Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Aghore_King]

presently only three fighter programs which the govt is backing.....
tejas
rafale
amca.

Bro...If that is the case then it would be the best possible option for us ....

 

[smestarz]

We do not produce Su-30 MKI, we mostly assemble it, We also conduct overhaul and we could potentially be doing it for Vietnam and Malaysia.

There are few things you miss out,

A) When we purchase Su-30 MKI, we simply wanted a plane which IAF wanted,

B) The top brass of IAF is so ignorant and visionless that they did not foresee that with A2G missiles that are available, Su-30 MKI could be an MRCA., but they limited it to Air superiority role (recently they corrected it and now Su-30 MKI has LITENING pods also.

C) F-16 is not our need, we have our own project in Tejas and with orders given by IAF., The only problem is engine. We are presently using American engine and some components off the shelf. So when you compare our own Tejas project with say Kaveri engine, and F-16 with American engine, there are more benefits for development for Tejas, because We cannot develop F-16 and we have to take permission from USA for evening using it, and there would be no limitation on Tejas.

So to reply to you, when we purchased Su-30 MKI we have for our own use, On other hand with Brahmos, since its JV. we have to sell to countries with Russian permission. But for Tejas (with an indian engine and avionics) there might be no permission required

Can we sell Su30 MKI without Russia's permission?

 

[smestarz]

MiG-29 are being upgraded now to MiG-299 SMT standards. So we are looking at another 20 years roughly so thats 2035 at least

The MIGs are going to be phased by 28 - 29. You tell me why not.

 

[WolfPack86]

MODI-TRUMP JOINT STATEMENT SKIPS REFERENCE TO F-16 DEAL
The euphoria surrounding the proposed joint venture agreement between Lockheed Martin of the US and Tata Advanced Systems of India to set up an F-16 jet production line in India is over, at least for now, since the deal wasn’t mentioned in the India-US joint statement

NEW DELHI — The joint statement issued after the first meeting between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and US President Donald Trump hasn't said a word about the deal, which is being touted as a watershed development in India-US defence cooperation, by many.

The Lockheed-Tata deal is contingent upon the Indian Air Force (IAF) selecting and buying the F-16 fighter, but Indian media sources said the government has not made any decision on the US jet, which earlier lost out to French company Dassault's Rafale fighter jets.

"Contingent upon (the) US and Indian government agreement and approval, F-16 Block 70 aircraft would be produced exclusively in India," said a Lockheed Martin statement to the BBC.

India currently requires over around 200 single-engine fighter jets to replace its aging fleet of MiG-21s and MiG-27s, which are on the verge of retirement. Meanwhile, India's own light combat aircraft (LCA), Tejas, is nowhere near being battle-ready, forcing India to look out for alternatives.

India is already using Russia's upgraded MiG29SMTs and naval version of MiG29Ks, while it is a partner in the Russian Sukhoi T-50 Pak FA stealth fighter program.

The IAF's global procurement of single-engine fighters stems from its failure to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft from Dassault, which eventually came down to 36 fighter jets in ready-to-use mode. France refused to create a production line in India for these jets.

Subsequently, a section in the Indian media has maintained that Swedish firm Saab's Gripen and F-16 are in the final race for the IAF's $12 billion defence manufacturing deal, even as there has been no official word on it.

On the contrary, defence analysts in India are aghast at the idea that India is considering a fourth-generation fighter dating back to the 1970s to replace its Soviet-era fleet.

"India a dumping ground for obsolete weapons system?" Brahma Chellaney, defence expert and professor at the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, asked on Twitter. "Lockheed Martin signs F-16 deal with TATA. Why TATA? Because they make the noisiest car?"

Another expert too questioned the logic behind the deal.
"The F-16 will add little in terms of serious technology transfer, market penetration, or denial of strategic space to Pakistan," Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, wrote in an op-ed article in Livemint.

Experts reckoned that India still faces difficulty in getting access to cutting-edge technology, except while dealing with Russia.
"Barring Russia, it is still not easy for us to get high technology from Western countries as seen during Rafale deal. It is true that the F-16 deal may not be the best deal we may get from the US.

But we cannot ignore the fact that defence procurement deals are also about more than just getting military hardware. They, more importantly, build strategic partnerships," Harsh V. Pant, Distinguished Fellow at Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi and Professor of International Relations at King's College, London, told Sputnik.

"The F-16 deal (if it materialises) with the Trump administration will be more about what India can do for the US and bringing value addition to the American economy. It is aimed at bringing India closer to the US strategic fold and not in a one-sided manner," Pant said.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/06/modi-trump-joint-statement-skips.html

 

[lcafanboy]

IAF Test Pilots give ” Thumbs Down” to both F-16 and Gripen-E
Published July 5, 2017 SOURCE: ABHOY ROY / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Recent media reports say that a Senior Test Pilots of Indian Air Force hit out at Modi government on India flirting with ideas to procure either F-16 and Gripen-E of which both had failed under MMRCA technical trials hints at discord in Indian Air Force regarding the purchase of Single-engine fighter jet tender. Unnamed Senior Test Pilot of Indian Air Force who was part of Original MMRCA technical trials where both F-16IN and Gripen NG failed miserable called F-16 as Obsolete in terms of technology and growth potential of the air frame already has reached its peak a decade back and current offer of ” Block 70 ” is just glorified Block 50/52 Air frame with Block 60 Techs. Test Pilot also confirmed that Lockheed Martin technical deficiencies highlighted by Indian Air Force in detail after MMRCA technical trials are still not been addressed yet by the OEM and Limited technical trials which IAF plans to carry out to check same technical performance shortfalls recorded in last trials will again expose this deficiency in technical parameters. The pilot also lambasted Saab’s Gripen-E and added that Gripen-E is still uncompleted aircraft and carries many prototype equipment which is still under testing stages and it will take some time before aircraft will gain full operational status while airframe limitations of the aircraft will still presists to overcome failures recorded under MMRCA technical trials. Many Defence Analysts have criticised Government for flirting with ideas to build F-16s in India when the world over F-16s are been retired due to technological limitations. Analysts have hit out at the government since any order for F-16s could purely be to create a business opportunity for certain government friendly Industrial giants in India who are making a foray in defence sector to fulfil PM Modi’s ” Make In India ” in the Defence sector. Another section of Defence Analysts has also criticized Government for ignoring Homegrown fighter aircraft like LCA-Tejas MKII and 5th Generation AMCA Projects which are still in drawing board due to lack of commitment and support shown by the present government. Purchase of F-16 or Gripen can have serious implication for India’s Tejas MKII which analysts believe could be scrapped in favor of additional orders for this jet in future.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website ,Don http://idrw.org/iaf-test-pilots-give-thumbs-down-both-to-f-16-and-gripen-e/#more-140272 .

 

[lcafanboy]

IAF Test Pilots give ” Thumbs Down” to both F-16 and Gripen-E
Published July 5, 2017 SOURCE: ABHOY ROY / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

Recent media reports say that a Senior Test Pilots of Indian Air Force hit out at Modi government on India flirting with ideas to procure either F-16 and Gripen-E of which both had failed under MMRCA technical trials hints at discord in Indian Air Force regarding the purchase of Single-engine fighter jet tender. Unnamed Senior Test Pilot of Indian Air Force who was part of Original MMRCA technical trials where both F-16IN and Gripen NG failed miserable called F-16 as Obsolete in terms of technology and growth potential of the air frame already has reached its peak a decade back and current offer of ” Block 70 ” is just glorified Block 50/52 Air frame with Block 60 Techs. Test Pilot also confirmed that Lockheed Martin technical deficiencies highlighted by Indian Air Force in detail after MMRCA technical trials are still not been addressed yet by the OEM and Limited technical trials which IAF plans to carry out to check same technical performance shortfalls recorded in last trials will again expose this deficiency in technical parameters. The pilot also lambasted Saab’s Gripen-E and added that Gripen-E is still uncompleted aircraft and carries many prototype equipment which is still under testing stages and it will take some time before aircraft will gain full operational status while airframe limitations of the aircraft will still presists to overcome failures recorded under MMRCA technical trials. Many Defence Analysts have criticised Government for flirting with ideas to build F-16s in India when the world over F-16s are been retired due to technological limitations. Analysts have hit out at the government since any order for F-16s could purely be to create a business opportunity for certain government friendly Industrial giants in India who are making a foray in defence sector to fulfil PM Modi’s ” Make In India ” in the Defence sector. Another section of Defence Analysts has also criticized Government for ignoring Homegrown fighter aircraft like LCA-Tejas MKII and 5th Generation AMCA Projects which are still in drawing board due to lack of commitment and support shown by the present government. Purchase of F-16 or Gripen can have serious implication for India’s Tejas MKII which analysts believe could be scrapped in favor of additional orders for this jet in future.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website ,Don http://idrw.org/iaf-test-pilots-give-thumbs-down-both-to-f-16-and-gripen-e/#more-140272 .

 

[pankaj nema]

The IAF only wants planes

Whether it is Rafale or FGFA or F 16 ; just get new planes

 

[Filtercoffee]

Axe these two offers to focus on our own programmes.

 

[scatterStorm]

Maybe IAF veterans are lashing at the lobbying of F16 because why would they like a jet which has been defeated by MKI in red flag exercises. From what I've heard from my pal in airforce, we kicked asses against aggressor squadrons of F16 block 50/52s in the red flag, hell even Euro fighters which are considered arch rivals of F16s.

I don't think we will have them in our arsenal. Hopefully (touchwood)

 

[WolfPack86]

Small Snippet

• IAF ppl and MOD had a fight over F16.
• In the words of the senior guys, the IAF folks gave a very interesting but damning report saying F16 is uselss for them and even Gripen E too
• They said political deals cant be something which compromises Indian security
• MOD ppl actually sat with the IAF Seniors and the guys who made this assessment report.
• MOD folks tried to make them understand that F16 is needed as we are now needing US support for China strategy and this is a part of a military pact.
• With The teen being bought, India will get access to Air Land and Sea Cooperation at par with what we have with Russia and France and USA + Israel + Japan + Australia will be added phase by phase in this new military pact
• IAF categorically contested that SE aircraft plan is not correct and if Anti China build up was needed then it should be TE aircrafts in Medium Category and for that IAF prefers Rafales.
• IAF pointed that a 300 Rafale Fleet is a nightmare for China and with upgradation planned for Rafale and assimilating custom Israeli stuff which they developed for their own Adirs, this 300 or a 15-18+ sqd is the biggest deterrent.
• They also pointed that MII for Rafale should have been expedited and this 90 odd numbers for SE should have been shifted to Merignac allowing 2 lines (one from France and one from India DRAL) to meet India's requirements on urgent basis.
• IAF also pointed extreme disappointment that government has talked about Rafale price and also via media doing this price of F16/Gripen being cheap talks when they know that packaged cost for a similar deal as Rafale is in the same zone for F16/Gripen.
• IAF folks also said that money being limited is a blatant lie when in a damning observation , IAF categorically said political class in every state is giving farm loan waivers for approx 50K crores per state. There Political parties talk about national interest but it is more of a political interest (aka vote bank) but Jet plane purchase for national security is obviously not so important.
• IAF made it clear both SE contenders dont meet its requirements. On top IPR and tech sharing for both the jets is limited .
• As compared to Rafale deal, LM is not sharing anything critical other than saying they will model LCA Mk2 as similar from inside as F16 but that itself is not what we need.
• In case of Gripen, Saab IPR shared with few nations have been declined for sharing with India. This especially from a friendly country has spooked IAF of the possible reasons and complexities with what MOD promised and what in reality being offered.
• In the end IAF did not agree and budge to MOD requesting again and again for endorsing F16s.
• IAF were clear that they wont take Gripen E or F16 or if GOI/MOD wants a political deal then they have to also expedite and order more Rafales with the numbers as IAF wants.
• Rafale TOT as per IAF is coming in batches to be made in MIHAN or DRAL plant . SO this whole mis representation of no TOT and price being high should be clarified by MOD and also instead of playing around focus on a concrete plan for a proper modernization.
• IAF also said Navy wants Rafale so why any other aircraft like F16 or Gripen E is even thought or entertained especially when internally Navy clarified that they want only TE fighters for their air wing. rather a single MII would have given India more bargaining scope for CNC people.
• It was pointed by IAF that why not push Tejas induction more so that IAF can start giving orders like 83 odd or even 100 every 5 years and meet the orders within 5 years. IAF is extremely pleased with the progress report of Tejas and the way now program is finally running professionally. Thus they pointed that for SE and mission needs Tejas is enough.
• It was pointed here that MOD officials talk about technicalities of Tejas being inferior to F16 Block 70+ /Gripen E latest blocks offerings but superior to F16 block 52/ Gripen C but these chosen SE still dont meet any requirement at all.
• Bcz with the packaged cost these manufacturers end up saying they can do Rafale duties to win the order and they cannot for sure as per internal assessment.
• This together with conventional restrictions and limitations is not desired at all.
• The meeting remained inconclusive as IAF did not budge at all and did not agree for F16/Gripen.
• MOD folks will take a internal decision within next 7 days whether to finally push this political purchase or not. Post which the file papers will move for the finalization.
• More or less IAF endorsement will come with the price of Rafale fleet numbers being beefed up and as desired by the forces.
• Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member talking about Indian Air Force senior officials against inducting F 16 in air force and pushing more tejas induction. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-157#post-576063

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Small Snippet

• IAF ppl and MOD had a fight over F16.
• In the words of the senior guys, the IAF folks gave a very interesting but damning report saying F16 is uselss for them and even Gripen E too
• They said political deals cant be something which compromises Indian security
• MOD ppl actually sat with the IAF Seniors and the guys who made this assessment report.
• MOD folks tried to make them understand that F16 is needed as we are now needing US support for China strategy and this is a part of a military pact.
• With The teen being bought, India will get access to Air Land and Sea Cooperation at par with what we have with Russia and France and USA + Israel + Japan + Australia will be added phase by phase in this new military pact
• IAF categorically contested that SE aircraft plan is not correct and if Anti China build up was needed then it should be TE aircrafts in Medium Category and for that IAF prefers Rafales.
• IAF pointed that a 300 Rafale Fleet is a nightmare for China and with upgradation planned for Rafale and assimilating custom Israeli stuff which they developed for their own Adirs, this 300 or a 15-18+ sqd is the biggest deterrent.
• They also pointed that MII for Rafale should have been expedited and this 90 odd numbers for SE should have been shifted to Merignac allowing 2 lines (one from France and one from India DRAL) to meet India's requirements on urgent basis.
• IAF also pointed extreme disappointment that government has talked about Rafale price and also via media doing this price of F16/Gripen being cheap talks when they know that packaged cost for a similar deal as Rafale is in the same zone for F16/Gripen.
• IAF folks also said that money being limited is a blatant lie when in a damning observation , IAF categorically said political class in every state is giving farm loan waivers for approx 50K crores per state. There Political parties talk about national interest but it is more of a political interest (aka vote bank) but Jet plane purchase for national security is obviously not so important.
• IAF made it clear both SE contenders dont meet its requirements. On top IPR and tech sharing for both the jets is limited .
• As compared to Rafale deal, LM is not sharing anything critical other than saying they will model LCA Mk2 as similar from inside as F16 but that itself is not what we need.
• In case of Gripen, Saab IPR shared with few nations have been declined for sharing with India. This especially from a friendly country has spooked IAF of the possible reasons and complexities with what MOD promised and what in reality being offered.
• In the end IAF did not agree and budge to MOD requesting again and again for endorsing F16s.
• IAF were clear that they wont take Gripen E or F16 or if GOI/MOD wants a political deal then they have to also expedite and order more Rafales with the numbers as IAF wants.
• Rafale TOT as per IAF is coming in batches to be made in MIHAN or DRAL plant . SO this whole mis representation of no TOT and price being high should be clarified by MOD and also instead of playing around focus on a concrete plan for a proper modernization.
• IAF also said Navy wants Rafale so why any other aircraft like F16 or Gripen E is even thought or entertained especially when internally Navy clarified that they want only TE fighters for their air wing. rather a single MII would have given India more bargaining scope for CNC people.
• It was pointed by IAF that why not push Tejas induction more so that IAF can start giving orders like 83 odd or even 100 every 5 years and meet the orders within 5 years. IAF is extremely pleased with the progress report of Tejas and the way now program is finally running professionally. Thus they pointed that for SE and mission needs Tejas is enough.
• It was pointed here that MOD officials talk about technicalities of Tejas being inferior to F16 Block 70+ /Gripen E latest blocks offerings but superior to F16 block 52/ Gripen C but these chosen SE still dont meet any requirement at all.
• Bcz with the packaged cost these manufacturers end up saying they can do Rafale duties to win the order and they cannot for sure as per internal assessment.
• This together with conventional restrictions and limitations is not desired at all.
• The meeting remained inconclusive as IAF did not budge at all and did not agree for F16/Gripen.
• MOD folks will take a internal decision within next 7 days whether to finally push this political purchase or not. Post which the file papers will move for the finalization.
• More or less IAF endorsement will come with the price of Rafale fleet numbers being beefed up and as desired by the forces.
• Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member talking about Indian Air Force senior officials against inducting F 16 in air force and pushing more tejas induction. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-157#post-576063

Parikrama always pushes for the Rafale.I have no idea how genuine his info is.Not saying its not.

 

[TheHurtLocker]

• It was pointed by IAF that why not push Tejas induction more so that IAF can start giving orders like 83 odd or even 100 every 5 years and meet the orders within 5 years. IAF is extremely pleased with the progress report of Tejas and the way now program is finally running professionally. Thus they pointed that for SE and mission needs Tejas is enough.
• It was pointed here that MOD officials talk about technicalities of Tejas being inferior to F16 Block 70+ /Gripen E latest blocks offerings but superior to F16 block 52/ Gripen C but these chosen SE still dont meet any requirement at all.

I know it's an unverified rumour at best, but for someone who's seen the Tejas for more than a dozen years flying into the bright blue sky, this is a happy rumour.
If the VayuSena is 100% on board and Anti-LCA folk in the VayuSena like Matheeswaran are now with the Ambani house of crap, I see a wonderful and illustrious future for Tejas and Team LCA.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Small Snippet

• IAF ppl and MOD had a fight over F16.
• In the words of the senior guys, the IAF folks gave a very interesting but damning report saying F16 is uselss for them and even Gripen E too
• They said political deals cant be something which compromises Indian security
• MOD ppl actually sat with the IAF Seniors and the guys who made this assessment report.
• MOD folks tried to make them understand that F16 is needed as we are now needing US support for China strategy and this is a part of a military pact.
• With The teen being bought, India will get access to Air Land and Sea Cooperation at par with what we have with Russia and France and USA + Israel + Japan + Australia will be added phase by phase in this new military pact
• IAF categorically contested that SE aircraft plan is not correct and if Anti China build up was needed then it should be TE aircrafts in Medium Category and for that IAF prefers Rafales.
• IAF pointed that a 300 Rafale Fleet is a nightmare for China and with upgradation planned for Rafale and assimilating custom Israeli stuff which they developed for their own Adirs, this 300 or a 15-18+ sqd is the biggest deterrent.
• They also pointed that MII for Rafale should have been expedited and this 90 odd numbers for SE should have been shifted to Merignac allowing 2 lines (one from France and one from India DRAL) to meet India's requirements on urgent basis.
• IAF also pointed extreme disappointment that government has talked about Rafale price and also via media doing this price of F16/Gripen being cheap talks when they know that packaged cost for a similar deal as Rafale is in the same zone for F16/Gripen.
• IAF folks also said that money being limited is a blatant lie when in a damning observation , IAF categorically said political class in every state is giving farm loan waivers for approx 50K crores per state. There Political parties talk about national interest but it is more of a political interest (aka vote bank) but Jet plane purchase for national security is obviously not so important.
• IAF made it clear both SE contenders dont meet its requirements. On top IPR and tech sharing for both the jets is limited .
• As compared to Rafale deal, LM is not sharing anything critical other than saying they will model LCA Mk2 as similar from inside as F16 but that itself is not what we need.
• In case of Gripen, Saab IPR shared with few nations have been declined for sharing with India. This especially from a friendly country has spooked IAF of the possible reasons and complexities with what MOD promised and what in reality being offered.
• In the end IAF did not agree and budge to MOD requesting again and again for endorsing F16s.
• IAF were clear that they wont take Gripen E or F16 or if GOI/MOD wants a political deal then they have to also expedite and order more Rafales with the numbers as IAF wants.
• Rafale TOT as per IAF is coming in batches to be made in MIHAN or DRAL plant . SO this whole mis representation of no TOT and price being high should be clarified by MOD and also instead of playing around focus on a concrete plan for a proper modernization.
• IAF also said Navy wants Rafale so why any other aircraft like F16 or Gripen E is even thought or entertained especially when internally Navy clarified that they want only TE fighters for their air wing. rather a single MII would have given India more bargaining scope for CNC people.
• It was pointed by IAF that why not push Tejas induction more so that IAF can start giving orders like 83 odd or even 100 every 5 years and meet the orders within 5 years. IAF is extremely pleased with the progress report of Tejas and the way now program is finally running professionally. Thus they pointed that for SE and mission needs Tejas is enough.
• It was pointed here that MOD officials talk about technicalities of Tejas being inferior to F16 Block 70+ /Gripen E latest blocks offerings but superior to F16 block 52/ Gripen C but these chosen SE still dont meet any requirement at all.
• Bcz with the packaged cost these manufacturers end up saying they can do Rafale duties to win the order and they cannot for sure as per internal assessment.
• This together with conventional restrictions and limitations is not desired at all.
• The meeting remained inconclusive as IAF did not budge at all and did not agree for F16/Gripen.
• MOD folks will take a internal decision within next 7 days whether to finally push this political purchase or not. Post which the file papers will move for the finalization.
• More or less IAF endorsement will come with the price of Rafale fleet numbers being beefed up and as desired by the forces.
• Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member talking about Indian Air Force senior officials against inducting F 16 in air force and pushing more tejas induction. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-157#post-576063

4 +1Rafale squadrons will calm their nerves while they countinue with the Tejas programme.

 

[WolfPack86]

Source based News

• Today there is another round of meeting between IAF and MOD on SE fighters
• MOD will meet private sector people for taking feedbacks and affirmation.
• These feedback and affirmation is towards the issue cited in IAF Damning report against SE fighters of choice - F16 Block 70+ and Gripen E
• Few of the problems cited by IAF in their reports are as under

1. Air-frame as of today and possible refinement in future
2. Un stable nature of airframe in low altitude and high altitude missions
3. Handling in mission load configs and over reliance on system to auto correct while bleeding energy and increasing risk of take down
4. Electro Magnectic Compatibility and Interference Generation - Emission issues, high susceptibility and negligible immunity inspite of on paper solutions saying otherwise.
5. Safety Reporting System showing limited system onboard sensing
6. Size of radar offered thereby limiting the tracking zone severely (atm ~ 50-60% of what is offered by Rafale RBE2 AESA in both SEs , exact numbers cant be revealed in public).
7. BVR capability is severely limited by Radar Range, power and most importantly for mid course updates for BVR missiles like AIM and Meteor.
8. High vulnerability to hacking and very low grade / absent Anti hack suit
9. Mission loads cited with A2A carrying 4+ BVR under standard conditions where maximum AD environment is present and thus impractical.
10. Mission loads cited with A2G mission packs under standard conditions where maximum AD environment present and thus impractical.
11. Both A2A and A2G missions severely limits G performance due to energy bleed, handling issues, airframe problems, EMI susceptibility and there by Mission Survivability decreases severely in emerging environments.
12. Mission success rates are compromised and there will be a loss towards sustaining a hi tempo engagement due to attrition very quickly and which will in turn reduce overall war fighting time frame.

• In case of F16, MOD is now trying with the private sector and their American counterparts to handle something about the chief issues cited above by IAF.
• IAF also mentioned that these points are applicable for Gripen E as well based on presentation and cross questioning done by IAF panel to SAAB officials.
• IAF will give a positive review and agreement only when these points are addressed and the systems are more or less controlled by an Indian Entity.
• IAF cited how all these factors are part of the agreement to be under DRAL control and Indian Rafales are suitably "modified" than vanilla F3R options applicable to France.
• Point to be noted that IAF pointers are tough to comply and if they are complied, we will have access of unprecedented level at par with Rafale Deal.
• MOD people are perplexed as LM folks tried hard to dissuade these points from discussion and SAAB simply asked for more time to come back and revert after discussing internally how to meet IAF requirements (in IAF words, SAAB does not have a clue what to amend and LM knows partying this much tech means LM has to walk the talk like Dassault..)
• Note: Parikrama a Indian defence Forum member talking about another round of meeting between MOD people and IAF officers regarding F-16 Upgrade including airframe changes. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...ircraft-news-and-possibilities.56222/page-170

 

[WolfPack86]

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...ents/F-16_Block_70_Executive_Summary_2017.pdf
I posted F 16 Block 70 pdf file above.

 

[square]

Note: Parikrama a Indian defence Forum member talking about

please note that the poster you are quoting make huge claims, before the modi visit to US, may be to get attention.........people even climb on electric poles for that......


anything that donot fit the logic going to garbage......

presently GOI only supporting three fighter aircraft program ...
tejas
rafale
amca.

 

[Sam Biswas]

I believe main opposition from IAF and MOD against F-16 is simply due to the fact that any deal with LMT will be strictly business and there will be no bribe whatsoever. There will be complete manufacturing on Indian soil and large tech transfer which India never received for any fighter jet from France or Russia. This deal will also pave the way for acquiring fifth gen technology from LMT. Neither France nor Russia have such technology at the present time. India must pay for developing the technology with either France or Russia. It is baffling to see India will pass on the opportunity to bring Lockheed manufacturing to India and learn from it by ordering only 100 jets for few billion dollars. It is only possible with India and Indians.

 

[asianobserve]

I believe main opposition from IAF and MOD against F-16 is simply due to the fact that any deal with LMT will be strictly business and there will be no bribe whatsoever. There will be complete manufacturing on Indian soil and large tech transfer which India never received for any fighter jet from France or Russia. This deal will also pave the way for acquiring fifth gen technology from LMT. Neither France nor Russia have such technology at the present time. India must pay for developing the technology with either France or Russia. It is baffling to see India will pass on the opportunity to bring Lockheed manufacturing to India and learn from it by ordering only 100 jets for few billion dollars. It is only possible with India and Indians.

I really like the F-16 since I watched the "Iron Eagle" movies. They have excellent combat record and would definitely trash out the equivalent Russian offerings.

But in fairness to the IAF, I think there might be some genuine concern regarding the F-16. Because of the use of the platform by the Pakistanis that aircraft may already be compromised as against the Chinese. Knowing the Pakistanis, they might have already briefed the Chinese in dept on the characterstics and flaws of F-16s. But then again, at the end of the day it's not only the platform that wins battles, it is the man flying it as much as much as the platform that wins a battle.

 

[lcafanboy]

Defence Ministry to speed up fighter jets acquisition

NEW DELHI, JULY 14:


Competition between the Swedish Gripen E and American F-16 is likely to heat up soon with the Ministry of Defence planning to expedite the acquisition of warplanes for the Indian Air Force under a $25-billion deal to buy 200 aircraft.

“The government is now planning to expedite the procurement of fighter jets as the Indian Air Force is facing a precarious situation,” a top official told BusinessLine requesting anonymity.

The decision to expedite the procurement process has been taken after India’s security situation has come under serious threat, especially under present circumstances when it is facing almost a month-long military standoff with China, according to the official.

In October last, , the Indian Air Force had floated a request for information (RFI) to leading aerospace players globally to come up with their offers. Subsequently, the Defence Ministry narrowed down its choice to SAAB’s Gripen E and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70, sources said.

But, the government has not issued a tender placing an order to purchase these planes formally.

However, it seems that the government might finally press the pedal to fasten its acquisition under the ‘Strategic Partnership’ (SP) policy.

But, according to sources, the Defence Ministry is in a “fix” as far as selecting the jets are concerned. This is because both SAAB and Lockheed Martin have sweetened their offers under the government’s ‘Make in India’ programme. “Gripen E may be more attractive price wise. But the selection should be done based on which aircraft gives us more strategic reach,” said Former Air Chief Marshall AY Tipnis.

SAAB has presented a proposal to the government wherein it has given comprehensive plans for ‘Make in India.’ It may be partnering with Adani although that decision rests on which Indian partner gets selected as the SP for the project.

On the other hand, Lockheed Martin has already announced its partnership with the Tatas to shift their entire assembly line here from US.

The Indian Air Force, which is increasingly facing a depleting fleet, currently has 30 squadrons out of the 42 required for guarding the skies and protecting borders. This is the lowest the Air Force has ever faced in the last one decade.

Each squadron consists of 18 aircraft. Besides, 11 squadrons consisting the MiG-21s are looking at retirement, and this will pose additional challenge to the IAF. Even after the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters from France’s Dassault Aviation, the Air Force is short of around 90 fighter planes.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...p-fighter-jets-acquisition/article9768706.ece

 

[WolfPack86]

Well basically a frontline American hardware sends two msgs - one our belief in them and second it showcases the strength of the relationship.

If i have the option, i would rather advocate naval ships. I dare say instead of $15 Bn planned for 90 Jets by MOD under MII, i would rather advocate two things here

1. Use $ 5 Bn and set up a line for LCA under pvt sector and order first batch of jets under a targeted purchase order of say 100-150. This helps us have two lines - one at HAL capable of say 16 Jets a year and a pvt sector having another 16/year capacity. This helps address the shortfall quickly and gives a big boost to local MIC. This is inspite of all teh hassles in thsi project.
2. Use $ 10 Bn and purchase 10-15-20 Ships from USA Shipyards and build them in flat 3-5 years. These 10+ ships armed to the teeth with LR SAMS (Barak 8 and Barak 8 ER) and some new LACMs and Anti Ship Missiles will be an awesome addition. Arm them with ASW capability and they go a long way for our CBGs as well.

There is no precondition of F16 procurement.

The only place F16 is made pre condition when we wanted F35 instead of F16 and USA /LM clearly said we have to take F16 first and later get F35.

As of now no prototypes are envisioned due to Item 30 test being pending and requisite Flight hours of testing pending. Assuming it does 1200 flight hours with I-30 new engine it will attain IOC with this new engine and 2000 flight hours for FOC as per standard conditions. If a waiver is given, then it will be an Indian IAF/MOD joint call but generally i do believe they will wait for at least 1200 hours of new flight time.

Since we had a issue with our MKI engines, i wont be surprised if IAF insists on 2000 hours flight hours as well to cross check everything.

Thus i dont see the 3 PMF protos arriving so soon.

Certain avionics needs a further improvement as required by IAF. Russian solutions are robust but not everything meet western standards.. IAF after using Israeli and french avionics know these needs to be put from Day 1 so these customizations are part of FGFA.

Down rating depends upon whether we are paying for accessing that technology or not. We might not pay for few since we already know we are going to procure off the shelf solutions and thus they may come at lower standard than typical PAKFA birds.
Note: Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member. I am posting link below
http://*****************/threads/iaf-in-a-crisis.62642/page-3#post-578935