater capabilities by the time all of them reach the Indian Navy by 2020.

This is primarily because the first four of the boats would be without the crucial air independent propulsion (AIP), thus qualifying them as regular "diesel-electric" — a system which has been discontinued by most international navies.

An AIP allows a submarine to remain submerged for weeks on end without the need to surface to recharge its batteries or sending up a "snorkelling pipe" which could give away its position.
 
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he-man

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Defence News - First Scorpene sub built in India ready, under test
First Scorpene sub built in India ready, under test

In a significant development in the ongoing Scorpene submarine project at the Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL), the first of the six French vessels has been completely constructed and is now undergoing tests within the yard. As per the time-frame set by the Indian Navy and the shipbuilder, the deliveries should begin by September 2015, with one vessel released to the Navy every subsequent year.

According to an official privy to the development, the vessel has finished all "outfitting" of the protruding masts, antennas and the periscope on the "conning tower" and is undergoing checks for checking their functionality. "The piping, wiring and cabling work inside the boat is also done. We will now test all these by simulating underwater conditions where gases and liquids will be pumped through the pipes to see how everything is performing. The team handling the testing bit is working in full swing on this submarine while another team concerned with the internal work is engaged in the wiring and piping works on the other boats," said the officer. Officials from DCNS of France — the original maker of the Scorpene submarines are also assisting the shipbuilders at MDL.

The Scorpene project, also called Project 75, remains one of the most embarrassingly delayed defence projects ever since it was signed with the French in 2005. With several missed deadlines owing to unforeseen technology and "equipment-related" issues, according to MDL officials, the vessels would still be "insufficient" to meet India's underwater capabilities by the time all of them reach the Indian Navy by 2020.

This is primarily because the first four of the boats would be without the crucial air independent propulsion (AIP), thus qualifying them as regular "diesel-electric" — a system which has been discontinued by most international navies.

An AIP allows a submarine to remain submerged for weeks on end without the need to surface to recharge its batteries or sending up a "snorkelling pipe" which could give away its position.

Thank god.........finally.
der aaye durust aaye.

Project p-75i needs to select upgraded scorpene with mesma/drdo aip to avoid any further delays.

But as usual sanity is not much prevalent in the ministry of defence.
 

sathya

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Scorpene has space for a small reactor which can work as an infinite AIP
 

Bheeshma

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I doubt Scorpene can fit a reactor. It will need to be extended and modified for VLS plugs.
 

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