IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[greek guy]

Argentina will place nuclear reactor in two TR-1700 subs.. Type 209-1700..!
I am sure it can be done the same to Scorpene because Brazil has ordered an "empty" hull to do it without external help..

Germans produce very good weapon-systems but they don't know what marketing is.. and they try to corrupt the government by offering "gifts" so as to win the competition..
If they manage to corrupt your government then they will try to sell you low-quality products to ensure more profit!
Be very careful with them!

Germans also try to make a new torpedo like va-111 shkval.. They call it Barracuda.. Russia offers an export version of Shkval.. maybe you should buy a few samples and try to copy it.. reverse engineering!..

 

[makmohan]

France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP

PARIS, NOV 28: French shipyard DCNS, creators of the Scorpène-class submarine, have offered the Indian Navy two Scorpène submarines off the shelf as a quick stop-gap to stem dwindling force levels, compounded by the recent INS Sindhurakshak tragedy. The company, cleared by the French government to make the offer, has said it can build two Scorpenes and deliver them to coincide with the induction of the first of six Scorpènes being license built at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

I had a chance to speak with executives at DCNS who confirmed that the Scorpène build programme was 'on track' after major hiccups for most of the last few years. A review meeting scheduled for next week will take stock of progress, a monthly affair that involves persons from the French DGA, DCNS and French industry.

DCNS, currently committed through an MoU with DRDO to help facilitate the integration of the latter's in-development air independent propulsion system has expressed anxiety about the absence of an official 'Plan B' in case the DRDO project doesn't deliver a workable AIP module for the final two submarines in the license build. DCNS, which has for long tried to convince the Indian Navy to commit to the French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, it now plans to formally suggest to the Indian Navy that they 'formalise' this Plan-B on paper. The MESMA being proposed, sources at DCNS tell me, will be a second generation system where the steam generator involved will be replaced with fuel cell technology.

Officials at DCNS have also suggested that the DRDO system, being developed by the Naval Materials Research Laboratory in Mumbai, is unlikely to meet timelines given that it will need to be ready (developed fully and then tested in dock, at sea and at depth after integration with the submarine) before 2015 -- a "difficult proposition", according to one official. DRDO officials contest this, and insist that the programme is on track and will meet timelines. DCNS plans to recommend to the Indian Navy that the Plan-B be invoked if the DRDO doesn't meet a specified timeline (beyond which, delays would impact the submarine build itself) on the indigenous AIP. It also plans to suggest that the DRDO AIP then be retrofitted on the first four submarines, if the Indian Navy wants that.

Source : Livefist: France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP (Livefist)

 

[sayareakd]

looks like they dont want future competition from us.

ATV is about to complete sea trials, that means with AIP we can have great sub.

 

[Patriot]

It also plans to suggest that the DRDO AIP then be retrofitted on the first four submarines, if the Indian Navy wants that.

The french AIP should be installed rightaway from the first Scorpene being built, why to wait for the retrofitting later!! DRDO AIP can be installed in the rest of two subs.

DRDO should also start building bit smaller ATV hulls with AIP as propulsion system as the second line subs.

 

[nirranj]

France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP

PARIS, NOV 28: French shipyard DCNS, creators of the Scorpène-class submarine, have offered the Indian Navy two Scorpène submarines off the shelf as a quick stop-gap to stem dwindling force levels, compounded by the recent INS Sindhurakshak tragedy. The company, cleared by the French government to make the offer, has said it can build two Scorpenes and deliver them to coincide with the induction of the first of six Scorpènes being license built at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

I had a chance to speak with executives at DCNS who confirmed that the Scorpène build programme was 'on track' after major hiccups for most of the last few years. A review meeting scheduled for next week will take stock of progress, a monthly affair that involves persons from the French DGA, DCNS and French industry.

DCNS, currently committed through an MoU with DRDO to help facilitate the integration of the latter's in-development air independent propulsion system has expressed anxiety about the absence of an official 'Plan B' in case the DRDO project doesn't deliver a workable AIP module for the final two submarines in the license build. DCNS, which has for long tried to convince the Indian Navy to commit to the French MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) AIP system, it now plans to formally suggest to the Indian Navy that they 'formalise' this Plan-B on paper. The MESMA being proposed, sources at DCNS tell me, will be a second generation system where the steam generator involved will be replaced with fuel cell technology.

Officials at DCNS have also suggested that the DRDO system, being developed by the Naval Materials Research Laboratory in Mumbai, is unlikely to meet timelines given that it will need to be ready (developed fully and then tested in dock, at sea and at depth after integration with the submarine) before 2015 -- a "difficult proposition", according to one official. DRDO officials contest this, and insist that the programme is on track and will meet timelines. DCNS plans to recommend to the Indian Navy that the Plan-B be invoked if the DRDO doesn't meet a specified timeline (beyond which, delays would impact the submarine build itself) on the indigenous AIP. It also plans to suggest that the DRDO AIP then be retrofitted on the first four submarines, if the Indian Navy wants that.

Source : Livefist: France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP (Livefist)

Time to give VVIP security cover to our scientists and Engineers involved in Naval equipment research and Development. Hope our Top brass has the brain that allows them to think on the unthinkable.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Latest dna exclusive: Amid blacklisting process, Agusta firm gets torpedo deal
Friday, Jan 17, 2014, 6:43 IST | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

LINK: dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-amid-blacklisting-process-agusta-firm-gets-torpedo-deal-1952195

Within weeks of the defence ministry cancelling the Rs3,600 crore deal with AgustaWestland to procure 12 VVIP choppers, it has quietly gone ahead and cleared another multi-million dollar deal with Finmeccanica, Agusta's parent company, for the procurement of 98 torpedoes for the navy.

So, was this deal done because all the processes for the torpedo deal were declared as 'clean' by various committees? Or was it done despite the fact that Augusta Westland could soon find itself blacklisted? Once blacklisted all companies in the group including the parent company, in this case Finmeccanica, also face the axe.

Significantly, this deal has been struck at a time when the process of blacklisting Finmeccanica has begun. A top defence ministry source told dna that about a fortnight ago, the Defence Acquisition Council headed by Antony cleared the proposal to procure Black Shark torpedoes for $300 million for the navy. "Now, it will go to the cabinet committee on security for the final nod," said a senior ministry officer.

Black Shark torpedoes are multi-purpose weapons designed to launch from both submarines and surface vessels. They are manufactured by a Finmeccanica company called WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei).

According to sources, the Indian navy will arm its Scorpene and conventional submarines with Black Shark torpedoes which have a range of 30 miles and can be launched from submarines and warships. Of the 98 torpedoes that India has sought, 20 would be procured from the original equipment manufacturer and the rest would be manufactured by Bharat Dynamics under licence in India. Transfer of technology under the contract will allow maintenance and overhaul of the torpedoes.

Some MPs questioned the procurement process and levelled allegations. Antony set up a Special Technical Oversight Committee to look into the complaints. The committee in its May 2013 report said the procurement process was carried out in a transparent manner.

 

[sivachandan]

French equipment is super costly....for example upgradation of mig 29 was half the prize of mirage 2000

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Defence ministry reviews move to buy (Black Shark) torpedoes
Rajat Pandit,The Times of India, 18 Jan 2014

LINK: timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Defence-ministry-reviews-move-to-buy-torpedoes/articleshow/28974972.cms

NEW DELHI: It's once again a toss-up between critical operational military requirements and corruption allegations, a recurring theme in India's arms procurement saga ever since the infamous Bofors scandal of the 1980s.

The defence ministry is now doing a "rethink'' on its own recent clearance to the long-pending Rs 1,800 crore naval project to buy 98 heavyweight torpedoes for the Scorpene submarines.

The reason: the 'Black Shark' torpedoes were to be bought from Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquel (WASS), a subsidiary of Italian conglomerate Finmeccanica, which is under the scanner in the VVIP helicopter scam.

Curiously enough, the A K Antony-led Defence Acquisitions Council gave the green signal to the torpedo project just 10 days before the controversial Rs 3,546 crore contract for 12 VVIP helicopters with AgustaWestland, the UK-based subsidiary of Finmeccanica, was cancelled on January 1.

Even as the CBI probes the "criminality and kickbacks'' in the VVIP chopper scam, the defence ministry is grappling with the question that if the blacklisting process is to be initiated, whether it should be restricted to only AgustaWestland or include the entire Finmeccanica group? There are already 15 armament companies on its "debarred list''.

"No formal decision on blacklisting has yet been considered or taken,'' said a senior ministry official. Finmeccanica and its companies are already involved in several ongoing defence projects in India. By one estimate, the conglomerate is also in contention for Indian military contracts worth over $6 billion, ranging from helicopters and aircraft to missiles and guns.

The DAC had on December 23 cleared the acquisition of the Black Shark torpedoes to arm the six French-origin Scorpene submarines, which are being built for over Rs 23,000 crore at Mazagon Docks. "The DAC decision, which was to be approved by the finance ministry and Cabinet Committee on Security, has now been put on hold,'' said the official.

The Black Shark torpedo project has a long and chequered history. It was earlier put on hold after the vendor who lost -- German Atlas Elektronik Gmbh that produces Seahake torpedoes - complained to the Central Vigilance Commission about "irregularities'' in the selection process. But later, it was cleared by all, including a special technical oversight committee.

"National security is being compromised by frequent derailing of defence projects due to corruption, real or imagined, as well as vendor wars. As soon as a vendor loses in a tender, a paper war begins to scuttle the prospects of the company that has won,'' said an insider.

The defence ministry, which faces flak for its painfully slow and complex procurement procedures, has further muddied waters with its inconsistent policies. On one hand, it promptly banned Singapore Technologies Kinetics, South African Denel, Rheinmetall Air Defence (Zurich), Corporation Defence Russia, BVT Poland and others after corruption allegations. On the other, it refused to blacklist Israeli Aerospace Industries and Rafael despite similar charges on the ground that it would be "counter-productive'' to national security.

 

[arp2041]

 

[Sea Eagle]

Scorpene subs to enter service without torpedoes....

Business Standard

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

French equipment is super costly....for example upgradation of mig 29 was half the prize of mirage 2000

mig35 was one third of the cost of rafale
.
su35 is half the cost of rafael

 

[Sea Eagle]

India's Project 75 SSKs: Too Late to Save the Submarine Force?

Fast action needed to avoid having India's subs enter service without torpedoes; Project 75i intends to have HSL build a sub, after they destroyed a Kilo Class sub trying to overhaul it.

India's submarine fleet currently consists of 16 boats: 10 Russian SSK Kilo (Sindhugosh) Class, 4 locally built SSK U209 (Shishumar) Class, a leased nuclear-powered Improved Akula Class SSN from Russia (INS Chakra), and its own INS Arihant SSBN. Most of the Kilos have been modernized, but readiness rates for India's existing submarine fleet sits below 40%, and the U209s will have trouble lasting much beyond 2015. With Pakistan acquiring modern submarines, and Chinese submarine building exploding, expanding India's submarine fleet became an obvious national priority.
In 2005,India confirmed that it would buy 6 Franco-Spanish Scorpene diesel submarines, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements. Unfortunately, 7 years after that deal was signed, "Project 75" has yet to field a single submarine. A poor Indian procurement approach, and state-run inefficiency, are pushing the country's overall submarine force toward an aging crisis. This DID FOCUS article covers the Scorpene deal and its structure, adds key contracts and new developments, and offers insights into the larger naval picture beyond India.

 

[hitesh]

French equipment is super costly....for example upgradation of mig 29 was half the prize of mirage 2000

Buddy, Quality comes with a price , Mig29 might be cheaper but if you consider the cost of operation & maintenance then ming29 would be costlier than Mirage2000 IAF knows it very well that's why they insisted on mirage before going for MMRCA competition

 

[cobra commando]

First Scorpene submarine to be ready by Sept 2016: Admiral Dhowan - The Hindu

 

[SilentKiller]

First Scorpene submarine to be ready by Sept 2016: Admiral Dhowan - The Hindu

Tooo late, isn't its possible to let french build 2 more subs in france meanwhile such that by 2016 we get one of that too and with AIP?

 

[Twinblade]

First Scorpene submarine to be ready by Sept 2016: Admiral Dhowan - The Hindu

What the article doesn't mention is that it will start trials in 2015 and get inducted in 2016.
[tweet]477323199131049985[/tweet]

Tooo late, isn't its possible to let french build 2 more subs in france meanwhile such that by 2016 we get one of that too and with AIP?

No. It takes 5 years to build a sub anyway under regular timelines.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

1st photo of the completed hull of the Scorpene submarine at MDL Mumbai. 1st sub to be put in water by Sept 2015

 

[cobra commando]

Jaitley Reviews Prestigious Scorpene Submarine Project in Mumbai - The New Indian Express

 

[Punya Pratap]

If I am not wrong, the delivery schedule is 1st sub by 2016 and one each per year there on?

Experts please advise! !

Also the Russians were proposing Two Amur class as stop gap solution but I heard that they are engaging with China for co-production of Amur with a joint venture of AIP!!

If China gets Amur than that's the end of Amur class's future for IN

 

[arnabmit]

First Scorpene submarine to become reality soon

The first Scorpene submarine, to be named INS Kalvari post-commissioning, is almost ready and will go on trial within a year, following which it will be inducted into the Navy in 2016.

The six Scorpene class of submarines will initially be based at Mumbai for trial and later shifted to their operational base at Karwar, which harbours the new aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya with its fleet of MiG-29K fighters.

Two more submarines are in the outfitting stage and are likely to be delivered to the Navy at a gap of eight months each from the commissioning of the first submarine.All the six boats would be ready for operational use by 2018-19, giving the much needed boost to the Navy's depleting under water wing.

Following a naval tradition, in which warships never die, the new diesel-electric submarines will be named as per the old Foxtrot class boats, which were decommissioned decades ago. They were the first submarines of the Navy. The first two Scorpene submarines would be christened as Kalvari and Khanderi.

As Defence Minister Arun Jaitley and Navy chief Admiral R K Dhowan reviewed the progress in the Scorpene project at the Mazgaon dock in Mumbai, officials said the systems of the first submarine are being "set to work", which means bulk of the manufacturing is over and what is left now is virtually tightening the nuts and bolts.

The first batch of crew of 10 Navy officers and 35 sailors, headed by the submarine's skipper Commodore S D Mahendale, have been sent for training, sources told Deccan Herald.

Six French-origin SSK submarines are under construction in a Rs 18,798 crore project at Mazgaon dock under technology transfer from DCNS. The project is almost three years behind schedule.

Following the accidents on INS Sindhurakshak and INS Sindhuratna, the Navy currently has 14 operational submarines. But with the exception of Russian-origin nuclear powered submarine INS Chakra, most of the Indian submarines are old, necessitating mid-life upgrades. The indigenous nuclear submarine Arihant is yet to go for a sea trial.

On the contrary, China is reported to have close to 80 submarines, including more than 10 nuclear powered boats. Though Pakistan has fewer submarines, their boats are equipped with air independent propulsion technology that allows submarines to stay longer underwater.

Jaitley also inaugurated a Rs 800 crore Mazgaon dock modernisation project to enhance the yard's ability to construct warships and submarines.