IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[IndianHawk]

And these 1.9 billion are only to built a sub.
You have to add, for any new customer and any new sub (or fighter, or main battle tank or...), the crew training, the cost of harbor accomodation, the spare parts, the test beds and tools, the weapons...
It cost a lot.

No that's the cost of building one of world's most advanced nuke sub. To say an SSK price is justified around it is pure deliberate Lying.

 

[IndianHawk]

The Navy wants a lot of things, many of which are neither financially feasible nor practically logical. Like 3 carriers built to 3 different sizes and designs with 3 different propulsion systems and 3 completely different air wings. Having a 24 hull SSK fleet is not required, having a 24 hull SSK fleet with 3 or 4 totally different classes is madness.

It's upto the Govt to take a firm hand on proceedings and dictate a clear and concise strategic vision and tell the Navy to fit its planning accordingly. Create strategic partnerships, and don't give anyone a chance to do their usual chai-paani paisa circus with global tenders sent out to every tom, dick and harry

It's in 30 year plan of navy. 6 75 at one dockyard building expertise + 675i at another dockyard building expertise.

Then build 12 indegenios at these 2 dockyards parallely .

It's a solid plan . And obviously they want something different in expertise at second dockyard . Otherwise they'd simply build 12 Scorpion at single yard .

Carrier plan was straight forward before American interfered. We were going to build conventional Vishal with catobar . Now American want us to go 65k , nuclear with emals. Which again we can't afford now. So it's stuck in limbo.

 

[uoftotaku]

It's in 30 year plan of navy. 6 75 at one dockyard building expertise + 675i at another dockyard building expertise.

Then build 12 indegenios at these 2 dockyards parallely .

It's a solid plan . And obviously they want something different in expertise at second dockyard . Otherwise they'd simply build 12 Scorpion at single yard .

Which is why I mentioned earlier that the whole plan has been superseded by developments.

We already have 2 yards building subs now...MDL and L&T SBC. What is the point of creating skills and expertise in MDL for Scorpenes only to let the line sit idle for another 10 years until 75i is completed in a 3rd location only for the MDL line to be re-activated to build a so far undefined indigenous SSK? Those workers will not keep their skills fresh...the machinery will rust away...everything we have spent time and effort to build up will fall into waste just like what happened for the Type 209 debacle

For indigenous SSK...we are missing several crucial tech pieces one which NO project has been started. Having another shipyard build foreign design will not solve those specific issues.

Its all good having a 30 year plan if you actually follow the 30 year timeline. However, we have fallen way behind and the plan has not been (publicly) updated to reflect the new realities.

 

[IndianHawk]

Which is why I mentioned earlier that the whole plan has been superseded by developments.

We already have 2 yards building subs now...MDL and L&T SBC. What is the point of creating skills and expertise in MDL for Scorpenes only to let the line sit idle for another 10 years until 75i is completed in a 3rd location only for the MDL line to be re-activated to build a so far undefined indigenous SSK? Those workers will not keep their skills fresh...the machinery will rust away...everything we have spent time and effort to build up will fall into waste just like what happened for the Type 209 debacle

For indigenous SSK...we are missing several crucial tech pieces one which NO project has been started. Having another shipyard build foreign design will not solve those specific issues.

Its all good having a 30 year plan if you actually follow the 30 year timeline. However, we have fallen way behind and the plan has not been (publicly) updated to reflect the new realities.

Yup we have screwed up in the follow up of the plan. If we had already started 75i then in next 4-5 years we could've started building indegenios subs after Scorpion line is vacated.

I don't think this time our yards will sit idle . I'm guessing either a few more Scorpion will be build ( 4 more to fully replace kilo class) or MDL will start building an indegenios sub based on Scorpion expertise.

We are in design phase of indegenios SSN of 5 -6 ton class. That design shall be ready in few years . Parallely we can modify that design for a bigger ssk of 4 ton just like french did with barracuda.
This big SSK can carry bramhos and nirbhay in loads and attack enemies with long distances.

This way we can start building indegenios SSK parallel to indegenios SSN . The components and tech we are missing for SSK can be purchased outright. They won't be the most advanced ssk in world but they will still be better than Chinese ssk.

I'm guessing that is the way forward.

Or if govt is hell bent on foreign TOT than we can see 75i design being manufactured parallely at two dockyards one original foreign design and one modified indegenios design.

I don't really know what will happen. But govt wants more tech than whatever came with Scorpion and if Scorpion deal couldn't deliver tech why will a barracuda deal provide tech??

Hence by vote to HDW. Their financial troubles are a pittance for german govt if they have a solid contract lined up. Even politically ssk are safer to export as they are rarely used in anger unlike fighter jets etc .

I may obviously be wrong but I think 75i is not for France. They got 75 already and govt still wants something more.

That leaves German and Russian in contention. Out of those I'm betting on Germany.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Yup we have screwed up in the follow up of the plan. If we had already started 75i then in next 4-5 years we could've started building indegenios subs after Scorpion line is vacated.

I don't think this time our yards will sit idle . I'm guessing either a few more Scorpion will be build ( 4 more to fully replace kilo class) or MDL will start building an indegenios sub based on Scorpion expertise.

We are in design phase of indegenios SSN of 5 -6 ton class. That design shall be ready in few years . Parallely we can modify that design for a bigger ssk of 4 ton just like french did with barracuda.
This big SSK can carry bramhos and nirbhay in loads and attack enemies with long distances.

This way we can start building indegenios SSK parallel to indegenios SSN . The components and tech we are missing for SSK can be purchased outright. They won't be the most advanced ssk in world but they will still be better than Chinese ssk.

I'm guessing that is the way forward.

Or if govt is hell bent on foreign TOT than we can see 75i design being manufactured parallely at two dockyards one original foreign design and one modified indegenios design.

I don't really know what will happen. But govt wants more tech than whatever came with Scorpion and if Scorpion deal couldn't deliver tech why will a barracuda deal provide tech??

Hence by vote to HDW. Their financial troubles are a pittance for german govt if they have a solid contract lined up. Even politically ssk are safer to export as they are rarely used in anger unlike fighter jets etc .

I may obviously be wrong but I think 75i is not for France. They got 75 already and govt still wants something more.

That leaves German and Russian in contention. Out of those I'm betting on Germany.

I still think Russian killo class sub can be a good competitor she is also having nickname blackhole. If Russians can do a good lobbying there chances of winning also exists this whole p-75i project is started to have more technology transfer which was a issue in previous deal . This whole case is a mess we need some time to figure it out. But Germans did gave TOT to South Korea because of that they were able to ks-3 and were able to update there type 214
Baracuda based SSK cost billions which is just ridiculously out of our budget. Project 75I was a indigenous project but because of lack of tot / capabilities we are unable to build one. The question exists is why government will again ask for the tot of Scorpene when we already have it. One case is in which we ask French assistance in building indigenous subs under p-75i.
Unlike South Korea we are not a nato ally so Germans can be little conscious doesn't want to give india tot. In that case only Russia is left with there Killo class amur is half backed.

 

[IndianHawk]

I still think Russian killo class sub can be a good competitor she is also having nickname blackhole. If Russians can do a good lobbying there chances of winning also exists this whole p-75i project is started to have more technology transfer which was a issue in previous deal . This whole case is a mess we need some time to figure it out. But Germans did gave TOT to South Korea because of that they were able to ks-3 and were able to update there type 214
Baracuda based SSK cost billions which is just ridiculously out of our budget.

I think navy wants western technology for SSK. Russian tech will help SSN where nobody will help us. German also gave us TOT back in 1980s but then Russian offered even cheaper kilos and since we were bankrupt we chose kilos over building on the German TOT.

Still Russian are always in the game with India. But they are behind on conventional tech. Even DRDO aip is far ahead of any Russian aip.

 

[IndianHawk]

A relook at the Australian submarine blunder.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-aggregate-failure-of-australias-submarine-policy/


There are two problems with that way of thinking about submarine capability. First, our future submarine will operate in waters with nuclear-powered submarines from at least four other countries, which will necessarily outmatch it for speed and endurance. Second, unit performance superiority isn’t the sole determinant—or maybe not even a major determinant—of mission success

This isn’t—or at least shouldn’t be—an exercise in building the best conventional submarine known to man. It should be a national effort to reduce future strategic risk by matching strategy with the right number of suitably capable submarines, whether that be six, 12 or 20.



Above admission tells that trying to build a ssk as big as SSN is futile. If you're going big go with SSN just like USA and France don't be an Idiot like Australia .

And if you want SSK it should be rather fast , Stealthy and cheap to operate and maintain near our shores.

 

[uoftotaku]

Yup we have screwed up in the follow up of the plan. If we had already started 75i then in next 4-5 years we could've started building indegenios subs after Scorpion line is vacated.

I don't think this time our yards will sit idle . I'm guessing either a few more Scorpion will be build ( 4 more to fully replace kilo class) or MDL will start building an indegenios sub based on Scorpion expertise.

We are in design phase of indegenios SSN of 5 -6 ton class. That design shall be ready in few years . Parallely we can modify that design for a bigger ssk of 4 ton just like french did with barracuda.
This big SSK can carry bramhos and nirbhay in loads and attack enemies with long distances.

This way we can start building indegenios SSK parallel to indegenios SSN . The components and tech we are missing for SSK can be purchased outright. They won't be the most advanced ssk in world but they will still be better than Chinese ssk.

I'm guessing that is the way forward.

Or if govt is hell bent on foreign TOT than we can see 75i design being manufactured parallely at two dockyards one original foreign design and one modified indegenios design.

I don't really know what will happen. But govt wants more tech than whatever came with Scorpion and if Scorpion deal couldn't deliver tech why will a barracuda deal provide tech??

Hence by vote to HDW. Their financial troubles are a pittance for german govt if they have a solid contract lined up. Even politically ssk are safer to export as they are rarely used in anger unlike fighter jets etc .

I may obviously be wrong but I think 75i is not for France. They got 75 already and govt still wants something more.

That leaves German and Russian in contention. Out of those I'm betting on Germany.

The MDL line is already idling on the backend. Long lead processes for all Scorpenes were completed last year and module fit out is ongoing. Within this year the entire primary fabrication process will be devoid of work. So any follow on orders for Scorpene or otherwise need to be placed NOW otherwise there will be a gap. That seems unavoidable for now but let's see.

On SSN front, primary design is already done. The major component pending is the reactor which BARC is struggling to fit into the allocated space. If BARC throws in the towel then the current hull design may have to be shelved...again.

As far as ToT is concerned, the Govt is hoping for several components which are logically laid out :

- Propulsion Motors (India lags behind in PEM motors which Germans and French have cornered)

- Diesel Gen Set

- Driveline Gearboxes

- Combat Management System and Fire Control Software

- Non Magnetic HY-100 equivalent steel

- Digital Periscopes

Everything else we have already been down the development path. The ToT agreement in the original Scorpene deal has a distinctive Khangressi stamp on it. Naval Group however have offered a far more hospitable package for the 75i contract. If GOI does sign a proper strategic partnership agreement with France then it's game on all the way.

The dark horse in this equation is Japan. The Soryu might not be a contender but there are several technologies they possess which our guys covet and Japs are desperate for export orders. Ninda Turtle's recent trip there had some interesting discussion about tech collaboration which if it is followed up...would be a true game changer in the Indo-Pac region.

Wait and watch for now

 

[BON PLAN]

If the Scorpene leaks are not that serious then India should go for six more Scorpenes with DRDO AIP [with higher displacement ~ 2500 t] as a continuity to current production line in Mazagon ... This will save lot of time ...

Rest spend the money on SSK [ India can negociate with Russia for more Akulas types] ...

India needs at least 35 Submarines to keep China at check ...

As already said, the leaks were about marketing datas. A move from the german competitors in an attempt to destabilize DCNS now Naval Group. Absolutely nothing serious.
If a sub is really very quiet (Scorpene as SF Barrauda use all the experience on this field from SLBM Triomphant and yet to come SSNBarracuda. An experience of blue water that German don't have...), it is useless for a foe to know that. As to know that F22 is stealth. It's a fact.

 

[BON PLAN]

I am thinking logically it's still very expensive for an SSK. We can build and run indegenios SSN for the same price or less. And maintain it for 30 years.

If we were buying nuke submarine I'd agree with that price , not for a mere ssk.

if it is so simple, do it.
But it's not as easy.

And a smaller SSK can go where a heavier SSN can't or with difficulties. Ex : costal operations.

USN only thaught of blue water operation, because they are a big fleet.
France Navy don't have money for SSK and SSN, so we use our budget for the powerfull SSN, but some SSN may be usefull. same for Royal Navy.

 

[BON PLAN]

So will be buy a submarine to not use it? Not maintain it? Stop this nonsense of dry price .

State the full price of manufacturing , maintainance and service. Because everyone will have to pay that price eventually.

It was just to compare a 1.9 billion Virginia SSN dry price to a 35 billion for 12 SF Barracuda full price.

 

[BON PLAN]

And Virginia class in all nuclear. Much much more capable than any ssk could ever be !

NO.
Not in costal operations for exemple.

 

[BON PLAN]

If you're going big go with SSN just like USA and France don't be an Idiot like Australia .

Australia is not a nuclear power.
India is.
It's a very different way of thinking.

 

[bhavesh100]

And these 1.9 billion are only to built a sub.
You have to add, for any new customer and any new sub (or fighter, or main battle tank or...), the crew training, the cost of harbor accomodation, the spare parts, the test beds and tools, the weapons...
It cost a lot.

Yes I understand. Thanks. $$$$$$$$

 

[IndianHawk]

if it is so simple, do it.
But it's not as easy.

And a smaller SSK can go where a heavier SSN can't or with difficulties. Ex : costal operations.

USN only thaught of blue water operation, because they are a big fleet.
France Navy don't have money for SSK and SSN, so we use our budget for the powerfull SSN, but some SSN may be usefull. same for Royal Navy.

Smaller ssk! Barracuda is not small it's upward 4 tons. Indian SSN will be 5-6 ton.

We are building SSN regardless of 75i .

 

[IndianHawk]

It was just to compare a 1.9 billion Virginia SSN dry price to a 35 billion for 12 SF Barracuda full price.

Again it's not comparable since Virginia is nuke SSN and high price is justified. Not for an SSK.

 

[IndianHawk]

NO.
Not in costal operations for exemple.

If that's the logic then smallest ssk will be better like Amur from Russia.

 

[IndianHawk]

Australia is not a nuclear power.
India is.
It's a very different way of thinking.

Exactly India must go for big nuke SSN and small coastal ssk . No need for some absurd non nuke yet big ssk.

 

[IndianHawk]

The MDL line is already idling on the backend. Long lead processes for all Scorpenes were completed last year and module fit out is ongoing. Within this year the entire primary fabrication process will be devoid of work. So any follow on orders for Scorpene or otherwise need to be placed NOW otherwise there will be a gap. That seems unavoidable for now but let's see.

On SSN front, primary design is already done. The major component pending is the reactor which BARC is struggling to fit into the allocated space. If BARC throws in the towel then the current hull design may have to be shelved...again.

As far as ToT is concerned, the Govt is hoping for several components which are logically laid out :

- Propulsion Motors (India lags behind in PEM motors which Germans and French have cornered)

- Diesel Gen Set

- Driveline Gearboxes

- Combat Management System and Fire Control Software

- Non Magnetic HY-100 equivalent steel

- Digital Periscopes

Everything else we have already been down the development path. The ToT agreement in the original Scorpene deal has a distinctive Khangressi stamp on it. Naval Group however have offered a far more hospitable package for the 75i contract. If GOI does sign a proper strategic partnership agreement with France then it's game on all the way.

The dark horse in this equation is Japan. The Soryu might not be a contender but there are several technologies they possess which our guys covet and Japs are desperate for export orders. Ninda Turtle's recent trip there had some interesting discussion about tech collaboration which if it is followed up...would be a true game changer in the Indo-Pac region.

Wait and watch for now

Then we should go for indegenios ssk. Let Scorpion be the edge and even if our indegenios ssk are a bit behind in tech yet they will provide immense experience of building our own and improving in subsequent batches .

Even if we don't get tot. We can get Western propulsion and drive train outright for initial batch of desi ssk and gradually change them to indian components.

Anyway Chinese are two decades away from having battle ready presence in India ocean . We must use these two decades to mature Indian design and components.

There is no other way we must bite the bullet. Cancel 75i and go for Indian SSK .

 

[BON PLAN]

Smaller ssk! Barracuda is not small it's upward 4 tons. Indian SSN will be 5-6 ton.

We are building SSN regardless of 75i .

Do India need SSK of such a range (18000 miles !!!)? No. for such a requirement a SSN is more accurate.
You need for P75I a bigger SSK than Scorpene, but smaller than the unsual Australian SF Barracuda.
A sub in the 2500 - 3000 max tons, with an indian AIP and some cruise missiles.

About the Attack SF BArracuda class, it was rumored than some of the last subs could be SSN (ie like the fench Barracuda or nearly). To follow...