Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

Armand2REP

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Safran needs to speed up its work on Kaveri so LCA programme can move on. If officials see LCA is moving forward they will stop asking for SE budgets which need to go to LCA and Rafale. Having an engine that is 70/30 Indo-French is much better than 100% American engine and 1000X better than another foreign fighter that Trump won't give critical ToT.

Hi to all,

I would like to share short and duly confirmed update:
1. There will be more LCAs for IAF (as speculated earlier) and the Total may cross the line of 200 units.
2. There will be another SE jet, it may either F-16 or Gripen. MoD favors F-16 whereas IAF shows its interest in Gripen. selection will be confirmed soon.
3. More Rafales will be there for sure and the number may cross 150..
4. FGFA is still supported by MoD but no support from IAF (as of now)
5. LCA Mk2 seems to be in Bog which leads to the delay in the project and if it continues project maybe crushed. ( more updates later)
6. For AMCA, The project will not see an significant push until or unless developers test the stealth on 1:1 (full scale) model which is final stages of fabrication.
7. IAF despirately want Safran modified Kaveri Engine on all LCAs.

My words:
If Safran/GTRE Kaveri will meet its success than it will be possible to retrofit on India Rafales, but also on Gripen (if selected)

@S.Balaji @Kunal Biswas @gadeshi @soikot banerjee @Vijyes @Sidd @Armand2REP @varun9509 @su30mki2017
 

kurup

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2. There will be another SE jet, it may either F-16 or Gripen. MoD favors F-16 whereas IAF shows its interest in Gripen. selection will be confirmed soon.
I don't understand this ......What is the need for one more SE fighter ??
 

Armand2REP

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I don't understand this ......What is the need for one more SE fighter ??
Because the IAF has identified 52 deficiencies in the Mark 1 and do not see it fit for service until most of them have been addressed. The biggest gripe is maintainability which makes up 19 of the deficiencies. They are desperate to get the Kaveri with Safran maintenance advantage because it will eliminate the biggest problems.
 

Kchontha

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I don't understand this ......What is the need for one more SE fighter ??
In order to appease the tatas or adanis India needs one more SE fighter at the expense of the AF tejas mk2. Nothing more than this. MOD may favour f16 to please the American also while IAF may favour gripen in order to please not the Swedes but the adanis. In either of the cases the looser will be the indegenous combat jets development and manufacturing effort. In other words the diversion of funds towards another SE combat jet means delay of funds or no funds for lca mk2 and AMCA. This type of things only happened in India. You know what happened to Marut. This will be the most insulting period.
 

TPFscopes

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I don't understand this ......What is the need for one more SE fighter ??
In order to appease the tatas or adanis India needs one more SEmghter at the expense of the AF tejas mk2. Nothing more than this. MOD may favour f16 to please the American also while IAF may favour gripen in order to please not the Swedes but the adanis. In either of the cases the looser will be the indegenous combat jets development and manufacturing effort. In other words the diversion of funds towards another SE combat jet means delay of funds or no funds for lca mk2 and AMCA. This type of things only happened in India. You know what happened to Marut. This will be the most insulting period.
The LCA is a light category aircraft while the F-16 or Gripen lies in Medium weight category. Moreover LCA MK2 will be very near to F-16/Gripen's capabilities but it is still in design phase.

GoI wants SE jets tender just to create an aviation hub in India and to get some critical technologies along with the jet which are still unavailable in India.

There is nothing like adani/ambani/Tata or any other. If you have the plan than you may also get selected as SP under SPM.
 

Kchontha

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The LCA is a light category aircraft while the F-16 or Gripen lies in Medium weight category. Moreover LCA MK2 will be very near to F-16/Gripen's capabilities but it is still in design phase.

GoI wants SE jets tender just to create an aviation hub in India and to get some critical technologies along with the jet which are still unavailable in India.

There is nothing like adani/ambani/Tata or any other. If you have the plan than you may also get selected as SP under SPM.
Rafale is also a medium category MRCA which came out as a winner in the stalled M-MRCA competition while f16 and gripen failed. If GOI wants to create an aviation hub then they can also do it with the Tejas and amca not with gripens and f16s. What critical technologies are on offered by these 4th Gen M-MRCAs or by these OEMs which are not offered by rafale deal? Are they offering us the hot engine technology? Are they offering us the stealth technology? Or are they offering us screw drivers' techs?
 

S.Balaji

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The LCA is a light category aircraft while the F-16 or Gripen lies in Medium weight category. Moreover LCA MK2 will be very near to F-16/Gripen's capabilities but it is still in design phase.

GoI wants SE jets tender just to create an aviation hub in India and to get some critical technologies along with the jet which are still unavailable in India.

There is nothing like adani/ambani/Tata or any other. If you have the plan than you may also get selected as SP under SPM.
We have been assembling/manufacturing components since pre-independence era....In 1957 HAL started manufacturing Bristnow ol Siddeley Orpheus jet engines under licence at Bangalore....then Marut....in 1980s we started manufacturing mig-21 ...1990s Su30mki...Hawk, Tejas......if we are not able to add capability/capacity or create an hub with so much experience spread over 70+ years i dont think lowly f16/Gripen manufacturing will create any miracle.

Remember Mig-21 and SU30mki were cutting edge tech at that time ...not some end-of-life story like f16. Tech that went into SU30MKI was such that we had qualitative edge over china until j20/31 showed up and . Some how the reason for inducting F16/Gripen with the objective of creating an hub dosen't sit well.

Another thing reg this f16/Gripen saga, is all this heartburn we are going through stems from an single off the cuff remark made by Parrikar in Feb 2016....no RFI......No official comment from MOD.....
 

Vijyes

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The LCA is a light category aircraft while the F-16 or Gripen lies in Medium weight category. Moreover LCA MK2 will be very near to F-16/Gripen's capabilities but it is still in design phase.

GoI wants SE jets tender just to create an aviation hub in India and to get some critical technologies along with the jet which are still unavailable in India.

There is nothing like adani/ambani/Tata or any other. If you have the plan than you may also get selected as SP under SPM.
So, F16 has agreed to provide strategic technology as make in india? I thought there would be no ToT.

Why not get the required offset from Rafale to build the generic and simple technology?

Also, don't we have Su30 too from which some technology can be obtained?
 
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TPFscopes

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Rafale is also a medium category MRCA which came out as a winner in the stalled M-MRCA competition while f16 and gripen failed.
Please don't messup the requirements of MMRCA & SE.
Both tenders have quite different requirements and I think you well known to them. The basic reason for rejection of f-16/Gripen is that they both are SE jets but MMRCA was dubbed for TE.

Remember Mig-21 and SU30mki were cutting edge tech at that time ...not some end-of-life story like f16.
SE jet tender is still underway and I suggest, to have some patient for selection.

And yes, without competition there will be no proper results on ground.

So, F16 has agreed to provide strategic technology as make in india? I thought there would be no ToT.

Why not get the required offset from Rafale to build the generic and simple technology?
Both LM & Saab presented their basic proposals only and detailed discussion is still pending which will clear the level of ToTs , offsets and share.

So, don't jump to the results with some brief reports.

Specially, I always mentioned on my briefings that the details may changed as the discussion will move further.

Do guys, Have patience and wait for more details.

Good Day to all
 

Vijyes

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http://m.timesofindia.com/business/...n-make-in-india-plan/articleshow/60749371.cms

TOI[/paste:font]
US defence firms want control over technology in Make in India plan

Lockheed Martin and Boeing are both bidding to supply combat jets to India's military, which is running short of hundreds of aircraft as it retires Soviet-era MiG planes, and its own three-decade long effort to produce a domestic jet is hobbled by delays.
HIGHLIGHTS
  • Lockheed Martin and Boeing are both bidding to supply combat jets to India's military.
  • Lockheed has offered to shift its F-16 production line to India from Fort Worth, Texas.
  • PM Modi is pushing for full technology transfer under Make in India.
NEW DELHI: US defence firms offering to set up production lines in India to win deals worth billions of dollars want stronger assurances they won't have to part with proprietary technology, according to a business lobby group's letter to India's defence minister.

These companies are also saying they shouldn't be held liable for defects in products manufactured in collaboration with local partners under Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Make in India's drive to build a military industrial base.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing are both bidding to supply combat jets to India's military, which is running short of hundreds of aircraft as it retires Soviet-era MiG planes, and its own three-decade long effort to produce a domestic jet is hobbled by delays.

Lockheed has offered to shift its F-16 production line to India from Fort Worth, Texas, and make it the sole factory worldwide if India orders at least 100 single-engine fighters.

The US firm has picked Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner under the defence ministry's new Strategic Partnership model under which foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) can hold up to a 49 percent stake in a joint venture with an Indian private firm which will hold the majority of shares.

The US-India Business Council (USIBC) wrote to India's defence minister last month seeking a guarantee that US firms would retain control over sensitive technology - even as joint venture junior partners.

"Control of proprietary technologies is a major consideration for all companies exploring public and private defence partnerships," the business lobby, which represents 400 firms, said in the Aug. 3 letter, reviewed by Reuters and previously unreported.

"To allow foreign OEMs to provide the most advanced technologies, the partnership arrangement between an Indian owned 'strategic partner' company and a foreign OEM needs to provide an opportunity for the foreign OEM to retain control over its proprietary technology," it said, noting this wasn't explicit in the policy document.

TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER

Technology transfer is at the heart of Modi's drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut a reliance on imports that has made India the world's biggest arms importer in recent years.

Without full tech transfer in previous arms deals, India's mainly state-run defence factories have largely been left to assemble knock-down kits even for tanks and aircraft produced under license from the foreign maker.

Modi's advisers have vowed to change that, insisting on transfer of technology so that critical military equipment are designed and manufactured in India.
Benjamin Schwartz, USIBC's director for defense and aerospace, said the new Indian policy offered a roadmap for establishing partnerships between U.S. and Indian companies, but it raised some questions for the firms.

He said he was not in a position to name those companies concerned by the Indian policy, but there was a "general desire to see increased clarity" on several aspects, including the control of proprietary technologies.

QUALITY ISSUES
The USIBC also opposed a clause in the new rules that held foreign firms jointly responsible for the quality of the platforms provided to the military, saying legal liability is a significant factor in business decisions.

"We recommend the MoD (Ministry of Defence) affirm that foreign OEMs will not be liable for defects outside their company's control," the USIBC said.

Lockheed did not respond to a request for comment. Boeing, which is bidding for a separate contract to sell its F/A-18 Super Hornets for India's aircraft carrier fleet, declined to comment on the USIBC letter, but the company's India president, Pratyush Kumar, said there were concerns about Indian private firms' lack of experience in the aerospace sector.

Only state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd had made planes under license, while some private players were starting from scratch, having never built even an aircraft component. Kumar said he could not find a single example worldwide of a private enterprise with limited experience building out a plane under transfer of technology.

"Look at Turkey, look at Japan, look at Brazil - look at multiple countries. In all cases there is a fine balancing act of co-opting the capabilities of both public and private enterprise," he said.

India's defence ministry offered no response to the concerns expressed by the trade lobbying group on the strategic partnership model, which will also apply to building submarines and helicopters as part of a $150 billion modernisation drive.

But an official, referring to sensitive technology, said the government has made clear in the past that foreign firms can be allowed to increase their stake beyond 49 percent if the technology they bring in is state-of-the art.

"It can be done on a case-to-case basis," the official said.

Mukesh Aghi, president of the US-India Strategic Partnership Forum, said that despite the starting problems, defence manufacturing looked set to be a breakthrough area in ties between India and the United States.

"It's the next big thing. There is strong support from the (US President Donald) Trump administration to take this forward."
 

S.Balaji

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Check out the accident rate of viper here... in the last 5 years 50 aircraft was lost.....now how does this stack up with our migs?...i think we lost 10 migs in last 5 years (read somewhere)......our media which is ready to use the terms "widow maker", "Flying Coffin" for Migs , don't know what they would term these staggering viper losses?

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/

2017 - 3 airframes lost in accidents
2016 - 7
2015 - 15
2014 - 12
2013 - 13
 

Willy2

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Check out the accident rate of viper here... in the last 5 years 50 aircraft was lost.....now how does this stack up with our migs?...i think we lost 10 migs in last 5 years (read somewhere)......our media which is ready to use the terms "widow maker", "Flying Coffin" for Migs , don't know what they would term these staggering viper losses?

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/

2017 - 3 airframes lost in accidents
2016 - 7
2015 - 15
2014 - 12
2013 - 13
Thats neither mean we can continue to use "grandpa" after retirement age ...US have around 2000+ F-16 , many of these crashes are belongs to their aerobatics squad , where there is always an allegation that old plane were given to them after paintjob, so they crashes during high acrobatic maneuver....
 

Anikastha

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Seriousl
India line will build 3 to 4 F-16s every month, claims Lockheed Martin
Wednesday, August 23, 2017 By: Live Mint Source Link: CLICK HERE






Lockheed Martin, the world’s biggest defence vendor, which is pitching strongly to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) its new F-16 Block 70 fighter, told Business Standard on Tuesday that, if India chose its fighter, an Indian production line would churn out three-to-four F-16s every month.

“We want to create the capacity to build three or more aircraft per month; we could do four. It depends upon how many aircraft India needs and when it will buy those”, said Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 globally for Lockheed Martin.

Lockheed Martin Corp. could make India the global maintenance hub for its F-16 fighter jets if the country chooses them in an ongoing selection process, a top company executive said.

Lockheed has tied up with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd to bid for India’s $12-billion multi-role fighter jet deal, where it is competing with Gripen jets made by Swedish company SAAB. Days after the partnership was made public at the Paris Air Show, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had met Lockheed Martin chairman and CEO Marillyn Hewson during his visit to US late June.

Keoki Jackson, chief technology officer, Lockheed Martin said the group will build jets with Tatas if and when the deal goes through. “We would love to build F-16 line here in India, and that would, of course, be a partnership with Tatas and if that works out, it will be a huge benefit for both India and the United States in terms of broad manufacturing expertise capabilities, engineering capabilities here in India and jobs both in India and US,” Jackson told Mint in New Delhi, on Wednesday.

Jackson said there were around 3000 F-16s worldwide and India could become a hub to service them.

“The other thing to think about is that there is an installed base of 3000 F-16S around the world; so long term, if you think about the opportunities, there is MRO...because there is a large installed base we would anticipate ongoing large support logistics to sustain those activities for our fleet for many years to come,” he said. MRO stands for maintenance, repair and overhaul of aircraft.

Lockheed already has a partnership with Tatas under which it manufacturers aircraft and aerostructures in Hyderabad. These include empennage and wing boxes for C130 Hercules turboprop military transport aircraft and cabins for Sikorsky helicopters.

“It's a state-of-the- art factory; both the engineering and production quality is extremely high,” Jackson said.

At least 100 such C130 kits from India have been supplied since 2013, he added.

Deliveries of all the C130s will be completed to India by end of the year, he said, adding there were “no fresh requests for C130” from India. In 2008, India ordered six C130 aircraft from Lockheed Martin, followed by another six.

Some analysts have said the Indian deal was critical to keep the production of the legacy jet alive beyond 2020s and maintained that Gripen was ahead in technology. However, Jackson said the Block 70 version of the F-16 was the top-of-the-line aircraft.

“(It is a) decision for the India and US governments (to make) and we are ready to proceed whenever that decision would be,” he said.

Bharat Karnad, professor for national security studies at New Delhi based Centre for Policy Research said SAAB’s Gripen is far ahead in technology and is the unstated choice for the Indian Air Force.

“The Block 70 is an updated version of a 70s vintage fighter aircraft, so it is a bit like a granny dressing up for a debutante’s ball,” he said adding, “About the MRO hub and all that, well, everybody’s taking that...(statement with) a ton of salt. Recall that the original offer was to produce all orders for this aircraft from anywhere from the India source. But under Trump’s pressure, LM decided to continue producing some F-16 and spares for USAF use in order to retain jobs at the Fort Worth F-16 plant in Texas,” he added.

Karnad also said he remained unsure if India will even go ahead with this deal at all.

“Post-Modi’s visit with Trump, an evaluation has been ordered and will take years (with this assessment not available before the 2019 elections), thereby all but killing its prospects,” he said adding it may eventually not happen, “(It will go) through the motions to make the case to Washington that we are giving it careful consideration.”
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...6s-every-month,-claims-Lockheed-Martin-283838

Insane 3 to 4 F-16 per month, here we are struggling to produce 3 to 4 LCA per year............. SHAME on HAL.........SHAME SHAME

HAL MANAGEMENT DOOB MARO SALO.............
seriously dude???
3 to 4 per month?
I wonder whats stopping HAL to do that.
 

WolfPack86

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US commits to transfer advanced defence technology for 'Make in India'

India and the US on Tuesday agreed to boost their defence ties, with the latter willing to share some of its most advanced technologies with Asia’s third largest economy.

Not only does it deepen the strategic ties between the two countries, it is also seeks to counter the rapid and unpredictable rise of China and combat cross-border terrorism emanating from Pakistan.

US defence secretary James Mattis, who is on a two-day visit to India, also discussed with defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman broadening maritime cooperation in the Indo-Pacific region as well as eradicating safe havens for terrorism. Mattis is the first cabinet representative from the Trump administration to visit India since the new administration took office in January.

It comes after an endorsement by the Trump administration of the designation of India as a major defence partner by the previous Obama administration last year—signalling a continuity in US policy toward India.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

WolfPack86

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Some buzz from James Mattis Meeting (first few points)

  • Guaranteed sharing of approximately 70% components commonality between F16 Block 7F and F35s with a intended target to make it 75%.
  • This is the chief challenge as the specification of Block 7F is getting further upgraded for Indian needs and the sharing of technology for commonality parts is a challenge.
  • Rest of the technology which can be shared without any hassles is submitted by LM for due consideration which includes all present tech upto UAE block 60 and classified tech not pertaining to F35s.
  • The CFTs are getting further enhanced to reach a combat radii as needed by IAF
  • Globally F16 availability rate is around 70% (just a tad below it actually).
  • For India specifically a 75% availability rate as advised will be undertaken and a Performance based Logistics and Support deal is also being planned to meet it stringently.
  • About Investments for full fledged Line transfer (every process) from Fort Worth to Indian TASL, some suggestions include
    1. Sharing costs between two parties GOI-IAF & TASL-LM for full line transfer and the whole chain
    2. This will lead to minimum production rate of 3-4 F16s per Month from TASL
    3. Also it will showcase commitment from India and its seriousness to facilitate full transfer of the ecosystem
    4. Need to strengthen the IPR regime and the proprietary tech to certain vendors who are part of teh supply chain,
    5. In such places, a 74% stake to be held via US entity is envisioned
    6. Technology for local MIC includes -
      • On board Central Pedestral Display
      • Improved Programmable Display Generator
      • Common Color Multifunction Displays
      • CPU and core technology behind them
      • Slots kept free for more core additions which can enhance and give additional performance of the system upto 50% based on multiple new scan systems taken from F35s
      • APG-83 SABR Air cooled AESA radar with terrain following, Radar common data link and ISAR (inverse SAR)
      • APG-83 is Northrop product so can be shared completely if the commitment for India is clearly there. (including all codes and software behind)
      • Complete software codes for all hardwares onboard
      • Targeting system for A2A and A2G - whole process of hardware, software and countermeasures
      • etc
  • Mattis also stressed this whole F16 ecosystem will become global hub for all spares, upgrades and orders and USA will leave the whole F16 ecosystem with India only.
  • Mattis also stressed that owing to commonality of 70% between F16 Block7F and F35s and targeted 75%, it will lead to easier transition to F35s at a later stage.
  • Mattis also clarified that Block 7F is superior to Block 60 by a big margin owing to F35 tech. The block 52s that IAF knows inside out of Singapore AF is further behind.
  • Mattis also emphasized that PAF operated F16s is entirely different and generation behind the Block 7F. In terms of capability, the present 7F is more than twice then what Block 52 so PAF F16s are further beyond the curve.
  • Its also added by a LM representative later that A2G mode of APG 83 can scan upto 290 kms and A2A mode is roughly 180 km for a 3m2, ~120km for 1m2 based on various factors and IRST will track in the range of ~80km
  • DM NS said the same will be evaluated and considered as per the quick process planned.
[Mod edit - Do not link other fora]
 
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square

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no talk on f16 during James Mattis visit....
it was only about afganistan !!!
 

WolfPack86

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India urgently new fighters. Better order 200 F-16 and put rest of the money in Tejas MK a1 and Tejas 2. I wish that Govt should order 200 Tejas Mk a1 and 400 Tejas Mk 2.
 

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