Prashant12
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IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions
- Thread starter LETHALFORCE
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Which French submarine is actually in the P-75I contention?.. Shortfin Barracuda or enhanced Scorpene?
Flying Dagger
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We should continue with scorpene 3 more then use the skills gained to enhance it we can buy systems from french what we can't build and then may be design our own a total of 24 .
Enhanced Scorpene and Barracuda.
Makes no sense to choose Scorpene again. We can go to the enhanced scorpene route ourselves once we are done with 6 + 3 route to build scorpene .
Germany is the only option which looks interesting provided what we will get as technology transfer ?
It is better to have scorpene class and improve on that with indigenous design rather than complicating with different types of submarine with different nation of origin to deal with.
IN already will be operating 3 different class of aircraft carrier with probably 3 different types of aircraft by next decade . One can only think about the maintenance nightmare . Let's not become the circus Indian airforce is...
I think both on offer .
Enhanced Scorpene and Barracuda.
Makes no sense to choose Scorpene again. We can go to the enhanced scorpene route ourselves once we are done with 6 + 3 route to build scorpene .
Germany is the only option which looks interesting provided what we will get as technology transfer ?
It is better to have scorpene class and improve on that with indigenous design rather than complicating with different types of submarine with different nation of origin to deal with.
IN already will be operating 3 different class of aircraft carrier with probably 3 different types of aircraft by next decade . One can only think about the maintenance nightmare . Let's not become the circus Indian airforce is...
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SF-Barracuda & Scorpene has parts commonality? ..atleast completed to other country's subs?
BTW, anyone know about these indigenous sub designs?
They look like smaller conventional versions of INS Arihant.. these images were shared on this forum earlier.
Flying Dagger
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Barracuda is too expensive and big for our requirement . They may have some commonality .
We don't know what IN is cooking they have surprised us many times. Next 10 years will be big. Project 75i doesn't make sense if isn't German with some Big TOT that they haven't got from scorpene .
Whatever it is It's time they make a call. With limited budget we have they need to set their priority straight .
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They declared that they are not interested in buying additional 3...
Why don't India just make indigenous enhanced Scorpenes with India-made AIP & VLS! What's the point of building something under ToT if we don't to build upon the experience or expertise, but go through the same process all over again?
Flying Dagger
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Exactly Scorpene class is one of the most advanced design and will meet our requirements for decades to follow .
While Russia for the nuke submarine projects as no one else will offer us that.
Hope they avoid the unnecessary mess .
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Actually France can offer a nuclear Shortfin Barracuda as the LEU used in our reactors is commercial grade.
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And these two?.. Nothing?
..................
They look like smaller conventional versions of INS Arihant.. these images were shared on this forum earlier.
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https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/cont...-20120118[Newsletter_V2_Drupal]-20190927-[_2]
A NEW AIP from Naval Group
Naval Group's development of an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for submarines based on a new generation of fuel cells passed a crucial milestone this year. The ground system of the French industrialist, installed on his site of Indret, close to Nantes, indeed worked for 18 days in conditions representative of a real patrol. "It was a question of well checking the functioning of the system with a profile of operational use, as well as the autonomy in diving. For 18 days, the system, connected to batteries to be representative of actual use on a submarine, produced electricity from diesel fuel, operating at high pressure, which means that it does not There is no immersion limitation for its use, "says Anthony Covarrubias, former commander of one of Chile's Chilean Scorpene who now works at Naval Group's Marketing Department.
Transits, very slow speeds, accelerations, fast surface rises, stops of the AIP followed by restarting, management of a possible breakdown or damage ... As on a real submarine, the system was confronted with situations to validate its performance and reliability.
World premiere for reforming from diesel
With these successful tests, Naval Group achieves a remarkable technical challenge for this device producing hydrogen from diesel. "18 days of electricity production from diesel reforming, this is a world first, it went very well and can be reproduced without problem," says Marc Quémeneur, AIP product manager at Naval Group. The French manufacturer proposes this solution to increase the diving autonomy of conventional submarines and to avoid them to the maximum to return to the surface to recharge their batteries, during which time the building is vulnerable.
Called AIP FC-2G (Fuel Cell Second Generation - FC-2G), this system has required a decade of research. Technologically, it includes two main innovations. First, the hydrogen used for fuel cell operation is manufactured directly on board, via a chemical reforming process from diesel fuel used by diesel-generators. This process provides increased security by the absence of hydrogen storage on board. The exhaust fumes are discarded discreetly, since they dissolve instantly in the water. In parallel, Naval Group has designed a patented system to produce air by injecting nitrogen at the oxygen inlet of the cell, this oxygen being stored in cryogenic form in a tank. Synthetic air reacts with hydrogen in the fuel cell to produce electricity, which powers the submarine's batteries and the electric propulsion motor. The battery is confined in a closed and ventilated enclosure to control a possible leakage of hydrogen or oxygen.
Standalone operation or in tandem with batteries
Designed for a lifespan of 10,000 hours, the fuel cell has a capacity of 250 kW. It feeds the electrical plant when the submarine is in AIP mode, thus allowing the electric propulsion motor to run and provide the power consumption of the edge. The building can then evolve on this system alone at a speed of up to about 5 knots, knowing that to obtain a range of three weeks in diving, the use profile varies between 2 and 4 knots. To do this, the power required for the AIP FC-2G is between 130 and 180 kW. Beyond that, you have to tap into the batteries, the passage from one energy source to another being done without interruption. But one of the interests of Naval Group's AIP is also to be able to supplement the energy provided by the batteries. "In case of acceleration, there is no break and, if we want to go faster than the maximum allowed by the AIP, we pass on the batteries but we can also continue to operate the AIP, which then comes to relieve the batteries and to avoid as much to draw on their reserves. In this way, if the submarine needs to sail for a few hours at a high speed, the AIP serves as a way to extend a little or substantially the autonomy in immersion, "said Anthony Covarrubias.
Many advantages over other systems
Architecturally, the Naval Group AIP FC-2G is a considerable advantage over existing systems, where hydrogen is stored in external tanks, posing weight problems (130 to 160 tons of hydrides of which less 2% usable hydrogen) and refueling. Fuel cells currently in service use, in addition, pure oxygen, which generates a high wear, the filters and membranes to be replaced very regularly. More efficient according to Naval Group, the AIP FC-2G offers, according to its designers, a time of use between each major maintenance approximately five times higher than that of its foreign competitors. "Our system really fits into the operational scheme of a submarine. It requires only a short interruption of three weeks each year, the only equipment to be changed during this maintenance period being the catalysts. In the meantime, there is nothing to do! Says Marc Quémeneur.
Finally, the choice of hydrogen production from diesel fuel facilitates refueling and storage (single fuel on the submarine) while improving safety compared to systems using for example methanol, more flammable and introducing toxic products in case of leakage.
The device fully integrated in a standalone module
Like MESMA, the first AIP developed by the French group and which equips the Agosta 90B Pakistani, the entire system AIP FC-2G is grouped in a single module, autonomous from the rest of the submarine. The system is housed in a hull section about 8 meters long integrated into the boat from the beginning or added after recasting with a minimum of modifications to the existing. Adaptable to buildings with a diameter of at least 6 meters, such as Scorpene or the conventional propulsion version of the Barracuda, the AIP FC-2G was obviously designed not to impact the overall performance, starting with the capacity immersion and acoustic discretion.
The onshore system in service since 2011
The performances announced by Naval Group can therefore be guaranteed thanks to the tests carried out in recent years on a full-size AIP FC-2G system installed in Indret. After testing on a demonstrator dedicated to the production of hydrogen from 2003 to 2010, the full scale device 1 was built in 2010. It went into service the following year and now has more than 6000 hours of the equivalent of six years of use. It is therefore, according to Naval Group, a system now reliable and proven even before having embarked on a submarine. "6000 hours of operation and production of hydrogen is more than a cycle of operation between two periods of major maintenance," underline Marc Quémeneur and Damien Lelandais, system architect of the FC-2G program.
Ready to use with further prospects for improvement
The system is therefore "ready to be marketed" and already proposed by Naval Group to a number of navies. While waiting for first orders, the work will continue. "We will continue to test operational profiles and focus on system optimization, efficiency, maintenance and maintenance." For example, engineers will work on improving the efficiency of the system by reducing oxygen consumption, particularly through new technologies such as additive manufacturing. "We have great prospects for system evolutions and we see a real potential for increasing performance in power and autonomy that will allow to go on large submarines while remaining in very interesting volumes."
While the device is now coupled with traditional lead-acid batteries, Naval Group is also working on the integration of battery-powered submarines using lithium-ion technology, which will expand operational performance.
=> Just on time for P75I ....
A NEW AIP from Naval Group
Naval Group's development of an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for submarines based on a new generation of fuel cells passed a crucial milestone this year. The ground system of the French industrialist, installed on his site of Indret, close to Nantes, indeed worked for 18 days in conditions representative of a real patrol. "It was a question of well checking the functioning of the system with a profile of operational use, as well as the autonomy in diving. For 18 days, the system, connected to batteries to be representative of actual use on a submarine, produced electricity from diesel fuel, operating at high pressure, which means that it does not There is no immersion limitation for its use, "says Anthony Covarrubias, former commander of one of Chile's Chilean Scorpene who now works at Naval Group's Marketing Department.
Transits, very slow speeds, accelerations, fast surface rises, stops of the AIP followed by restarting, management of a possible breakdown or damage ... As on a real submarine, the system was confronted with situations to validate its performance and reliability.
World premiere for reforming from diesel
With these successful tests, Naval Group achieves a remarkable technical challenge for this device producing hydrogen from diesel. "18 days of electricity production from diesel reforming, this is a world first, it went very well and can be reproduced without problem," says Marc Quémeneur, AIP product manager at Naval Group. The French manufacturer proposes this solution to increase the diving autonomy of conventional submarines and to avoid them to the maximum to return to the surface to recharge their batteries, during which time the building is vulnerable.
Called AIP FC-2G (Fuel Cell Second Generation - FC-2G), this system has required a decade of research. Technologically, it includes two main innovations. First, the hydrogen used for fuel cell operation is manufactured directly on board, via a chemical reforming process from diesel fuel used by diesel-generators. This process provides increased security by the absence of hydrogen storage on board. The exhaust fumes are discarded discreetly, since they dissolve instantly in the water. In parallel, Naval Group has designed a patented system to produce air by injecting nitrogen at the oxygen inlet of the cell, this oxygen being stored in cryogenic form in a tank. Synthetic air reacts with hydrogen in the fuel cell to produce electricity, which powers the submarine's batteries and the electric propulsion motor. The battery is confined in a closed and ventilated enclosure to control a possible leakage of hydrogen or oxygen.
Standalone operation or in tandem with batteries
Designed for a lifespan of 10,000 hours, the fuel cell has a capacity of 250 kW. It feeds the electrical plant when the submarine is in AIP mode, thus allowing the electric propulsion motor to run and provide the power consumption of the edge. The building can then evolve on this system alone at a speed of up to about 5 knots, knowing that to obtain a range of three weeks in diving, the use profile varies between 2 and 4 knots. To do this, the power required for the AIP FC-2G is between 130 and 180 kW. Beyond that, you have to tap into the batteries, the passage from one energy source to another being done without interruption. But one of the interests of Naval Group's AIP is also to be able to supplement the energy provided by the batteries. "In case of acceleration, there is no break and, if we want to go faster than the maximum allowed by the AIP, we pass on the batteries but we can also continue to operate the AIP, which then comes to relieve the batteries and to avoid as much to draw on their reserves. In this way, if the submarine needs to sail for a few hours at a high speed, the AIP serves as a way to extend a little or substantially the autonomy in immersion, "said Anthony Covarrubias.
Many advantages over other systems
Architecturally, the Naval Group AIP FC-2G is a considerable advantage over existing systems, where hydrogen is stored in external tanks, posing weight problems (130 to 160 tons of hydrides of which less 2% usable hydrogen) and refueling. Fuel cells currently in service use, in addition, pure oxygen, which generates a high wear, the filters and membranes to be replaced very regularly. More efficient according to Naval Group, the AIP FC-2G offers, according to its designers, a time of use between each major maintenance approximately five times higher than that of its foreign competitors. "Our system really fits into the operational scheme of a submarine. It requires only a short interruption of three weeks each year, the only equipment to be changed during this maintenance period being the catalysts. In the meantime, there is nothing to do! Says Marc Quémeneur.
Finally, the choice of hydrogen production from diesel fuel facilitates refueling and storage (single fuel on the submarine) while improving safety compared to systems using for example methanol, more flammable and introducing toxic products in case of leakage.
The device fully integrated in a standalone module
Like MESMA, the first AIP developed by the French group and which equips the Agosta 90B Pakistani, the entire system AIP FC-2G is grouped in a single module, autonomous from the rest of the submarine. The system is housed in a hull section about 8 meters long integrated into the boat from the beginning or added after recasting with a minimum of modifications to the existing. Adaptable to buildings with a diameter of at least 6 meters, such as Scorpene or the conventional propulsion version of the Barracuda, the AIP FC-2G was obviously designed not to impact the overall performance, starting with the capacity immersion and acoustic discretion.
The onshore system in service since 2011
The performances announced by Naval Group can therefore be guaranteed thanks to the tests carried out in recent years on a full-size AIP FC-2G system installed in Indret. After testing on a demonstrator dedicated to the production of hydrogen from 2003 to 2010, the full scale device 1 was built in 2010. It went into service the following year and now has more than 6000 hours of the equivalent of six years of use. It is therefore, according to Naval Group, a system now reliable and proven even before having embarked on a submarine. "6000 hours of operation and production of hydrogen is more than a cycle of operation between two periods of major maintenance," underline Marc Quémeneur and Damien Lelandais, system architect of the FC-2G program.
Ready to use with further prospects for improvement
The system is therefore "ready to be marketed" and already proposed by Naval Group to a number of navies. While waiting for first orders, the work will continue. "We will continue to test operational profiles and focus on system optimization, efficiency, maintenance and maintenance." For example, engineers will work on improving the efficiency of the system by reducing oxygen consumption, particularly through new technologies such as additive manufacturing. "We have great prospects for system evolutions and we see a real potential for increasing performance in power and autonomy that will allow to go on large submarines while remaining in very interesting volumes."
While the device is now coupled with traditional lead-acid batteries, Naval Group is also working on the integration of battery-powered submarines using lithium-ion technology, which will expand operational performance.
=> Just on time for P75I ....
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It depends. What are the exact requirements of P75I ?
Is it just an improvement over P75 or a big leap in perf ?
In the first case an improved Scorpene with AIP and Scalp Naval (or an indian Nirhbay) is enough, in the other a derivative of SF Barracuda.
Bhurki
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SUT are 70s tech. F21 ( enhanced blackshark) is what is really required. 1800 crore were already sanctioned for 98 torpedo of the kind but MoD stopped the deal right in its track. Now these 6 scorpene will share with 4 HDW subs, some 60 SUT old torpedos already in inventory.
WolfPack86
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Hon’ble Raskha Mantri, Shri Rajnath Singh commissions the second Submarine of Project 75 at ND(Mbi) today.
WolfPack86
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Hon’ble Raskha Mantri, Shri Rajnath Singh commissions the second Submarine of Project 75 at ND(Mbi) today.
WolfPack86
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Weather Gods join #IndianNavy to welcome #INSKhanderi in their fold.
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Who are these two half-completed ships (Destroyers?)?
ladder
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Talwar class frigate. Operational. Mast and part of superstructure isn't properly visible due to background clutter.
