Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[SanjeevM]

Defence Ministry to speed up fighter jets acquisition

NEW DELHI, JULY 14:


Competition between the Swedish Gripen E and American F-16 is likely to heat up soon with the Ministry of Defence planning to expedite the acquisition of warplanes for the Indian Air Force under a $25-billion deal to buy 200 aircraft.

“

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...p-fighter-jets-acquisition/article9768706.ece

I don't understand the maths here. 200 F-16 for 25 billion$. i.e. 25000 million for 200 jets. That means 1 F-16 costs $ 125 million each.

Whereas I was reading in F-35 forum that each F-35 costs approximately $75 million.

"Military math Here’s how the math works: $5.58 billion in spending to acquire 74 F-35s works out to an average price of just $75.4 million per fighter. That’s even cheaper than the $80 million unit price that was mooted last month. It’s also cheaper than the $79 million unit price that Boeing floated as the likely cost of its new Advanced Super Hornet earlier this year."
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/f-35-joint-strike-fighter.9172/page-57#post-1327699

Am I missing something here? If F-35 prices are falling, does F-16 still is lucrative?

 

[WolfPack86]

Point 1 : How about Mig 35 as the lowest cost fighter for FW bases?

Point 2: What about a scenario if Mig35 with maximum possible production from Indian line comes along as a packaged deal with PAKFA TOT signing amount Bonus?

Point 3: What about a scenario if Point 1 becomes precusor for accessing Missile Defence and AD system - S400+ other HTK components?

Point 4: What about a scenario if Super upgrade has the same radar, armaments and other commonality points as Mig 35 and packaged price of Super Upgrade contains these already?


Take a Guess :This is what is being proposed By Russia with Point 1 as counter to F16/Gripen?
Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member. I am posting link below.
http://*****************/threads/iaf-in-a-crisis.62642/page-6#post-579716

 

[Zebra]

I don't understand the maths here. 200 F-16 for 25 billion$. i.e. 25000 million for 200 jets. That means 1 F-16 costs $ 125 million each.

Whereas I was reading in F-35 forum that each F-35 costs approximately $75 million.

"Military math Here’s how the math works: $5.58 billion in spending to acquire 74 F-35s works out to an average price of just $75.4 million per fighter. That’s even cheaper than the $80 million unit price that was mooted last month. It’s also cheaper than the $79 million unit price that Boeing floated as the likely cost of its new Advanced Super Hornet earlier this year."
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/f-35-joint-strike-fighter.9172/page-57#post-1327699

Am I missing something here? If F-35 prices are falling, does F-16 still is lucrative?

To understand that, one must have a full time MoD.

Correct if I am wrong.

 

[square]

Point 1 : How about Mig 35 as the lowest cost fighter for FW bases?

Point 2: What about a scenario if Mig35 with maximum possible production from Indian line comes along as a packaged deal with PAKFA TOT signing amount Bonus?

Point 3: What about a scenario if Point 1 becomes precusor for accessing Missile Defence and AD system - S400+ other HTK components?

Point 4: What about a scenario if Super upgrade has the same radar, armaments and other commonality points as Mig 35 and packaged price of Super Upgrade contains these already?


Take a Guess :This is what is being proposed By Russia with Point 1 as counter to F16/Gripen?
Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member. I am posting link below.
http://*****************/threads/iaf-in-a-crisis.62642/page-6#post-579716

why you not putting your own point of view rather spamming /advertising some one from other forum.......or to my best guess ,are you advertising yourself here being the proxy of the poster your are reffering ...

 

[WolfPack86]

why you not putting your own point of view rather spamming /advertising some one from other forum.......or to my best guess ,are you advertising yourself here being the proxy of the poster your are reffering ...

Well i am not interested in F -16 but i want best fighter for India rafale. I will send email to PMO requesting to buy more rafales. If modi buys F 16 he will lose elections. There is no think thank in Defence Forum India. that's why I posting post of Parikrama think thank of Indian Defence Forum.

 

[WolfPack86]

I love F 16 but it is now outdated fighter jet now. Hence rafale is better aircraft currently available now.

 

[square]

Well i am not interested in F -16 but i want best fighter for India rafale. I will send email to PMO requesting to buy more rafales. If modi buys F 16 he will lose elections. There is no think thank in Defence Forum India. that's why I posting post of Parikrama think thank of Indian Defence Forum.

in india nothing is hidden , even a pencil purchase has to go though proper paper work.....

presently , there is nothing to suggest about f16 from usa or fgfa from russia....
on the other side reliance defence making huge investment in nagpur to establish a compete ecosystem for building a compete fighter aircraft and they has already done several aggrements with french companies supplying components for rafale...

govt has already makeup their mind ,......

under , mmrca we have to buy 126 , 18 in flyaway condition......modi decide otherwise , requirments are more , so buy 18+18 in flyaway condition and make 200 in india......

old saying......no smoke without fire.....you have to reach the fire ,...follow the smoke..

 

[kunal1123]

Point 1 : How about Mig 35 as the lowest cost fighter for FW bases?

Point 2: What about a scenario if Mig35 with maximum possible production from Indian line comes along as a packaged deal with PAKFA TOT signing amount Bonus?

Point 3: What about a scenario if Point 1 becomes precusor for accessing Missile Defence and AD system - S400+ other HTK components?

Point 4: What about a scenario if Super upgrade has the same radar, armaments and other commonality points as Mig 35 and packaged price of Super Upgrade contains these already?


Take a Guess :This is what is being proposed By Russia with Point 1 as counter to F16/Gripen?
Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member. I am posting link belo
w.
http://*****************/threads/iaf-in-a-crisis.62642/page-6#post-579716

Russia To Offer MiG-35 Planes At India’s Tender For Light Fighter Jets
Thursday, July 20, 2017 by Indiandefense News

The MiG-35 is Russia’s most advanced 4++ generation multipurpose fighter jet
​

ZHUKOVSKY: Russia is ready to take part in India’s tender for the supply of light fighter jets with its Mikoyan MiG-35 plane, Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev told TASS on Wednesday.

"Principally, Russia is ready to participate in future aviation tenders in India. However, as of now, we do not have information on the opening of a tender and, correspondingly, on the plane’s technical requirements set by the Indian side," he said.

The MiG-35 is Russia’s most advanced 4++ generation multipurpose fighter jet developed on the basis of the serial-produced MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29M/M2 combat aircraft.

The fighter jet features improved flight and technical characteristics, the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment and a wide arsenal of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The plane can develop a speed of 2.23 Mach and its operational radius exceeds the range of its predecessor MiG-29 by 50%.

The flight tests of MiG-35 fighter aircraft began on January 26 and the plane’s international presentation was held in the Moscow Region on the following day.

The United Aircraft Corporation announced in early February it had signed a contract with Russia’s Defense Ministry on the delivery of two such fighters in 2017-2018. According to a TASS source in the defence sector, a contract for more than 30 MiG-35 for the Defence Ministry may be signed in 2018.

Source>>

 

[square]

Principally, Russia is ready to participate in future aviation tenders in India. However, as of now, we do not have information on the opening of a tender and, correspondingly, on the plane’s technical requirements set by the Indian side," he said.

it means there is no such tender !!!!

 

[Aghore_King]

Russia To Offer MiG-35 Planes At India’s Tender For Light Fighter Jets
Thursday, July 20, 2017 by Indiandefense News

The MiG-35 is Russia’s most advanced 4++ generation multipurpose fighter jet
​

ZHUKOVSKY: Russia is ready to take part in India’s tender for the supply of light fighter jets with its Mikoyan MiG-35 plane, Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Dmitry Shugayev told TASS on Wednesday.

"Principally, Russia is ready to participate in future aviation tenders in India. However, as of now, we do not have information on the opening of a tender and, correspondingly, on the plane’s technical requirements set by the Indian side," he said.

The MiG-35 is Russia’s most advanced 4++ generation multipurpose fighter jet developed on the basis of the serial-produced MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29M/M2 combat aircraft.

The fighter jet features improved flight and technical characteristics, the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment and a wide arsenal of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. The plane can develop a speed of 2.23 Mach and its operational radius exceeds the range of its predecessor MiG-29 by 50%.

The flight tests of MiG-35 fighter aircraft began on January 26 and the plane’s international presentation was held in the Moscow Region on the following day.

The United Aircraft Corporation announced in early February it had signed a contract with Russia’s Defense Ministry on the delivery of two such fighters in 2017-2018. According to a TASS source in the defence sector, a contract for more than 30 MiG-35 for the Defence Ministry may be signed in 2018.

Source>>

MIG 35 was already rejected in mmrca tender and now navy is having problems with MIG 29 kubs , they should offer something better maybe modified MIG 35

 

[WolfPack86]

India’s single-engine fighter program, worth $12 billion, is unlikely to be “decided before 2019,” analysts and officials say, even as the Indian Air Force has decided to hold flight tests of Lockheed’s F-16 Block 70 and Sweden’s Gripen-E, the two aircraft competing in the program.
https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/

 

[Vinod DX9]

F-16 and Gripen...both being pitched to us since early 00s
And we are neglecting continuously
Then again now we are considering to add one from them
Even if I can understand why Gripen is being considered, why a Block 50/52 airframe with Block 60 avionics is being even considered?

 

[kunal1123]

F-16 and Gripen...both being pitched to us since early 00s
And we are neglecting continuously
Then again now we are considering to add one from them
Even if I can understand why Gripen is being considered, why a Block 50/52 airframe with Block 60 avionics is being even considered?

Two word "engine TOT"
:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:
.....................................................................................

 

[WolfPack86]

India won't ink a Single-Engine Fighter Jet deal before 2019
India's single-engine fighter program, worth $12 billion, is unlikely to be "decided before 2019," analysts and officials say, even as the Indian Air Force has decided to hold flight tests of Lockheed's F-16 Block 70 and Sweden's Gripen-E, the two aircraft competing in the program.

Restricted expressions of interests were sent through Indian embassies to "some overseas participants" to take part in the program in October last year to elicit responses to produce single-engine fighter aircraft in India. Lockheed Martin offered to shift the assembly line of its F-16 Block 70, and Sweden offered to build the Gripen-E aircraft in India with technology transfer.

The F-16 fighter aircraft did not come up for discussion during last month's summit talks on June 26 between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and U.S. President Donald Trump in Washington, said a Ministry of Defence official without commenting on the outcome of the talks.

However, analysts and officials are skeptical whether the program would come to an early decision. Some analysts even say the F-16 will never be bought by the Indian Air Force, or IAF.

"There isn't now even the slightest IAF interest in the F-16 Block 70 or any other variant," said Bharat Karnad, professor of national security studies at Centre for Policy Research.

When asked about the outcome of the flight trials the IAF will conduct, Karnad said, "Nothing, it will take time and delay any decision to beyond the 2019 election. Thereafter, the medium multirole combat aircraft, or MMRCA, metrics will still apply, and the F-16 will be rejected."

The F-16 and Gripen were both rejected after flight trials during the 2007 MMRCA tender, which was finally scrapped in 2014, leading to the outright purchase of France's Rafale fighter aircraft worth $8.8 billion that was inked last year.

An IAF official said that this time, only limited flight trials of the F-16 and Gripen will take place, which will be restricted to the upgraded components that were not in the 2007 MMRCA tender.

Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said, "The F-16 and Gripen fielded during the MMRCA selection did not have all the systems that the IAF would look for in single-engine fighters. AESA radars and EW systems have recently been integrated on the F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E, and they would be required to be evaluated."

"The time for evaluation would be lesser than the previous evaluation, as only two fighters would be evaluated, and the majority of the capabilities have already been tested," Singh added.

However, analysts and officials are unanimous in their view that no decision on the program is likely immediately. In addition, the program is to be built in a newly announced Strategic Partners policy, which was notified in June.

"The chances of seeing any program under this SP program in the near future are slim til the MoD sorts out key issues relating to IP, especially under an unfavorable 49 percent ownership limit for foreign vendors," said Pushan Das, a defense analyst with Observer Research Foundation.

Another IAF official said, "There could be delays based on IAF asking for more and thereby delays due to integration testing, etc."

"In my opinion, in the current scenario with home-grown light combat aircraft, or LCA, getting produced and with LCA Mark-1A and an order of 83 cleared by the government already, I do not foresee an immediate decision on any other single-engine fighter aircraft soon," the IAF official added.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/India-wont-ink-a-Single-Engine-Fighter-Jet-deal-before-2019-263292

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

HOPE THEY BUILD THIS VARIANT

That's the F-16X, supposedly a proposal to infuse F-22 tech in the platform. No way in hell LM would go out of their way to design that, where they have F-35 on sale. Even the regular Delta F-16XL or at least the DSI intake testbed too are out of the question.

 

[tharun]

Lockheed Claims that they can build 4 jets a month depending on order..............
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...th-claims-lockheed-martin-117082201366_1.html

 

[lcafanboy]

India line will build 3 to 4 F-16s every month, claims Lockheed Martin
Wednesday, August 23, 2017 By: Live Mint Source Link: CLICK HERE





Lockheed Martin, the world’s biggest defence vendor, which is pitching strongly to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) its new F-16 Block 70 fighter, told Business Standard on Tuesday that, if India chose its fighter, an Indian production line would churn out three-to-four F-16s every month.

“We want to create the capacity to build three or more aircraft per month; we could do four. It depends upon how many aircraft India needs and when it will buy those”, said Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 globally for Lockheed Martin.

Lockheed Martin Corp. could make India the global maintenance hub for its F-16 fighter jets if the country chooses them in an ongoing selection process, a top company executive said.

Lockheed has tied up with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd to bid for India’s $12-billion multi-role fighter jet deal, where it is competing with Gripen jets made by Swedish company SAAB. Days after the partnership was made public at the Paris Air Show, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had met Lockheed Martin chairman and CEO Marillyn Hewson during his visit to US late June.

Keoki Jackson, chief technology officer, Lockheed Martin said the group will build jets with Tatas if and when the deal goes through. “We would love to build F-16 line here in India, and that would, of course, be a partnership with Tatas and if that works out, it will be a huge benefit for both India and the United States in terms of broad manufacturing expertise capabilities, engineering capabilities here in India and jobs both in India and US,” Jackson told Mint in New Delhi, on Wednesday.

Jackson said there were around 3000 F-16s worldwide and India could become a hub to service them.

“The other thing to think about is that there is an installed base of 3000 F-16S around the world; so long term, if you think about the opportunities, there is MRO...because there is a large installed base we would anticipate ongoing large support logistics to sustain those activities for our fleet for many years to come,” he said. MRO stands for maintenance, repair and overhaul of aircraft.

Lockheed already has a partnership with Tatas under which it manufacturers aircraft and aerostructures in Hyderabad. These include empennage and wing boxes for C130 Hercules turboprop military transport aircraft and cabins for Sikorsky helicopters.

“It's a state-of-the- art factory; both the engineering and production quality is extremely high,” Jackson said.

At least 100 such C130 kits from India have been supplied since 2013, he added.

Deliveries of all the C130s will be completed to India by end of the year, he said, adding there were “no fresh requests for C130” from India. In 2008, India ordered six C130 aircraft from Lockheed Martin, followed by another six.

Some analysts have said the Indian deal was critical to keep the production of the legacy jet alive beyond 2020s and maintained that Gripen was ahead in technology. However, Jackson said the Block 70 version of the F-16 was the top-of-the-line aircraft.

“(It is a) decision for the India and US governments (to make) and we are ready to proceed whenever that decision would be,” he said.

Bharat Karnad, professor for national security studies at New Delhi based Centre for Policy Research said SAAB’s Gripen is far ahead in technology and is the unstated choice for the Indian Air Force.

“The Block 70 is an updated version of a 70s vintage fighter aircraft, so it is a bit like a granny dressing up for a debutante’s ball,” he said adding, “About the MRO hub and all that, well, everybody’s taking that...(statement with) a ton of salt. Recall that the original offer was to produce all orders for this aircraft from anywhere from the India source. But under Trump’s pressure, LM decided to continue producing some F-16 and spares for USAF use in order to retain jobs at the Fort Worth F-16 plant in Texas,” he added.

Karnad also said he remained unsure if India will even go ahead with this deal at all.

“Post-Modi’s visit with Trump, an evaluation has been ordered and will take years (with this assessment not available before the 2019 elections), thereby all but killing its prospects,” he said adding it may eventually not happen, “(It will go) through the motions to make the case to Washington that we are giving it careful consideration.”
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...6s-every-month,-claims-Lockheed-Martin-283838

Insane 3 to 4 F-16 per month, here we are struggling to produce 3 to 4 LCA per year.............

 

[lcafanboy]

India line will build 3 to 4 F-16s every month, claims Lockheed Martin
Wednesday, August 23, 2017 By: Live Mint Source Link: CLICK HERE





Lockheed Martin, the world’s biggest defence vendor, which is pitching strongly to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) its new F-16 Block 70 fighter, told Business Standard on Tuesday that, if India chose its fighter, an Indian production line would churn out three-to-four F-16s every month.

“We want to create the capacity to build three or more aircraft per month; we could do four. It depends upon how many aircraft India needs and when it will buy those”, said Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 globally for Lockheed Martin.

Lockheed Martin Corp. could make India the global maintenance hub for its F-16 fighter jets if the country chooses them in an ongoing selection process, a top company executive said.

Lockheed has tied up with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd to bid for India’s $12-billion multi-role fighter jet deal, where it is competing with Gripen jets made by Swedish company SAAB. Days after the partnership was made public at the Paris Air Show, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had met Lockheed Martin chairman and CEO Marillyn Hewson during his visit to US late June.

Keoki Jackson, chief technology officer, Lockheed Martin said the group will build jets with Tatas if and when the deal goes through. “We would love to build F-16 line here in India, and that would, of course, be a partnership with Tatas and if that works out, it will be a huge benefit for both India and the United States in terms of broad manufacturing expertise capabilities, engineering capabilities here in India and jobs both in India and US,” Jackson told Mint in New Delhi, on Wednesday.

Jackson said there were around 3000 F-16s worldwide and India could become a hub to service them.

“The other thing to think about is that there is an installed base of 3000 F-16S around the world; so long term, if you think about the opportunities, there is MRO...because there is a large installed base we would anticipate ongoing large support logistics to sustain those activities for our fleet for many years to come,” he said. MRO stands for maintenance, repair and overhaul of aircraft.

Lockheed already has a partnership with Tatas under which it manufacturers aircraft and aerostructures in Hyderabad. These include empennage and wing boxes for C130 Hercules turboprop military transport aircraft and cabins for Sikorsky helicopters.

“It's a state-of-the- art factory; both the engineering and production quality is extremely high,” Jackson said.

At least 100 such C130 kits from India have been supplied since 2013, he added.

Deliveries of all the C130s will be completed to India by end of the year, he said, adding there were “no fresh requests for C130” from India. In 2008, India ordered six C130 aircraft from Lockheed Martin, followed by another six.

Some analysts have said the Indian deal was critical to keep the production of the legacy jet alive beyond 2020s and maintained that Gripen was ahead in technology. However, Jackson said the Block 70 version of the F-16 was the top-of-the-line aircraft.

“(It is a) decision for the India and US governments (to make) and we are ready to proceed whenever that decision would be,” he said.

Bharat Karnad, professor for national security studies at New Delhi based Centre for Policy Research said SAAB’s Gripen is far ahead in technology and is the unstated choice for the Indian Air Force.

“The Block 70 is an updated version of a 70s vintage fighter aircraft, so it is a bit like a granny dressing up for a debutante’s ball,” he said adding, “About the MRO hub and all that, well, everybody’s taking that...(statement with) a ton of salt. Recall that the original offer was to produce all orders for this aircraft from anywhere from the India source. But under Trump’s pressure, LM decided to continue producing some F-16 and spares for USAF use in order to retain jobs at the Fort Worth F-16 plant in Texas,” he added.

Karnad also said he remained unsure if India will even go ahead with this deal at all.

“Post-Modi’s visit with Trump, an evaluation has been ordered and will take years (with this assessment not available before the 2019 elections), thereby all but killing its prospects,” he said adding it may eventually not happen, “(It will go) through the motions to make the case to Washington that we are giving it careful consideration.”
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...6s-every-month,-claims-Lockheed-Martin-283838

Insane 3 to 4 F-16 per month, here we are struggling to produce 3 to 4 LCA per year............. SHAME on HAL.........SHAME SHAME

HAL MANAGEMENT DOOB MARO SALO.............

 

[Zero-Sum-Game]

apparently these are the mid life upgrades that being offered to iaf.... basically 5 gen sensors and avionics..

 

[WolfPack86]

Lockheed Martin to Export F-16 Jets From Proposed Plant in India if it wins Single Engine fighter tender.

US Defence giant Lockheed Martin which is in talks to set up a plant in India, is closing in on an international deal for F-16 fighter planes and said that it might consider building all jets at this proposed Indian plant and then export them to various countries, a report claimed. A Reuters report stated that Lockheed is offering to make India the sole F-16 production centre, as they are shutting its F-16 production line at Forth Worth in Texas.

According to Reuters, Lockheed Martin and Sweden's Saab are in a race to supply the Indian military with at least 100 single-engine jets produced locally under the Prime Minister's 'Make in India' scheme. The government of India is reportedly set to issue a formal request to both the firms over the next few days to provide the plans to design, develop and produce combat jets in India.

The foreign aircraft maker will reportedly collaborate with an Indian firm to develop a world-class indigenous aeronautical base that India struggled to build for years. In this regard, Lockheed has decided to collaborate with Tata Advanced Systems to produce the F-16s. Saab on the other hand has not yet announced their local partner to produce the Gripen E aircraft.

Reuters quoted Randall L Howard, F-16 business development head, saying that following the shut down of the production line at Forth Worth, Texas, the new orders will be produced from a Greenville facility. "The opportunity for India is to then move all of that into India and that's what's being proposed," he said.

Initially, concerns were raised regarding the plan to relocate the Greenville production line to India, which seemed directly contradictory to US President Donald Trump's 'America First' campaign under which he pressed for companies to invest in the USA. However, the plan reportedly enjoyed the support of the US Government.

As per Howard, winning the contract with India will protect thousands of jobs at Lockheed in the US as well as among its component suppliers. They plan to begin with an assembly and slowly 'phase it in'.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal