Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

Flame Thrower

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Lol Are J10,J-11,J-15,J-16,Su-30MKK ,Su-35 are are 5th generation ??? combine there Numbers there close To 800-900 in PLAAF inventory Which Serve their inventory next 3 decades

Lol Why HAL needed A absolute 4 th gen LCA then


What AMCA & FGFA for then ??
Ever heard concept of pont defense, secondary fighter costing less than 50 mill with little maintenance.... that is LCA....

Its derivatives will also become backbone of IAF...

Now coming to the rest of fighters, Su 30 MKI is more than capable to handle them....super 30 is coming as stop gap to handle J 31 or J 20. Yes, a 4++ gen fighter hoping to force a 5 gen to wwr that to in our territory assuming we were able to have robust AEW&C and sam infrastructure.

PAKFA or AMCA for deep penetration as well as take head on J 20 and J 31(in Robust AEW&C and SAM infrastructure, we need these to identify the targets) While Super SU 30 hopes for WWR, these 5th gen dogs also force for WWR but to stay in better position thus increase chaces of kill while reducing the chances of getting killed.

Now coming to Rafale, I hated this from the beginning, maybe for shortrange high enemy sam environment bombing to free AMCA and PAKFA.

Fighter bomber long range without escorts in less threat environment(entire Pak)

Long range bombing missions with escorts(mostly Super 30) and EW. So that Super 30 can mis guide incoming threats while Rafale bomb the targets.....

Would you care to explain how Vipers fit in, without cost escalations and restrictions....

I vaguely remember a news that America has installed a spying device in Turkish Vipers, which was found after the crash.
 

WARREN SS

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Ever heard concept of pont defense, secondary fighter costing less than 50 mill with little maintenance.... that is LCA....

Its derivatives will also become backbone of IAF...

Now coming to the rest of fighters, Su 30 MKI is more than capable to handle them....super 30 is coming as stop gap to handle J 31 or J 20. Yes, a 4++ gen fighter hoping to force a 5 gen to wwr that to in our territory assuming we were able to have robust AEW&C and sam infrastructure.
No LCA is no ware in picture its not even stable Operational platform yet let alone back bone You trust more on babus of DRDO who are champions of pushing deadline


Now coming to the rest of fighters, Su 30 MKI is more than capable to handle them....super 30 is coming as stop gap to handle J 31 or J 20. Yes, a 4++ gen fighter hoping to force a 5 gen to wwr that to in our territory assuming we were able to have robust AEW&C and sam infrastructure.
Not Its Numbers is Two big Two handle

Su-30 MKI is Twin Job Air Superiority SEAD/DEAD, Deep strike Lol you want this from one plat form



Fighter bomber long range without escorts in less threat environment(entire Pak)

Long range bombing missions with escorts(mostly Super 30) and EW. So that Super 30 can mis guide incoming threats while Rafale bomb the targets.....
Numbers Two short make impact
Would you care to explain how Vipers fit in, without cost escalations and restrictions....

I vaguely remember a news that America has installed a spying device in Turkish Vipers, which was found after the crash.
RFP is Launched for Single engine fighters To replace Mig-23 and Mig-27 Include cost effective and cheap ulternatives

F-16 blk 70 /Gripen E Fits in as Second Line fighter For Medium combat role Put of Load from MKI Which work horse of IAF

In Strike,CAS,SEAD/DEAD Role basically multi-role platform

Rafale comes Third that for Replacing Jaguars and Mirage-2000 And Mig-29 after 2030 in IAF inventory
Lol Spare me Kill Switch BS conspiracy
 

Butter Chicken

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PM Modi's US visit: Officials race against time to seal F-16 deal

WASHINGTON: Officials are working overtime to complete negotiations on moving the assembly line for the F-16 fighter jet to India to enable Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump to jointly make an announcement on the deal.

Well-informed sources told ET that the two sides were hammering out details to ensure India was in compliance with US law on proprietary technology.

It’s unclear at this stage if the US government is willing to part with crucial technology – a key Indian demand. Since the Pakistan also flies the F-16, it’s unclear whether India would exercise control on future orders.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/59274725.cms
 

Butter Chicken

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Why the F-16 deal isn’t a game changer

The brouhaha over the recent deal between Tata Advanced Systems Ltd and US aircraft major Lockheed Martin for the manufacture of the F-16 fighter jet in India is really just much ado about nothing. A closer examination of the production system of the F-16, which is one of the most globalized fighters ever made, shows that even if this deal if ever realized, it would at best improve the metallurgy standards of the Tatas, but add little in terms of serious technology transfer, market penetration, or denial of strategic space to Pakistan.

The wording of the deal which was signed at the Paris Air Show is very clear—it states only the “intent to partner together to meet India’s Make-in-India requirement through the establishment of an F-16 production line in India”. The most obvious takeaway from this is that the deal is not a firm agreement to manufacture the F-16 in India, but only a letter of intent to assemble the plane in India if and when the Indian Air Force (IAF) chooses that platform.

Portrayals in the commentariat (mostly through omission of the operative paragraphs of the deal) that this deal will result in the transfer of the entire F-16 production line to India, irrespective of the IAF’s choice, are plain wrong. Equally, the question is: can any manufacturer win the Indian single-engine aircraft contest without ensuring local production? The answer is a resounding no. So, is this agreement a big deal at all? Yes, but for a different set of reasons.

The F-16 is one of the most remarkable fighters of the last century. When it started out, it was a triumph of globalization—sourcing parts from across the width and breadth of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) and other major non-Nato US allies.

The brilliance of this was that even though it started off as a US national programme, it effectively became the national fighter of a cluster of five northern European countries, of Turkey, Israel and South Korea—with each cluster heavily buying into the production and supply chains. Each of the companies buying in benefitted from the massive economies of scale in a production run of over 4,600 units as well as from being able to innovate follow-on sub-systems that were incorporated into the several upgrades that the F-16 has seen. In effect, what the F-16 did was to spawn a global production and supply chain of sub-systems manufacturers, that was highly innovative but still flexible enough to be highly adaptive and competitive.

The downside of this, for India, is that by some estimates, less than 40% of the F-16 is actually Lockheed technology. The remaining 60% is proprietary technology owned by hundreds of sub-systems manufacturers spread across the globe. This means that about 60% of the F-16 technology remains unavailable to India unless its signs deals with each of the hundreds and possibly thousands of sub-component manufacturers, some of whom are based in countries like Turkey that are less than enthusiastic about India.

The F-16 engine, for example, belongs to another US company: General Electric. Its core crystal-blade technology is off limits to even the closest US allies. Also, given the slow growth of new engines globally and considering that India’s stated aim is to become a competitor, it hardly suits GE’s business interests to transfer such technology to India.

There are other problems as well. For example, all F-16 sensors and datalinks come under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) which restricts the technology of US crown jewels from being given to other countries. This could be anywhere between 10-20% of the total F-16 technology, but it is this 10% that holds the key to 90% of the combat effectiveness of the F-16 platform.

Take for instance the Link-16 data system. It is a small, ugly set of boxes, but it is this which has ensured that the F-16 has been able to shoot down every Eastern Bloc (Russia and China) fighter jet it has encountered. This system increases the situational awareness of the pilot and has been key to the supremacy of Western electronics, which have decisively trumped an Eastern focus on kinetics.

In short, while the GE engine is an important component of the F-16’s combat effectiveness, the Link-16 is the real war winner, and neither are on offer to India—except for assembly purposes.

One of the most egregious compromises with the truth as far as the F-16 India saga goes is that purchasing the plane will mean India can effectively cripple the Pakistani F-16 fleet by controlling the supply of spare parts. The F-16 block 70 being sold to India is a vastly different beast from the F-16 block 50 sold to Pakistan. This means that the supplier chain India will get will be different from the supplier chain that Pakistan has access to. Indeed, the globalized supplier and manufacturer chain means that Pakistan’s tap can never be turned off.

That said, make no mistake: the F-16 is a brilliant plane. Yes, it is at the end of its life cycle but India, which isn’t as technologically advanced as the US, should be able to easily absorb whatever technology it gets from the deal. However, prospects for further external sale and secondary maintenance contracts are non-existent given that the F-16 best exemplifies an anti-monopoly product. In the end, India gets a superb fighter and a few thousand jobs but nothing more—not a monopoly, not a market, not innovation, not cutting-edge war-winning technology and, certainly, not “strategic autonomy”.

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/Xj7srxgr7o2cL9k0Qv58lI/Why-the-F16-deal-isnt-a-game-changer.html
 

mayfair

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A very confused article. Rightly points out that as many of us suspected, the so-called JV will only happen should IAF commit to at least 100 of these birds. In other words, if we do not go for this plane, no new TATA "assembly line". Also as the author points out we are unlilely to get any maintenance contracts since sub-systems are unlikely to be manufactured here.

It also points out that there's very little chance of important tech coming to us- radar, engines, data links etc.

Then the author says that we should be able to master whatever we get.

To saala milega kya aur master karega kya? (What the eff are we going to master?)

The tech we need is not coming to us, the rest we have already mastered or are close to mastering with LCA.

Unless the plan is to use this "assembly line" for F-35s in the future, I cannot see what the powers-that-be are seeing in this deal.
 

square

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A very confused article. Rightly points out that as many of us suspected, the so-called JV will only happen should IAF commit to at least 100 of these birds. In other words, if we do not go for this plane, no new TATA "assembly line". Also as the author points out we are unlilely to get any maintenance contracts since sub-systems are unlikely to be manufactured here.

It also points out that there's very little chance of important tech coming to us- radar, engines, data links etc.

Then the author says that we should be able to master whatever we get.

To saala milega kya aur master karega kya? (What the eff are we going to master?)

The tech we need is not coming to us, the rest we have already mastered or are close to mastering with LCA.

Unless the plan is to use this "assembly line" for F-35s in the future, I cannot see what the powers-that-be are seeing in this deal.
these type of articles / blogs will keep coming......
when we look at this deal , we should campare this deal in the contest of what others are offering ....
 
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mayfair

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I am looking at this deal in the context of pushing ahead with Tejas production. Every bit of information that is coming out, seems to reinforce the belief that it would be much smarter and wiser to focus these efforts into speeding up Tejas production.

If we have to import radar, engines, weapons systems not to mention a host of sub-system and components from registered vendors around the world, aren't we better off doing so for our home grown product compared to phoren maal?
 

pankaj nema

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I am looking at this deal in the context of pushing ahead with Tejas production. Every bit of information that is coming out, seems to reinforce the belief that it would be much smarter and wiser to focus these efforts into speeding up Tejas production.

If we have to import radar, engines, weapons systems not to mention a host of sub-system and components from registered vendors around the world, aren't we better off doing so for our home grown product compared to phoren maal?
Has there been any news about LCA Mk 1 A which was promised in 2018

The project was cleared in 2015

DRDO is still struggling with LCA Mk 1 FOC

Do we want IAF to have any planes or we will tell our enemies
" wait we are Not ready yet "

Our Mig 21 and Mig 27 have to be replaced in Five years time

What will we do then ; where are the numbers for a two front situation
 

mayfair

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You think even if we set up this pipeline, we'll have enough planes in the next five years? If it was just about planes, we can always go for more Rafales and more MKIs to fill up squadron numbers.
 

Tarun Kumar

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I have no problem with buying more aircrafts to fill in squadron numbers but someone please answer the following points:
1) Will cost of F16 with spares etc be half the cost of rafale i.e 100-120mn per plane?
2) Will we get the source codes or partial source codes?
3) Will Uncle Sam link it with political compromises eg India Pak issues to settle afghanistan. US is known to link arms sales with political objectives.?
4) Will at least some radar and engine repairs be done in India?
5) Will US help us in AMCA?
Frankly even GOI does not answers to these questions so its best we do not hurry with this deal as an excuse to fill up squadron numbers. 2-4 squadrons of Su 30MKI should be immediately ordered. Mig 35 is always an option. In the meantime can someone please give a tight slap to the DRO/DPSU/OFB engineers for me for letting our country down once again.
 

lcafanboy

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http://idrw.org/pm-modis-us-visit-officials-race-against-time-to-seal-f-16-deal/#more-139004
PM Modi’s US visit: Officials race against time to seal F-16 deal
Published June 23, 2017 SOURCE: ET



Officials are working overtime to complete negotiations on moving the assembly line for the F-16 fighter jet to India to enable Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump to jointly make an announcement on the deal. While there are still too many gaps to be filled, officials are trying to finalise at least the framework before Modi travels to Washington on Saturday. Well-informed sources told ET that the two sides were hammering out details to ensure India was in compliance with US law on proprietary technology. The information could not be officially confirmed as both sides are keeping a tight lid on the substance of Modi’s visit. US laws governing sale of sophisticated military technology are extremely intricate with overlapping jurisdictions by the Defence, State and Commerce departments. India too has hesitations about dependence on the US, especially at a time of flux in the international system. The announcement, if it comes when Modi meets Trump on June 26 at the White House, would be a good example of India’s designation by the Obama Administration as a “major defence partner,” especially if the deal is studded with significant transfers of technology. It would show that “Make in India” and “America First” can meet somewhere in the middle. In 2015, Modi made a surprise announcement while on a visit to France in 2015 to buy 36 “ready to fly” Rafale aircraft after negotiations with Dassault for 126 multi-role, medium-range combat aircraft or MMRCA unraveled. On Monday, Lockheed Martin announced it had signed a “landmark agreement” with Tata Advanced Systems Limited “affirming the companies intent to join hands to produce the F-16 Block 70 in India,” causing waves of excitement on Twitter.” The two companies are still working out details but Lockheed is clearly making a big push to win the deal. An Indian official told ET the government is yet to make a decision and Lockheed was taking “a leap ahead” with its announcement. The signing is in anticipation of the government of India’s decision in Lockheed’s favour and against Sweden’s Saab whose Gripen fighter is in competition to supply the IAF. But the IAF is yet to place an order for the 100 or more single-engine aircraft it needs to replace the MiG-21s. Although there are many unknowns on the Indian side, Lockheed executives have apparently been working on the Trump Administration with some success. Orlando Carvalho, executive vice president of Lockheed’s aeronautics division, told Defence News at the Paris Air Show that his company had “briefed various members of the administration on the programme” and there is confidence that the Trump Administration would be supportive. “We haven’t seen any resistance to the programme by the administration” Carvalho was quoted as saying.Trump has emphasised keeping jobs in the US under the “Buy American, Hire American” slogan. So far, his administration has not said anything about the F-16 line moving to India. The Obama Administration gave both Lockheed Martin and Boeing the green signal last December to build production facilities in India. It’s unclear at this stage if the US government is willing to part with crucial technology – a key Indian demand. Since the Pakistan also flies the F-16, it’s unclear whether India would exercise control on future orders.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/pm-modis-us-visit-officials-race-against-time-to-seal-f-16-deal/#more-139004 .
 

Rajputra

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understandable, after all we need something after wasting billions of dollars in Teja Fiasco. i guess we need these F-16 ASAP as our AF already gave us hint about conditions of our fighters. (you can not play cricket with 7 batsman).

ironically Indians used to say that we will not buy 80's old f-16 junks, we need 200 Rafales ! :lol: we are rich, we can afford this. we should thank modi and franch who saved our billions of dollars by reducing order from 126 to 36.

I am looking at this deal in the context of pushing ahead with Tejas production. Every bit of information that is coming out, seems to reinforce the belief that it would be much smarter and wiser to focus these efforts into speeding up Tejas production.

If we have to import radar, engines, weapons systems not to mention a host of sub-system and components from registered vendors around the world, aren't we better off doing so for our home grown product compared to phoren maal?
taja bhai is like Karan Arjun. "mere karan Arjun aayenge, aayenge ek din" :lol:
 

lcafanboy

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ironically Indians used to say that we will not buy 80's old f-16 junks, we need 200 Rafales! :lol: we are rich, we can afford this. we should thank modi and franch who saved our billions of dollars by reducing order from 126 to 36.
Who said Rafales are not coming? The figure you mentioned is correct 200 Rafales are coming. IN requirement for Rafales is 57 along with IAF 189 which will definitely come. DRAL is fast coming with facility comprising 1000 acres in Nagpur. 36 Rafales ordered has 18 optional which will be ordered next year after seeing tangible results on OFF SETS and once these are delivered (Kaveri Engine and several other things) and part of these OFF SETS are being used to set up plant to build Rafales in India which will bring down the cost.

Also GOI ordered 36 Rafales taking into consideration that newer technologies will be incorporated with passing times which will be available on newer planes for same amount and we will be saving money on upgradation in future. Look at SU-30mkis it is still being delivered with 2000's technology and will be upgraded to super sukhoi after delivery which will cost extra instead we could have got Super Sukhoi directly. Future Rafales could be of Rafales F-4 standards which will have different avionics and further F4.1 which be structurally different as compared to present Rafales. See F-16 A/b and current they both different planes, similarly SU30 to SU35, had we bought in batches we would have been buying SU35mki now which is more advanced. So chill Rafales are coming.

Also IAF's alone new fighter requirements are around 600, add IN's requirements of 10 squadrons 200 fighters till 2030 you will see the larger picture now. So F-16, Rafales, LCA, AMCA, FGFA all will be absorbed.
 

Rajputra

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Who said Rafales are not coming? The figure you mentioned is correct 200 Rafales are coming. IN requirement for Rafales is 57 along with IAF 189 which will definitely come. DRAL is fast coming with facility comprising 1000 acres in Nagpur. 36 Rafales ordered has 18 optional which will be ordered next year after seeing tangible results on OFF SETS and once these are delivered (Kaveri Engine and several other things) and part of these OFF SETS are being used to set up plant to build Rafales in India which will bring down the cost.

Also GOI ordered 36 Rafales taking into consideration that newer technologies will be incorporated with passing times which will be available on newer planes for same amount and we will be saving money on upgradation in future. Look at SU-30mkis it is still being delivered with 2000's technology and will be upgraded to super sukhoi after delivery which will cost extra instead we could have got Super Sukhoi directly. Future Rafales could be of Rafales F-4 standards which will have different avionics and further F4.1 which be structurally different as compared to present Rafales. See F-16 A/b and current they both different planes, similarly SU30 to SU35, had we bought in batches we would have been buying SU35mki now which is more advanced. So chill Rafales are coming.

Also IAF's alone new fighter requirements are around 600, add IN's requirements of 10 squadrons 200 fighters till 2030 you will see the larger picture now. So F-16, Rafales, LCA, AMCA, FGFA all will be absorbed.
do you have any source of your claim that 200 Rafales are coming ? 2017 ka. we need money to buy 200 Rafales, 124 ke nahi hain 200 ke kahase nikalenge ? maintance cost ka khyal hain ?

we are buying 200 F-16s according to this news and 36 rafales. and on one thing i agree is we have option to buy another 18. mt max we will have 48 to 70 Rafales like previous M- 2000 fighters.

we made huge mistake by not buying M-35 from Russia in 2008, aaj hamare pass atlest 50 60 Mig-35 to hote... we are making russia angry ad it will surely bite our ass in near future.
 

lcafanboy

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Reliance Defence to partner with France's Daher for aerospace components

http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...-for-aerospace-components-117062200809_1.html



These are all time pass according to you.

Read carefully see things closely Dasault, Reliance and Rafales is the biggest FDI in India. It's HUGE, you will see in coming days. It points to only one thing Rafales are coming in huge numbers.

Also see this:

Latest Institutional Investor meet held with DRAL folks as part of the company meet

Point 1
http://*****************/attachments/upload_2017-6-21_19-17-51-png.5755/

Point 2
http://*****************/attachments/upload_2017-6-21_19-16-28-png.5754/
 
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airtel

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Latest Institutional Investor meet held with DRAL folks as part of the company meet

Point 1
http://*****************/attachments/upload_2017-6-21_19-17-51-png.5755/

Point 2
http://*****************/attachments/upload_2017-6-21_19-16-28-png.5754/
bro images are not visible .............please post again .


also may be that Nagpur Plant is for AURA (ghatak) UCAV production ??
 

airtel

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Latest Institutional Investor meet held with DRAL folks as part of the company meet

View attachment 16959

Clearly state 18 fighters per annum. Want more proofs.
I Hope they are Buying for Navy . :rofl::rofl::rofl:

and If they real want to Buy rafales then why they did not admit it ?

Manohar Parikar ne Bola tha ki Ye luxary hai .................we can not afford it .
 

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