Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Pulkit]

Not Sure if i favour F16 or not but we cannot replace all the retiring aircrafts with Tejas.
We have 33 Squadron 11 less than the required to fight 2 front war.
This means 198 Aircrafts Short.
We are planning to retire or we will be forced to retire another 10 squadron by 2025-2030 which will account to another 180 aircrafts to be replaced.

Tejas in the current form and HAL version has around 120 on order (If everything goes well )+ 36 rafale.
Given the production rate of Tejas we will not be able to complete the current order anytime before 2027 this might be extended that is 10 years from today.

So we do need another aircraft to replace the about to retire Aircrafts.
What we need to decide is which One.

AMCA FGFA are not gonna be with India anytime soon thanks for the bureaucracy and politics.

I have faith in Modi but Parikar Sir out is sad.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

It makes sense to buy F16 if it costs USD100mn at max per aircraft with spares and support. Looking at fine print of this contract that seems unlikely. More likely the cost will be close to USD200mn per aircraft if not more.

 

[Ancient Indian]

@Krusty
We need more than 400 aircraft, right?

What's the big loss if we order, say 40? Will it impact any thing in long run? It's not like we are buying anything from them.

We still have requirement for more than 360. We have plenty of space for our Tejas program. I don't like the monopoly our public sector industry has on many things. And they produce shitty quality products. They are not even trying to reduce the import burden.

Lets inject new blood into our industry. Who knows which direction it will take us?

 

[Krusty]

@Krusty
We need more than 400 aircraft, right?

What's the big loss if we order, say 40? Will it impact any thing in long run? It's not like we are buying anything from them.

We still have requirement for more than 360. We have plenty of space for our Tejas program. I don't like the monopoly our public sector industry has on many things. And they produce shitty quality products. They are not even trying to reduce the import burden.

Lets inject new blood into our industry. Who knows which direction it will take us?

What do we gain from it? (Everyone says modern production line. But I ask at what cost?)More importantly, when IAF gets these shiny western birds, will it stop with 40? Now that it's produced in full swing in India itself?

which do you think will be faster? Replacing the 400 jets with F16s built in India by TATA or replacing 400 jets with Tejas built by HAL/ADA?


What does China gain from manufacturing Ford cars in China? Few thousand Low cost assembly labor jobs. Peanuts compared to the billions what USA makes from parent company Ford selling the cars it makes in China. The very Same is applicable here.

I want to hear your version. I have been asking how AMCA will benefit from this deal. Everyone says so but no one is will to explain exactly how.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

What do we gain from it? (Everyone says modern production line. But I ask at what cost?)More importantly, when IAF gets these shiny western birds, will it stop with 40? Now that it's produced in full swing in India itself?

which do you think will be faster? Replacing the 400 jets with F16s built in India by TATA or replacing 400 jets with Tejas built by HAL/ADA?


What does China gain from manufacturing Ford cars in China? Few thousand Low cost assembly labor jobs. Peanuts compared to the billions what USA makes from parent company Ford selling the cars it makes in China. The very Same is applicable here.

I want to hear your version. I have been asking how AMCA will benefit from this deal. Everyone says so but no one is will to explain exactly how.

Currently our squadron strength is at 33 and since the migs are also retiring by 2022 then our sq strength will come down to 18 if we dont buy more planes we are finished. Sadly we do not have any options.

 

[Krusty]

Currently our squadron strength is at 33 and since the migs are also retiring by 2022 then our sq strength will come down to 18 if we dont buy more planes we are finished. Sadly we do not have any options.

I understand the situation we are in. But did we investigate as to why we are in such a fix?

We had ordered spanky new MiG21s, then 23s, then Mirage 2000s and SU30 but we failed on the spares front and not to mention we never had a proper roadmap for IAF inventory. That is the reason for the fix we are in now. Ordering new jets aside, did we find the root cause and possible fix? I don't know. That should be done in parallel with this batch of acquisition. Or else 30/40 years down the line, IAF will face the exact same problem again.

I'm not commenting about the options. I'm just saying it's a bad deal for us. Failure in multiple fronts. Mark my words, if the F16line is setup in India, IAF will not stop with 30-40 of these birds. What will be the cost of one F16 Blk 70 vis a vis Mig35?

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Currently our squadron strength is at 33 and since the migs are also retiring by 2022 then our sq strength will come down to 18 if we dont buy more planes we are finished. Sadly we do not have any options.

So should we be spending USD 30bn+ on an aircraft which is 40 years old.Why cant they buy 80 Su 30MKI/80Mig 29 as a stop gap measure and order 100 rafales as assembling later.The whole hoopla about Su30MKI spares is just a massive scam of airforce officials to force purchase of an expensive western fighter which will bring huge commissions and kickbacks. As per this contract not a single F16 part will be produced in India. If we look at recent deal of qatar for F15, they have spent 12billion for mere 36 fighters. F16 would cost 70-80% of that. Since only screwdriver assembly will be done in India , I am assuming a 10% haircut on price so we are talking about 30bn USD (at least) for mere 150-200 fighters. Do we have so much money to finance jobs in other countries. Already we face a massive jobs crisis, a socio economic crisis. Day after day gangrapes are taking place, protests are taking place,mobs are ruling roost as there are no jobs, no money, no hope and we are spending USD 30bn to support US middle class. Why cant we deploy upgraded Akash systems by thousands to provide solid Air defence cover. The more I look at it, the more I am pessimistic about future of India given how corrupt our top officials (military including) have become. They want to accumulate as much as possible for there future generations and screw the country.

 

[scatterStorm]

Look people, I think there's always a tradeoff for what you buy, you gain something and you loose something. If these F16 are Block 70s than they probably help us in two pronged war scenarios. Paki's have these with the older version, we can help our boys anticipate every air maneuver in there pockets.

We can have a Red flag every week in here at our home and learn what's the good, the bad and the ugly of this jet, train our MKI pilots not just the top 10% to tackle the Paki F16s.

On North eastern air theater, we may deploy a triad, MKIs, Rafale and F16-B70s to counter every warplane Chinkies may throw at us. We will learn a great deal of Western and Eastern tech including the Rafale's and how to use them in N-sync warfare, probably making us the only country to know how to be compatible with every military aviation tech.

Once we gain some knowledge of developing production lines that can churn over 50 fighters from a single base factory than we may be able to put some good use to AMCA, Tejas and who knows what next.

Regarding ToT ... no country give us 100% tech transfer, considering USAF is still operating F16 to this date and rumors are going that it will go on for 2030.

IMHO and the bottom line is, it's much better than Gripen, but do I think it's a good deal ... certainly no! IMF has been thinking to have F16s for a reason ... who knows what it might be. Let's see.

 

[Ancient Indian]

What do we gain from it? (Everyone says modern production line. But I ask at what cost?)More importantly, when IAF gets these shiny western birds, will it stop with 40? Now that it's produced in full swing in India itself?

which do you think will be faster? Replacing the 400 jets with F16s built in India by TATA or replacing 400 jets with Tejas built by HAL/ADA?


What does China gain from manufacturing Ford cars in China? Few thousand Low cost assembly labor jobs. Peanuts compared to the billions what USA makes from parent company Ford selling the cars it makes in China. The very Same is applicable here.

I want to hear your version. I have been asking how AMCA will benefit from this deal. Everyone says so but no one is will to explain exactly how.

What benefit you are expecting from this deal?

You are mixing three different things into one.
The deal is to manufacture F-16 in India. It never said IAF will buy them. Even LM website also says same.

What posters here going on about is worst case scenario. Why would we shelve Tejas if some american co runs some assembling unit in India? Don't we have enough confidence in IAF? IAF always buys best products. They are very patriotic.

The decision is with IAF. They can chose their option. No need to kill healthy competition. If HAL has enough confidence in its products, it shouldn't worry about this competition.

This deal is more to do with appeasing Trump and at the same time squeezing whatever benefits we can from it. Sometimes we may not get any benefit from this single deal.

Look at these three as separate ones. Most of our posters here have no business sense or have vetted interests.

 

[scatterStorm]

Not Sure if i favour F16 or not but we cannot replace all the retiring aircrafts with Tejas.
We have 33 Squadron 11 less than the required to fight 2 front war.
This means 198 Aircrafts Short.
We are planning to retire or we will be forced to retire another 10 squadron by 2025-2030 which will account to another 180 aircrafts to be replaced.

Tejas in the current form and HAL version has around 120 on order (If everything goes well )+ 36 rafale.
Given the production rate of Tejas we will not be able to complete the current order anytime before 2027 this might be extended that is 10 years from today.

So we do need another aircraft to replace the about to retire Aircrafts.
What we need to decide is which One.

AMCA FGFA are not gonna be with India anytime soon thanks for the bureaucracy and politics.

I have faith in Modi but Parikar Sir out is sad.

I don't think 33 squadrons we proudly say are ready for war scenario, considering out of those 33 at best 28 will be fully operational and 5 will have hiccups! Always think of the worst case scenario.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

I understand the situation we are in. But did we investigate as to why we are in such a fix?

We had ordered spanky new MiG21s, then 23s, then Mirage 2000s and SU30 but we failed on the spares front and not to mention we never had a proper roadmap for IAF inventory. That is the reason for the fix we are in now. Ordering new jets aside, did we find the root cause and possible fix? I don't know. That should be done in parallel with this batch of acquisition. Or else 30/40 years down the line, IAF will face the exact same problem again.

I'm not commenting about the options. I'm just saying it's a bad deal for us. Failure in multiple fronts. Mark my words, if the F16line is setup in India, IAF will not stop with 30-40 of these birds. What will be the cost of one F16 Blk 70 vis a vis Mig35?

Our past was a complete mess with no forward thinking which is why we are stuck in this mess. A dearth of 400 fighters and two enemies at our door step.

The root cause of the problem is that we wasted a complete decade with no new acquisitions and forget about acquisitions we bloody hell did not even invest in our own R&D centers for all those years.

After 2002, the Tejas program went into a deep hibernation and what's funny is that we started AMCA program in 2008 when the Tejas program was not even finished.

Current production rate of Tejas is 8 warbirds per year, by 2025 it will reach 24.
We just cannot wait till 2025, we need another production line to catch up (wasted decade) and this is where the private players will come in.

Reliance Rafale combo (twin engine) and Tata Lockheed combo (single engine) both competing for the pie.

+ HAL and Sukhoi combo

+ HALs very own Tejas(single) and AMCA(twin).

The pie is very big for everyone to eat.

And,
Duh!! Why would they stop at 40 when the requirement is 150 warbirds.

 

[scatterStorm]

Our past was a complete mess with no forward thinking which is why we are stuck in this mess. A dearth of 400 fighters and two enemies at our door step.

The root cause of the problem is that we wasted a complete decade with no new acquisitions and forget about acquisitions we bloody hell did not even invest in our own R&D centers for all those years.

After 2002, the Tejas program went into a deep hibernation and what's funny is that we started AMCA program in 2008 when the Tejas program was not even finished.

Current production rate of Tejas is 8 warbirds per year, by 2025 it will reach 24.
We just cannot wait till 2025, we need another production line to catch up (wasted decade) and this is where the private players will come in.

Reliance Rafale combo (twin engine) and Tata Lockheed combo (single engine) both competing for the pie.

+ HAL and Sukhoi combo

+ HALs very own Tejas(single) and AMCA(twin).

The pie is very big for everyone to eat.

And,
Duh!! Why would they stop at 40 when the requirement is 150 warbirds.

In short ...

WAR is a racket ! It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.

Everybody likes to make some shit load of profit, F16 or any jet ... It's just goodness darn business.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

So should we be spending USD 30bn+ on an aircraft which is 40 years old.Why cant they buy 80 Su 30MKI/80Mig 29 as a stop gap measure and order 100 rafales as assembling later.The whole hoopla about Su30MKI spares is just a massive scam of airforce officials to force purchase of an expensive western fighter which will bring huge commissions and kickbacks. As per this contract not a single F16 part will be produced in India. If we look at recent deal of qatar for F15, they have spent 12billion for mere 36 fighters. F16 would cost 70-80% of that. Since only screwdriver assembly will be done in India , I am assuming a 10% haircut on price so we are talking about 30bn USD (at least) for mere 150-200 fighters. Do we have so much money to finance jobs in other countries. Already we face a massive jobs crisis, a socio economic crisis. Day after day gangrapes are taking place, protests are taking place,mobs are ruling roost as there are no jobs, no money, no hope and we are spending USD 30bn to support US middle class. Why cant we deploy upgraded Akash systems by thousands to provide solid Air defence cover. The more I look at it, the more I am pessimistic about future of India given how corrupt our top officials (military including) have become. They want to accumulate as much as possible for there future generations and screw the country.

Learn the difference between twin engine and single engine, and what are their advantages.

The warbird names you have mentioned are all twin engine and what we are discussing is single engine plane F16.

India invests just 2% of it's GDP on defense rest 98% goes to feeding lazy swine's that goes on to say "desh ke tukde karenge".

 

[Srinivas_K]

Exactly, these guys are forgetting that it is business as well as setting up aero space eco system in India.
It is up to us Indians to grab what ever tech we get and develop our own.

What benefit you are expecting from this deal?

You are mixing three different things into one.
The deal is to manufacture F-16 in India. It never said IAF will buy them. Even LM website also says same.

What posters here going on about is worst case scenario. Why would we shelve Tejas if some american co runs some assembling unit in India? Don't we have enough confidence in IAF? IAF always buys best products. They are very patriotic.

The decision is with IAF. They can chose their option. No need to kill healthy competition. If HAL has enough confidence in its products, it shouldn't worry about this competition.

This deal is more to do with appeasing Trump and at the same time squeezing whatever benefits we can from it. Sometimes we may not get any benefit from this single deal.

Look at these three as separate ones. Most of our posters here have no business sense or have vetted interests.

 

[square]

Why would they stop at 40 when the requirement is 150 warbirds.

once production start the numbers will keep adding........

 

[Butter Chicken]

Exactly, these guys are forgetting that it is business as well as setting up aero space eco system in India.
It is up to us Indians to grab what ever tech we get and develop our own.

what ecosystem?In joint statement they have clearly said that thousands of supplier jobs will remain in USA.India(TATA) will only assemble imported kits with some tires etc sources from India

 

[hit&run]

LCA will not fulfill the numbers.

Make in India with Rafale would have happened if it was that easy.

Gripen make in India may be a possibility but we do not know what were the impediments in case of Rafale the same may hit any deal with Gripen.

If not F-16 then which single engine jet with that kind of weapon package and capabilities fit the bill ?

Pakistanis weaning off F-16 or shifting to other jets is a shallow argument especially when we understand the classification by Generation. Pakistanis can not jump the Generation above to what is available. India will pitch the same Generation against them; if they upgrade. If these planes are inducted early whole PAF becomes redundant as far as capabilities are concerned.

The kind of deal it seems I will be not surprised if gradually the whole assembly will be absorbed.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

what ecosystem?In joint statement they have clearly said that thousands of supplier jobs will remain in USA.India(TATA) will only assemble imported kits with some tires etc sources from India

Exactly . Thats what i am saying. All key components like radars, EW systems, engines, Wings etc will be manufactured in US and shipped to India and screwed into the main body produced in the factory in india. This is what we have been doing with Su30MKI for ages. Forget Su30MKI we have been doing it with Mig 21 as well. Unless Northop grummen produces modules of radars in India, PW produces blades of engines in India, cores in India, EW systems in India in war time u will have to wait for Fedex cargo to come from NY passing through blockaded waters. Good luck with that On top we will be spending much more than is being stated. 150 is the minimum number of fighters LM is demanding we purchase from assembly line and how much will 150 Block 70 cost. For 8 Block 52, US was demanding USD800mn from pakistan. This is Block 70 which will be 50% more expensive. Thats 1.2bn from 8 fighters. Multiply by 20 gives USD24bn with marginal haircut due to assemblyin India. it comes down to just above USD20bn for 150 block 70. Now how many rafales can we purchase for USD20bn, I can bet it will be more than 100.

 

[Pulkit]

I don't think 33 squadrons we proudly say are ready for war scenario, considering out of those 33 at best 28 will be fully operational and 5 will have hiccups! Always think of the worst case scenario.

Availability is a different scenario, but currently we do have these many squad.
Then the other factor is that a sqad can range from 2 Min to 18 aircrafts, these numbers cannot be calculated that way.

Every Aircraft has different availability rate. Currently we do have 33 Squads

 

[Srinivas_K]

what ecosystem?In joint statement they have clearly said that thousands of supplier jobs will remain in USA.India(TATA) will only assemble imported kits with some tires etc sources from India

It is upto Indians to show competency and supply the same parts at cheaper rates and move up the chain. Your argument is flawed.