Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Akshay Fenix]

Total snake oil, dont believe it one bit. If LM charged a piss poor Iraq 4.2bn for one squadron of F16Block 52 LCC how will it sell India 150 Block 70 for USD 15-20bn given that assembly line is only 20-40% of the cost and surely LM will not give away assembly line for free.The rest of 60-70% cost will be in dollars.

Drill this in your mind -> Make in India will always be expensive (things such as building fighter planes with 60% domestic components and tie up with private industries and all the bullshit drains money and government is ready to pay $$$ for it), buying a plane offshelf will be much cheaper but does it help Indian domestic Industries? Nope.

DPP 2016 states it all.

 

[sbm]

If there is a fight then it is between F-16 and Gripen.

India is acting as a referee.

There are too many paid agendas at work in this thing. Both aircraft have advantages. What is worrying is that in the attempt to rebut the F-16, some Indian commentators are spouting half-truths and nonsense. Classic one is the Link-16 OBDL - why would India want a datalink different from the ones specified for the Rafale and Su-30MKI? Especially since Tadiran and DARE developed it? Also, no understanding of how subcontractor IPR rights are subsumed in a broader contract. It's like opinion being passed of as fact. Worrying trend.

 

[smestarz]

This could be the HF 24 moment again repeated in history,
India had HF-24 and yet we went for MiG-21 because they were cheaper and lost the chance to be a power long time ago, depending on imports.

Most people will be happy that F-16 will be "made in India" and miss the bigger picture...... and praise Modi for this stupid decision

 

[AnantS]

US is not ready to supply combat drones because it would "upset" the balance of power i region. But on the other hand pushes old end of life F - 16 to India? If you buy F 16, Lad liye fir Pakistan sey. I doubt US will even let IAF fly F 16 fly, lest it upsets balance of power(read "Pakistan")

Yaar AMCA nahin Banta toh go collaborate with Japan/South Korea. Collaborate with Japan, so atleast PSU learns a thing or two from Japanese about time & project management.

Modi should put money where the mouth is and force Ambani and Adani to open a private assembly line for LCA, like NOW. That will be make in India. But we don't need is Tata, Ambani version of HALor BEL !! Because what can be worse than PSU HAL? Tata/Ambani version of HAL!

But for God sake stop this chicanery of F16 Gripen bow bark bow

 

[FactsPlease]

But for God sake stop this chicanery of F16 Gripen bow bark bow

"Everyone hates politics. That's why you need to put it first in consideration."
I can hardly believe USA will NOT put any string there for F16. For those claiming urgent needs in fighter number, better keep in mind you will only be allowed to use those planes for the war Uncle Sam gives permission. I can not stress more, per the past 60 years experience of Canada defense taking-granted, humiliation, cheating, blackmail, and so on...
-- On the other hand, I truly doubt how long Russia can resist the temptation to give every bit information of PAKFA to China, given current politics trend that it need China more than ever.
So, make best of your self-reliance, while everyone here still have the will. Even it takes time, it will pay off...

 

[lcafanboy]

F-16s head-start
Published June 26, 2017 SOURCE: The Statesman

It is unlikely that the Tatas and Lockheed Martin did no It is unlikely that the Tatas and Lockheed Martin did not have strong signals that India would be preferring the F-16 over the Swedish Grippen before they entered into a formal tie-up to produce that battle-tested warhorse in India. It would also be unlikely that the American firm would have proceeded thus far without clearance from the Trump administration that is so firmly opposed to “outsourcing” jobs that could be done by Americans at home. Maybe the official stamps of approval would be forthcoming during Narendra Modi’s visit to the United States, and hopefully it would progress more expeditiously than the deal for buying 36 Rafales that he signed during a visit to Paris well over a year ago. The IAF is in dire need of a substantial number of single-engine fighters (less-expensive than the increasingly-popular twin-engine planes) to maintain adequate fleet levels to compensate for the phasing out of the obsolete Mig- 21s. Dire because it has now been officially accepted that the much-hyped home-built Tejas LCA cannot fill the MiG-21 void. The Tata-Lockheed deal fits in with the “make in India” thinking, and will actually give the F-16 an added lease of life now that production in the US has been curtailed since the military there has opted for the more advanced F-35. The tie-up would help expedite the production/supply of the jets India needs, and to that extent the F-16 has taken a lead over the Grippen ~ the only other aircraft being considered. Several queries, however, need to be answered. Just how “contemporary” is the Block 70 variant of the F-16 being offered, and since the US forces no longer purchase it will there be a price advantage for India? Will the deal include transferring to the Tata-Lockheed tie-up the possibility of export to other countries opting for the aircraft? What about the support services for more than 4,000 jets in service with several other air forces? These elements elevate the deal to more than the supply of over 100 units to the IAF. Several firms are involved in the production of components and sub-assemblies of the F-16, does the arrangement with Lockeed cover all those “angles”? While a comprehensive arrangement could make for a commercially attractive proposition that might secure India an opening in the military-aviation market, it will not be helping the industry leapfrog its way to “frontier technology”. For having to fall back on the F-16 to “shore up the defences” only underscores the failure of the DRDO and HAL to come good on the Tejas on which a huge sum has been invested, and the people consistently misled by the sustained hype that the indigenous fighter was all set to add teeth to the defence effort.

http://idrw.org/f-16s-head-start/#more-139222 .

 

[sbm]

They do seem to have a lead over SAAB. SAAB is not offering an exclusive line - Brazil will have one plus Sweden - and the Gripen has the same or lower indigenous composition as the Tejas. However, this will not be about the aircraft. It's about the package and right now we are not entirely sure of either the LM or SAAB offer.

 

[Narasimh]

After Modi and Trump meet and their overall interaction, it is very likely that India will go for F-16 rather than Gripen. Trump's first words were note of thanks for buying American equipment. Looking at the strategic benefits that might come with an F-16 buy, India might drop Gripen which has no strategic benefits even though it could be cheaper and newer aircraft.

 

[SanjeevM]

Let's wait for details to emerge. Too early to say.

 

[Pulkit]

I am not saying Tejas is BS, even though I have to digest of what my friend said. I've been advocating Tejas on this forum and I am hopeful that even at 28 squadrons we can put a great fight but we must accept that whatever IAF is thinking with this deal, it's just plain bad.

Your interpretation was not what I meant.
I never suggested that.

Not been able to build my faith in the top brass of IAF and IA for long now.

As Tejas is concerned I was called Tejas Bhakt , Team Tejas etc etc on this same forum. I am all in for Tejas.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

That F16 block 70 is the best option for us has no element of doubt in it because:
1) F16 Block 70 will have a brand new engine giving it same thrust as F35
2) Brand new AESA radar
3) Elements of F35 sensor fusion

That said the airframe is still 40 years old so main question will boil down to price. America is known to overcharge on items like spares, electronics etc. So if F16 block 70 comes at 200mn USD per plane or above, its not worth it as we can buy a rafale at same price. Price of USD150mn is a good price. Lets see how the negotiations pan out. I think finally they will settle at a price between USD150mn-200mn. If not I don't think we will buy F16 at 200mn or above.

 

[WolfPack86]

Confirmation Received today Morning from the Source

• Confirmed F35 linked to F16 as told earlier
• Prez Trump gave assurance personally to PM Modi about the F16 and two more things (to be disclosed later)
• Its clear that F16 declaration under G2G route was not done as there is considerable pressure from Russia about ordering frontline jets and access to arms Market to USA in a big way.
• There will be a small competition which has a pre-decided winner and may lead to disqualification of other competitor as well as inferior technical evaluation scoring due to immature final product representation.
• A similar amount like the SE Jet deal in other deals will be ordered from Russia to keep them appeased as well. Expected to feature is Super Upgrade of $8Bn + within this time period.
• Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member telling that F16 deal discussed during trump and modi meet. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-133#post-573898

 

[WolfPack86]

In response to the two points to be disclosed later:

The points made are basically under the leadership of NSA Doval who had spearheaded these pacts and are basically a game changer. These secret pacts now means USA, France and Russia all three are under same conditionals and thus will be guaranteed massive participation in Indian Arms and weapons modernization needs for next 30-50 years

Point No 1

• A full fledged secret pact towards a aggressive and hostile common enemy of both countries.
• To counter that country all facilitation will be provided in terms of weapons and weapon system , technology access for all 3 - air, land and sea deals at minimalist cost under FMS as well as subsidized partially under the secret pact.
• It was F35 that was pitched by PM Modi instead of F16 and Prez Trump insisted on a gradual movement to F35 from F16 as this helps both countries defense industries, employment and relationship building.
• Before the 5th gen Jet of the common enemy is fully deployed in many frontiers, Prez Trump has assured PM Modi of access to F35 for India.

Point No 2

• There is pact of roaming assets to be provided to India and IOR.
• These roaming assets will be under joint command system of both the countries.
• This will include a massive ISR upgrade package and other abilities including underwater surveillance.
• Also will include support of military nature in entire IOR domain
• Few Quick reaction teams are part of the plan to take out strategic facilities in the west if deemed necessary as part of a coalition multi nation team
• Many other points which will remain classified due to the nature of the pact
• Above statement written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member talking about F 35 coming to India after purchase of F 16. I am posting link below.
• http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-133#post-573898

 

[Aghore_King]

So basically it means modi has butchered indigenous aircraft industry....

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

If we are ordering a small number of F 16s may be 2 squadrons and rest are F 35s then i say its a good deal.

 

[Aghore_King]

But purchasing f 35 will cannibalize amca...

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

But purchasing f 35 will cannibalize amca...

F 16 will kill lca

F 35 will kill amca

Pak Fa will kill something else.


How are we supposed to keep the numbers and technology in IAF without buying foreign planes?AMCA is on paper while lca still lacks FOC.

Will the enemy wait till we get indigenious tech ready?

War has to be fought with weapons no matter local or imported.We are at the best 10yrs away from one.

 

[Aghore_King]

F 16 will kill lca


How are we supposed to keep the numbers and technology in IAF without buying foreign planes?AMCA is on paper while lca still lacks FOC.

Will the enemy wait till we get indigenious tech ready?

War has to be fought with weapons no matter local or imported.We are at the best 10yrs away from one.

Frankly, if this goes on....Then we will never be able to build a full fledged military industrial complex...and keep importing till 2050... indigenous efforts must be encouraged if we are willing to become a great power....

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Frankly, if this goes on....Then we will never be able to build a full fledged military industrial complex...and keep importing till 2050... indigenous efforts must be encouraged if we are willing to become a great power....

Please tell me how will we fight a war?Will the enemy wait till we have a MIC?

 

[Aghore_King]

Please tell me how will we fight a war?Will the enemy wait till we have a MIC?

I agree with you that we have to import some weapons to fight a war ..But what I am saying is when single engine Tejas is available then why go for single engine f 16 , when we are developing amca then why go for f 35 , I have no problem in buying 200 rafales because we don't have anything in that class...But when indigenous product is available it should be given priority over foreign one...