Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

Kshithij

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I think you are getting caught up in the new name.
Mk1A is nothing but a slightly-slightly upgraded Mk1.
It is a necessary step towards Mk2.

I think there'll be no IOC or FOC type certification for Mk1As, hence no time will be wasted.

There are no major design changes, except weight reduction, an EW sensor, some realignment of LRUs, more BVRAAMs will be tested, AESA radar and some other minor stuff.

Mk1As are meant to be a small stepping stone, and not have major changes like more ferry range or MTOW.
MK1's and MK1A are both extremely upgradable. Even after all upgradtions for MK1A, there can be further weight reductions in landing gear. Avionics and weapons package can all be upgraded. Even if there is a better engine with similar volume as GE F04, TWR will increase (which will increase as weight gets reduced as well).
All the source codes are owned by us - many new systems can be added.
I agree that MK1A is somewhat upgradeable. But it is only capable of replacing the existing items with new ones and not adding items.

Landing gear changes will require weight rebalancing and hence redesign
 

Sancho

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Every fighter has to go through the motions of induction FIRST, debugging, upgradation, while simultaneously mass producing.
True and that's what we see now too, FOC to get the fighter to the minimum requirements needed to make it useful for IAF operations and then debugging with the MK1A upgrade to start mass production.
The only problem is, that debugging doesn't delete the flight performance shortfalls, that's only possible with the MK2 upgrade and only then, LCA will be able to meet the ASR!

Bloody hell, the pakis are doing it as well, so why is it so difficult for us to do the same.
Because they achieved what they wanted, by choosing a partner and not making a highly advanced fighter, but a force multiplier, that they can produce and customize to their needs.
They know that the F16 offers more performance, more hardpoints and so on, but it comes limited by what the US is ready to provide them. To surpass this problem, they went with what the Chinese proposed them and now have a fighter that can be linked to AWACS, is mid air refuellable, can do SEAD, stand off strikes and offers more freedom to choose and add avionics or EW, everything which is not possible with their F16.

Our aim with the LCA programme was mainly industrial and not operational, because we knew that we will have and will need more capable fighters besides Tejas, to defend the country.
 

Sancho

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MK1's and MK1A are both extremely upgradable.
Only within the limitations of the airframe. You can't add a more powerful engine, without the necessary internal changes, as well as increasing the air intakes to provide higher air flow.
You can't add more avionics of fuel, without extending or widening the airframe.
You can't integrate the EW, without having internal space or at least added external provisions for more sensors or jammers (see Dhruv EW).
Just as you can weapons only according to the restrictions of the hardpoints (length, width, weight).

So all you can do, is what the MK1A is about, modernising available systems! Pulse doppler radar to AESA radar, RWR replaced with new once. Maybe smaller MFDs with new larger once...

A small light class fighter design, simply has it's limitations.
 

Kshithij

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True and that's what we see now too, FOC to get the fighter to the minimum requirements needed to make it useful for IAF operations and then debugging with the MK1A upgrade to start mass production.
The only problem is, that debugging doesn't delete the flight performance shortfalls, that's only possible with the MK2 upgrade and only then, LCA will be able to meet the ASR!


Because they achieved what they wanted, by choosing a partner and not making a highly advanced fighter, but a force multiplier, that they can produce and customize to their needs.
They know that the F16 offers more performance, more hardpoints and so on, but it comes limited by what the US is ready to provide them. To surpass this problem, they went with what the Chinese proposed them and now have a fighter that can be linked to AWACS, is mid air refuellable, can do SEAD, stand off strikes and offers more freedom to choose and add avionics or EW, everything which is not possible with their F16.

Our aim with the LCA programme was mainly industrial and not operational, because we knew that we will have and will need more capable fighters besides Tejas, to defend the country.
LCA was both industrial and operational. It was unfortunate that the designing went bad. They were too short sighted. They could have developed Tejas MK2 directly instead of trying to be excessively miserly in building as small as possible.

Could have at least tried to get a plane to replace Mirage 2000
 

Sancho

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LCA was both industrial and operational. It was unfortunate that the designing went bad. They were too short sighted. They could have developed Tejas MK2 directly instead of trying to be excessively miserly in building as small as possible.

Could have at least tried to get a plane to replace Mirage 2000

Yes, ADA was shortsighted and completely unexperienced to lead the project, which is a big reason for the problems.
No, they couldn't have developed MK2 directly, because HALs production line would had ran out after 40 fighters, that's why HAL proposed the MK1A compromise, to keep the production running and add only upgrades that can be implemented to the MK1 airframe, while all core MK2 upgrades will be developed alongside the MK1A production.
 

Babloo Singh

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LCA was both industrial and operational. It was unfortunate that the designing went bad. They were too short sighted. They could have developed Tejas MK2 directly instead of trying to be excessively miserly in building as small as possible.

Could have at least tried to get a plane to replace Mirage 2000
Just for record, MK2 will have a 50 cm stretch of fuselage but interesting part is that GE-404 is 42 cm longer than Kaveri...
So what we designed was great.... problem was we didn't had know how to execute it.
Kaveri & some structural material/alloys being main culprit.
Even today if we get to design weight of 5.5K kg or any thing less than 6K & if Safaranized kaveri actually materializes.. we don't need MK-2 as being planned today. We will need it in coming years with different capability.
 

Kshithij

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Just for record, MK2 will have a 50 cm stretch of fuselage but interesting part is that GE-404 is 42 cm longer than Kaveri...
So what we designed was great.... problem was we didn't had know how to execute it.
Kaveri & some structural material/alloys being main culprit.
Even today if we get to design weight of 5.5K kg or any thing less than 6K & if Safaranized kaveri actually materializes.. we don't need MK-2 as being planned today. We will need it in coming years with different capability.
No, Kaveri is same size of F404. F414 is also same size as F404 except for inlet diameter (important as it controls airflow).

Mk2 is needed as Mk1A was designed with several flaws -
1) unnecessary ballast weight due to design change
2) no space for EW pods and SPJ
3) lower fuel storage of 3000 litres

We need Mk2 to make the plane a little bigger to give more space and remove ballast
 

Steven Rogers

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Why do you have to assume that MK2 will be made only to undo shortcomings without being more pragmatic and include as much as possible? Why do you think people are so strictly fanatical?

You can call anything as hyped to just soothe your mind. I can't help that.

Everything is possible. All I am saying is that purposefully botching up in the pretense of making it 'upgraded MK1' when there is every opportunity to redesign things since the MK2 anyways has different airframe, is criminal negligence from ADA. I am not sure whether the ADA people are of such types. According to you they are, according to me, not.

Let us see how things turn out instead of using pretentious technicalities as excuses to make comments.
He is just basing the requirement of 2009, not surprised though.

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Steven Rogers

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The common misconception that is based on pride, rather than the reality of the programme or the operational needs of the IAF to defend the country.

Yes, Tejas the fighter is ours, but we had to go to foreign OEMs to get a working nose, the refuelling probe, the radar, the engine, fixing Kaveri, fixing DRDOs radar, support in test and certification of the fighter, just as fixing NLCA. We can't simply ignore the huge foreign involvement the programme has, more importantly we can't ignore that most of it came only after we messed things up and needed foreign help. If we teamed up with foreign partners from the start, like we did it with the Dhruv, we might have seen more Tejas operational by now.

Apart of that, there is the operational requirement of IAF and the only reason the SE MMRCA tender came up, was that we are at least 90 medium class fighters short after the PM bought only 36 Rafales. So Tejas is not a solution here, once because it still suffers from it's own problems and by the simple fact that it's not a medium class fighter.

We don't help Tejas by ignoring it's problems, or operational limitations. Nor do we help the forces, by blaming them for not buying products that doesn't fit to their operational needs.
"Fixing DRDO Radar" =---??? By Whom
"Fixing Kaveri"=--- French will be getting datas on Variable cycle and flat rated engine which at current only General electrics has in military engine and that's too not operational.
"N-LCA and who helped" =---It was a consult to avoid delays and risk, by the way it ended up in deep research by LCA team instead of an easy cake on their own.
The refueling probe and nose cone came as requirements when IAF released the last fresh sets of requirement for LCA, and too avoid delays we contracted cobham for probe and nose cone(tejas has Indigenous composite nose cone but to utilize the radar completely we required quartz Radome over composite). Yeah we can't deny foreign involvement but have all the previllage to curse those who actually worked on the project. The only reason why SEF fiasco was depleted IAF squadrons and delay in induction of LCA due to frequent change of requirements. The single engine fighter competing performed mediocre in the test evaluated, Tejas is better solution since it is adopted to Indian conditions and as per range and payload comparison, it is hilarious, neither gripen or F16 will have the capability to perform deep strike in China border. We aren't helping in ignoring the problems but we are helping in propagandising western piece of crap which has hilarious record when evaluated by IAF themselves .

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Steven Rogers

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Uttam aesa has more than 700 trm(calc says 736) at this stage, and has range of 150kms for 2m2 target with poweroutput of 2.6kW peak with current configuration.


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tharun

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Uttam aesa has more than 700 trm(calc says 736) at this stage, and has range of 150kms for 2m2 target with poweroutput of 2.6kW peak with current configuration.


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Provide the link for the above images..................
 

Babloo Singh

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No, Kaveri is same size of F404. F414 is also same size as F404 except for inlet diameter (important as it controls airflow).

Mk2 is needed as Mk1A was designed with several flaws -
1) unnecessary ballast weight due to design change
2) no space for EW pods and SPJ
3) lower fuel storage of 3000 litres

We need Mk2 to make the plane a little bigger to give more space and remove ballast
Well if data on wiki about Kaveri is wrong than you may be right about Kaveri being same size as F404.
If wiki is right than we get enough internal space to either have internal EW or increased fuel capacity.
 

Sancho

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"Fixing DRDO Radar" =---??? By Whom
Israel of course, like we do it on most of our indigenous radar projects. We integrated EL2032 parts and A2G modes, because our own radar was not capable enough.

"N-LCA and who helped"
Airbus, helped to reduce the weight, although ADA prefer US companies initially. Since that was not possible, we expanded the Airbus consultancy that we already had on the LCA test programme.

The refueling probe and nose cone came as requirements when IAF released the last fresh sets of requirement for LCA
Not correct, we bought a foreign nose, because our own design created problems for the radar and reduced it's performance. The addition of IFR probe was just added to it:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-tejas-lca-news-and-discussions.1/page-454

The only reason why SEF fiasco was depleted IAF squadrons and delay in induction of LCA due to frequent change of requirements.
The SE MMRCA tender has nothing to do with LCA, but with the fact that the government bought just 36 MMRCA fighters so far, 90 below of the minimum requirement of IAF.
The only reason why people compare LCA to it, is because of the false impression that Tejas has 1 engine as well and therefore must be similar or even as capable, which however is just a dream. Tejas is still trying to meet it's own requirements, while being far behind any MMRCAs, be it single or twin engined once.
 

Sancho

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India considering procuring fighter aircraft.
As expected, more delays to provide IAF the capability to defend the country. Making a PR deal for 36 fighters is not enough!

Air Vice-Marshal (retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters - Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA - create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.

"36 fighters are neither here nor there. From the beginning, the MMRCA was processed as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial," Tyagi says.
Stated on the 11th of April 2015 and IAF is still waiting!
 

Steven Rogers

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Israel of course, like we do it on most of our indigenous radar projects. We integrated EL2032 parts and A2G modes, because our own radar was not capable enough.


Airbus, helped to reduce the weight, although ADA prefer US companies initially. Since that was not possible, we expanded the Airbus consultancy that we already had on the LCA test programme.


Not correct, we bought a foreign nose, because our own design created problems for the radar and reduced it's performance. The addition of IFR probe was just added to it:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-tejas-lca-news-and-discussions.1/page-454


The SE MMRCA tender has nothing to do with LCA, but with the fact that the government bought just 36 MMRCA fighters so far, 90 below of the minimum requirement of IAF.
The only reason why people compare LCA to it, is because of the false impression that Tejas has 1 engine as well and therefore must be similar or even as capable, which however is just a dream. Tejas is still trying to meet it's own requirements, while being far behind any MMRCAs, be it single or twin engined once.
Airbus "helped" . The Indian composite Radome reduced the range the of the radar used to mere 50kms, quartz radome used to meet the enhance radar range requirement. Currently Tejas uses ELM2032, the MMR went into trouble due to A2G and was superseded by Uttam aesa radar.
Seems like SE is falling apart.

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Kshithij

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Israel of course, like we do it on most of our indigenous radar projects. We integrated EL2032 parts and A2G modes, because our own radar was not capable enough.


Airbus, helped to reduce the weight, although ADA prefer US companies initially. Since that was not possible, we expanded the Airbus consultancy that we already had on the LCA test programme.


Not correct, we bought a foreign nose, because our own design created problems for the radar and reduced it's performance. The addition of IFR probe was just added to it:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-tejas-lca-news-and-discussions.1/page-454


The SE MMRCA tender has nothing to do with LCA, but with the fact that the government bought just 36 MMRCA fighters so far, 90 below of the minimum requirement of IAF.
The only reason why people compare LCA to it, is because of the false impression that Tejas has 1 engine as well and therefore must be similar or even as capable, which however is just a dream. Tejas is still trying to meet it's own requirements, while being far behind any MMRCAs, be it single or twin engined once.
Yeah, consultancy is now ToT. No one gave any damn ToT to India. Israel may be an exception. But it is not the case.

SE MMRCA is only RFI. India wanted to try its luck to get ToT. It is not because of 90 plane shortage. When Su30 is available in large numbers and Tejas Mk2 on the line, why would anyone go for import? India wanted ToT which it did not get. With Rafale, India obtained Kaveri consultancy, test bed and certification as offset. But, with SE RFI, none were ready for ToT or meaningful offset. India tried to get consultancy from GE for the same but USA refused.

As expected, more delays to provide IAF the capability to defend the country. Making a PR deal for 36 fighters is not enough!


Stated on the 11th of April 2015 and IAF is still waiting!
SE fighter will be bought only if India gets long term benefits, not because you keep shouting and making random statements.

It is Tejas and AMCA all the way. As long as there is no UPA, there is no need to worry too much about delays
 

Sancho

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It is Tejas and AMCA all the way. As long as there is no UPA, there is no need to worry too much about delays
MMRCA cancelled
Mid air refuelling tanker cancelled
additional PC7 DAC approved first and cancelled later
additional C17 DAC approved, delayed
Avro replacement DAC approved, delayed
additional Mi 17 DAC approved, delayed
additional Phalcon AWACS DAC approved, delayed
...
...
...

And that is only the IAF part of the last 3.5 years. But yeah, nothing to worry about. :tsk:
 

Kshithij

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MMRCA cancelled
Mid air refuelling tanker cancelled
additional PC7 DAC approved first and cancelled later
additional C17 DAC approved, delayed
Avro replacement DAC approved, delayed
additional Mi 17 DAC approved, delayed
additional Phalcon AWACS DAC approved, delayed
...
...
...

And that is only the IAF part of the last 3.5 years. But yeah, nothing to worry about. :tsk:
All imorts will be canceled and thrust will be given to indigenous manufacturing. Since resources are not unlimited, it is important to ensure most of it goes to indigenisation instead of wasting for Imports. It is a matter of joy.

Mid air refuelling is being done on Airbus 330! Even AEWACS will have it

PC& is replaced with Htt40

So on.... All of these will be indigenous.


India under Modi is not a foolish child who studies all night and falls to sleep on exam day. Better to write whatever one knows instead of sleeping. Same way, better to make indigenous items rather than import and pray during war
 

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