Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Kunal Biswas]

Their are no F-16 buying, This all media fuss was created by lockheed ..

 

[airtel]

No F-16 deal during Modi’s visit to US

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th Jun 17

There will be no announcement of the sale of F-16 fighters to the Indian Air Force, or even of Indian interest in the F-16, during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s official visit to Washington DC on Sunday and Monday.
Contrary to widespread media speculation about an impending announcement of a purchase by India of F-16 Block 70 fighters, and the transfer to India of the integration line in Fort Worth, Texas, New Delhi has told Washington its decision would follow a careful selection procedure, say reliable government sources.

New Delhi has even turned down Washington’s proposal to mention the possible “Make in India” of F-16 fighters in the joint statement that will follow Modi’s meeting on Monday with President Donald Trump in the US capital.

“We are not expecting any announcements [related to the sale of F-16s] in the next six months”, says an official who is aware of US-India negotiations.

Officials in both capitals understand that New Delhi is reluctant to commit itself to either side of a competitive procurement for single-engine fighters, which is still at a preliminary stage. Last October, the Indian Air Force (IAF) sent out a Request for Information (RFI) to global aerospace manufacturers, but has not yet followed that up with a formal tender.

Senior officials in New Delhi indicate that, besides the F-16 Block 70 offered by Lockheed Martin, Saab of Sweden has offered India its new Gripen E fighter, which made its debut flight on June 15.

Fuelling speculation over Saab’s continued relevance in the fighter procurement, Modi phoned up his Swedish counterpart, Stefan Lofven on Wednesday morning. Following what he lauded as a “good discussion”, Modi tweeted: “I deeply appreciate Sweden’s support for Make in India.”

Lockheed Martin has waged an aggressive, American style campaign to push the F-16 -- employing media briefings, sponsoring think tank papers and, at the ongoing Paris Air Show, announcing a joint venture with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) to build the F-16 in India on an integration line transferred from Forth Worth, Texas.

At the Paris Air Show on June 20, Lockheed Martin’s vice president, Orlando Carvalho, told DefenseNews that the Trump administration, notwithstanding its commitment to keeping jobs in America, was not opposed to transferring F-16 production to India. Carvalho stated: “We’ve briefed various members of the administration on the program, on what that program would mean for the United States and what it means for India, and throughout all of the briefings and discussions that we’ve done, we haven’t seen any resistance to the program by the administration.”

A key reason for this is that Lockheed Martin does not envisage transferring more than a few hundred jobs to India, of workers involved in final assembly of the F-16 at Fort Worth. Meanwhile, some 6,000 American jobs connected with producing assemblies and sub-assemblies for the F-16 would get a lease of life. Without an Indian order, these jobs would be lost, since there are no other buyers for the F-16.

While Lockheed Martin is pitching to India the opportunity to build F-16s for all future purchases worldwide, DefenseNews quotes Heidi Grant, deputy under secretary of the US Air Force, as stating that interest from potential F-16 buyers was directed mainly towards the used F-16s of countries that were upgrading their fleet to the F-35 Lightning II.

If no new buyer emerges for the F-16, a line transferred from Texas to India would have to shut down after building India’s requirement.

While Lockheed Martin has planned to transfer its existing line to India, Saab has offered to set up a brand new line, while its existing line in Linkoping, Sweden, continues to build the Gripen E for the Swedish and Brazilian air forces.

Saab has sweetened its offer by undertaking to help India in developing and manufacturing the Tejas Mark 1A – an improved version of the current indigenous fighter – and also helping in the development of India’s planned next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

India’s proposed procurement of single-engine fighters stems from the failure of a decade-long competitive acquisition process for 126 medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). That resulted only in an $8.85 billion agreement with French company, Dassault, for 36 Rafale fighters, leaving a shortfall of at least 90 fighters, and up to 200 if one took into account the IAF’s fast-depleting fleet of vintage Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters.


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/

 

[sbm]

Their are no F-16 buying, This all media fuss was created by lockheed ..

Kunal, I hate to say it, it is being considered. Not saying it's a sure thing but SAAB is confused in its offer. Perhaps best bet is a JV with ADA/HAL for Tejas Mk.2?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

But the dear 'Col' saab, Who is a pro-american is saying otherwise ..

F-16 was rejected before, I see no reason for it to come back, We don`t need to JV with anyone we can just do things as we are doing now ..

Kunal, I hate to say it, it is being considered. Not saying it's a sure thing but SAAB is confused in its offer. Perhaps best bet is a JV with ADA/HAL for Tejas Mk.2?

 

[busesaway]

My viewpoint on this is that:

• We should only spend money on these products if they add value to Indian scientific knowledge, which can later be used to manufacture indigenous hardware and exported to foriegn countries.
• We should not buy foriegn fighter jets if possible. We should always strongly attempt to invest in research and development projects in India first, before trying to buy hardware from western countries or other countries.

I do not think it's wise for Modi to purchase any foriegn hardware equipment right now. I think he should use the limited money that India has to invest in research and development projects which can help develop India into a more prosperous nation.

However, we should welcome any investment that sees foriegn nations spend money on Indians. I think we could become an outsourcing center for military (private military contractors) that can work in areas like pirate patrolling and policing in places like the Middle East.

 

[sbm]

But the dear 'Col' saab, Who is a pro-american is saying otherwise ..

F-16 was rejected before, I see no reason for it to come back, We don`t need to JV with anyone we can just do things as we are doing now ..

Colonel Saab is wrong this time. GOI has made a decision for a second 2nd single engine fighter via pvt sector. I actually think we need some help. The manufacturing techniques from LM would be a huge boost. Technology? Well the Block 70 has many of the avionics - esp radar of F-35 so it is a boost. I think we need a JV in aviation. There is a need to help HAL and also provide competition. However, a more logical step, a JV to produce the Rafale would be a better choice plus increased Su-30MKI production.

 

[mayfair]

Yeah a plane whose 41% of the components are imported surely is flying, but at what cost.
Tejas MK1A is something to be proud of but its still 2 years away.

60% of F-16 is NOT manufactured by Lockheed Martin, including the engine.

Of that a large proporotion comes from overseas.

 

[sbm]

Guys, Gripen or F-16, it is clear some of the commentators in the media have never read a contract. Contracts designate subcontractors as being bound by terms of the contract in respect of their respective items. LM has responsibility, once an overall agreement is made on what components and what % is to be made in India, to deal with the subcontractors. All proprietary rights remain with OEMs but that does not preclude transfer of technology or manufacturing rights.

 

[square]

No F-16 deal during Modi’s visit to US

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th Jun 17

There will be no announcement of the sale of F-16 fighters to the Indian Air Force, or even of Indian interest in the F-16, during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s official visit to Washington DC on Sunday and Monday.
Contrary to widespread media speculation about an impending announcement of a purchase by India of F-16 Block 70 fighters, and the transfer to India of the integration line in Fort Worth, Texas, New Delhi has told Washington its decision would follow a careful selection procedure, say reliable government sources.

New Delhi has even turned down Washington’s proposal to mention the possible “Make in India” of F-16 fighters in the joint statement that will follow Modi’s meeting on Monday with President Donald Trump in the US capital.

“We are not expecting any announcements [related to the sale of F-16s] in the next six months”, says an official who is aware of US-India negotiations.

Officials in both capitals understand that New Delhi is reluctant to commit itself to either side of a competitive procurement for single-engine fighters, which is still at a preliminary stage. Last October, the Indian Air Force (IAF) sent out a Request for Information (RFI) to global aerospace manufacturers, but has not yet followed that up with a formal tender.

Senior officials in New Delhi indicate that, besides the F-16 Block 70 offered by Lockheed Martin, Saab of Sweden has offered India its new Gripen E fighter, which made its debut flight on June 15.

Fuelling speculation over Saab’s continued relevance in the fighter procurement, Modi phoned up his Swedish counterpart, Stefan Lofven on Wednesday morning. Following what he lauded as a “good discussion”, Modi tweeted: “I deeply appreciate Sweden’s support for Make in India.”

Lockheed Martin has waged an aggressive, American style campaign to push the F-16 -- employing media briefings, sponsoring think tank papers and, at the ongoing Paris Air Show, announcing a joint venture with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) to build the F-16 in India on an integration line transferred from Forth Worth, Texas.

At the Paris Air Show on June 20, Lockheed Martin’s vice president, Orlando Carvalho, told DefenseNews that the Trump administration, notwithstanding its commitment to keeping jobs in America, was not opposed to transferring F-16 production to India. Carvalho stated: “We’ve briefed various members of the administration on the program, on what that program would mean for the United States and what it means for India, and throughout all of the briefings and discussions that we’ve done, we haven’t seen any resistance to the program by the administration.”

A key reason for this is that Lockheed Martin does not envisage transferring more than a few hundred jobs to India, of workers involved in final assembly of the F-16 at Fort Worth. Meanwhile, some 6,000 American jobs connected with producing assemblies and sub-assemblies for the F-16 would get a lease of life. Without an Indian order, these jobs would be lost, since there are no other buyers for the F-16.

While Lockheed Martin is pitching to India the opportunity to build F-16s for all future purchases worldwide, DefenseNews quotes Heidi Grant, deputy under secretary of the US Air Force, as stating that interest from potential F-16 buyers was directed mainly towards the used F-16s of countries that were upgrading their fleet to the F-35 Lightning II.

If no new buyer emerges for the F-16, a line transferred from Texas to India would have to shut down after building India’s requirement.

While Lockheed Martin has planned to transfer its existing line to India, Saab has offered to set up a brand new line, while its existing line in Linkoping, Sweden, continues to build the Gripen E for the Swedish and Brazilian air forces.

Saab has sweetened its offer by undertaking to help India in developing and manufacturing the Tejas Mark 1A – an improved version of the current indigenous fighter – and also helping in the development of India’s planned next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

India’s proposed procurement of single-engine fighters stems from the failure of a decade-long competitive acquisition process for 126 medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). That resulted only in an $8.85 billion agreement with French company, Dassault, for 36 Rafale fighters, leaving a shortfall of at least 90 fighters, and up to 200 if one took into account the IAF’s fast-depleting fleet of vintage Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters.


http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/

rightly so , learning from past experience , should had not announced rafale deal before complition of all negotiations at france visit....

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Now why would they transfer their production line into India if they are not expecting any orders FROM INDIA!!!

 

[square]

after the initial excitment , its becoming clear now that f16 is indeed a very unlikely happening....
1) no cost negotiation yet.
2) no frame work on offset yet.

just a agreement of intent for the final assembly...


even govt refuse to even mention the f16 in joint statement on modi's visit to US...

 

[scatterStorm]

after the initial excitment , its becoming clear now that f16 is indeed a very unlikely happening....
1) no cost negotiation yet.
2) no frame work on offset yet.

just a agreement of intent for the final assembly...


even govt refuse to even mention the f16 in joint statement on modi's visit to US...

No deal, just a terms of agreement was signed with Tata, as any foreign manufacturer has to JV with an Indian company before investing billions and making profit out of it. SInce SAAB isn't interested in make in India, and haven't yet selected a Indian company to JV with ... this deal is bust. As explained by Shiv Aroor on liveFist.

Fewwwsh, saved by the bell!

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Thats because I knew that US simply will not sell F16 to India in the 100-120mn price band range including life cycle cost which India was expecting. If we look at profit margins that large American defence companies like LM seek , its minimum in range of 500-700% which is what you see in deals with arab states. To earn that profit on 100-120mn price range, LM will need to move entire production infra to India including radar modules, sensors, engine parts. Not happening for sure. Anyways I believe we should wait for rafale price to come down and Mig 35 to emerge from ashes. Rafale /Mig 35 combo will be best for us.

 

[Hari Sud]

I think India got carried away by a minor event of signing of a letter of intent between TATA and Lockheed and Martin in Paris.

It was a general intent to give a shape to an often talked about possibilities of making F-16 in India. It may or may not have huge political backing by the Executive as well as the Legislative branches of the US government. Both of these are not fully on board yet for different reasons. Even if Modi and LM are able to convince Trump of the salient points, Legislative branch is different. They are hostile to partial allies like India receiving any high technology items from US. Later even the Executive branches may put roadblocks as, it is them who grant licenses to export, a difficult process to navigate.

In India, nobody knows whether IAF brass is fully on board. The analysts and keyboard warriors seem to favour Gripen. They prefer the untried and partially on drawing board Gripen E. Nobody knows whether the Gripen E is fit for an air battle with Chinese Su-27 and their late model partial stealth fighters or Pakistani JF-17. On paper it looks fight worthy. But nobody will know until it tangle with them. The American F-16 has proven.

Final word is from the IAF itself. They have not fully endorsed this deal enthusiastically. They may still favour the Gripen E during upcoming trials, hence negate the deal. Some changes in IAF management and for that reason all the other armed forces war material acquisition management system are overdue. Corruption aside, they have no idea, how much money we gave and what is available in the market place. There is a strong import lobby in all the forces, which tend to sabotage locally made war materials. They are very much in tune with import material propaganda and glossy brochures. The inferiority of imports has been well proven in failure of six foreign made high profile rifles. The locally made rifle won, but to sabotage this, the goal post was changed without a reason to a higher caliber.

Back to the issue, the F-16 is not a done deal.

 

[ezsasa]

I think India got carried away by a minor event of signing of a letter of intent between TATA and Lockheed and Martin in Paris.

It was a general intent to give a shape to an often talked about possibilities of making F-16 in India. It may or may not have huge political backing by the Executive as well as the Legislative branches of the US government. Both of these are not fully on board yet for different reasons. Even if Modi and LM are able to convince Trump of the salient points, Legislative branch is different. They are hostile to partial allies like India receiving any high technology items from US. Later even the Executive branches may put roadblocks as, it is them who grant licenses to export, a difficult process to navigate.

In India, nobody knows whether IAF brass is fully on board. The analysts and keyboard warriors seem to favour Gripen. They prefer the untried and partially on drawing board Gripen E. Nobody knows whether the Gripen E is fit for an air battle with Chinese Su-27 and their late model partial stealth fighters or Pakistani JF-17. On paper it looks fight worthy. But nobody will know until it tangle with them. The American F-16 has proven.

Final word is from the IAF itself. They have not fully endorsed this deal enthusiastically. They may still favour the Gripen E during upcoming trials, hence negate the deal. Some changes in IAF management and for that reason all the other armed forces war material acquisition management system are overdue. Corruption aside, they have no idea, how much money we gave and what is available in the market place. There is a strong import lobby in all the forces, which tend to sabotage locally made war materials. They are very much in tune with import material propaganda and glossy brochures. The inferiority of imports has been well proven in failure of six foreign made high profile rifles. The locally made rifle won, but to sabotage this, the goal post was changed without a reason to a higher caliber.

Back to the issue, the F-16 is not a done deal.

India didn't, Indian media(aka American lobby) did....

 

[sbm]

And the SAAB lobby is fighting back. Nobody is in India's corner.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

And the SAAB lobby is fighting back. Nobody is in India's corner.

Grippen will never happen as all its key parts are produced in UK, US, Germany. You will have to negotiate with 7 countries. The single engine tender is just to find out if US can move key parts of F16 production line to India and not just assembly. In the end it will not happen, i think we will go with more rafales.

 

[Hari Sud]

And the SAAB lobby is fighting back. Nobody is in India's corner.

If there is a fight then it is between F-16 and Gripen.

India is acting as a referee.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

Some chap close to MOD in other forum said that F16 is indeed coming to India and LM is ready to offer help in making mk2 of Tejas (improve its pseudo stealth features).
Tejas will be used in higher altitude regions whereas F16s in lower, so theres is much room for both to grow.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Some chap close to MOD in other forum said that F16 is indeed coming to India and LM is ready to offer help in making mk2 of Tejas (improve its pseudo stealth features).
Tejas will be used in higher altitude regions whereas F16s in lower, so theres is much room for both to grow.

Total snake oil, dont believe it one bit. If LM charged a piss poor Iraq 4.2bn for one squadron of F16Block 52 LCC how will it sell India 150 Block 70 for USD 15-20bn given that assembly line is only 20-40% of the cost and surely LM will not give away assembly line for free.The rest of 60-70% cost will be in dollars.