Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Krusty]

other then tcs and tata steel , all other tata group companies are in lose , the debt burden on them is too high and will hamper their position against LM.......also they are too ethical when it comes to adoptation....

i have more confidence in adani....

perhaps .. But tatas are still much bigger nonetheless

 

[mayfair]

As @Krusty pointed out very eloquently, no company will part with sensitive tech, especially the one that took years and heaps of $$ to develop.

At most, TATA will gain an experience in assembly of fighter jets. How much can they absorb or are rather allowed to absorb is another matter.

 

[Akshay Fenix]

What tech transfer? No cutting/bleeding edge tech will be transferred. This Blk 70 has the latest goodies but Are you saying the Ditigalterrain system, latest EW suite, HMD, Fire control radar, modular Mission computer technology will be transferred to us?

Let's stop being naive. Even Russia didn't transfer tech for the T90 barrel. And that's 90s tech. At best it parts will come in as CKDs which will be put together in india.

Absolute waste of time to say the least. Knowing USA they might even try to collect critical Mission/intel through embedded devices if CIA feels like it.

If anyone thinks any useful cutting edge tech will be transferred, sorry but they are naive. I have said this before. Countries spent decades of research, billions of $ in R&D, hundreds of thousands of manhours by foremost Scientists and Engineers to develop the tech they have today. And people just expect it to be handed over to us? Give me one good reason...

Edit: comment meant for @Srinivas_K

Kudos to you, excellent reply.

And then we being emotional fools unfriend them thinking they have duped us.

 

[Indibomber]

Is it? Or at a different angle, TATA group and Ratan Tata personally has massive influence on The Central government.... no matter what part is in power.

My understanding is ED is after Ratan Tata for money laundering no case has been registered yet things are being dug in Tatas backyard. Sadly govt can't let such big enterprise fail but time of Tatas is surely up.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Looking at fine print of this contract I can say only one thing- a massive disappointment and if GOI follows with this model for single engine plane then 100% jumlebaz will prove to be a bigger fraud than UPA/MMS. Consider this:
1) Not a single critical component will be manufactured in India, no GAN AESA TWR modules,no sensors, no fuselage, no wings, no nothing. At best the plane will be assembled in India from CKD a la Su 30MKI(even worse (since we manufacture many Su30MKI parts). Lifelong spares will be sourced from US at their will.
2) No customization of weaponry to India with critical Israeli weapons missing. How will F16 operate with Su 30MKI and rafale if they are not customized according to Indian needs.
3) Cost wise it beggars belief that such an advanced version of F16 will cost 50-75mn per plane. The cost will be easily triple of it since we are not producing any part of the plane in house and I am taking Qatar deal as price benchmark (mind you the F16s we are getting are more advanced than Qatar). So if we are buying 200 of these, be prepared to spend at least USD25bn and even USD 30-35bn.
4) Does it make sense to spend USD25-35 bn on a 40 year old 4th gen plane with latest gizmos when we can get same number of 4+++ gen rafale for same price if we negotiate with french. I can bet that with USD 25bn we can squeeze in 150+ rafales which is anyday better than 200+ F16s.
5) Maybe this F16 offer comes with customization with F35 components but without a concrete F35 offer from Uncle Sam, purchasing F16 is a dead end.
6) When twin engine Su 30MKIs are crashing under high altitude conditions of AP, how do u expect single engine F16s to perform.
7) For Pakistan it will be a God send, they will get Mig 35 and Su 35 and J31 from Russia and China under Chinese FMF and they know F16 inside out. The pressure to source spares will be on us not them since all their aircrafts will be compatible.

All in all I am really scared at what Modi is doing to us as a country. He is selling us down the tube and we are praising him in Madison Square Garden.

 

[Srinivas_K]

here 99% means india can buy this , not that india will get to inside it.....had we heard that during mmrca trails iaf make a compliant that f16 snd f18 send for trails are delibratly downgraded versions strictly calibrated to just fill the tendar critaria .....

You are missing the point, the manufacturing establishes an eco system here. Indian companies establish themselves as players in this field . Our Aerospace industry grows.

We are not selecting F16 as of now, we are getting jobs in aero space sector.

LCA development will have advantages with this deal.

 

[Superdefender]

So we have 7 players out of 11 due to injury/lack of players. To replace them, the board decided to include 4 inferior players. And Indians are chanting - go win the match. So much political appeasement is going on.

 

[Srinivas_K]

No I meant, list of tech specifically from the F16 Blk 70 (deal) that will be TOT'd.... where is it said that we will get critical tech from Blk 70?

It's so easy to classify all cutting edge tech in that 1% and deny access. It's so metaphorical....

India needs a technological push, even USA gets its some of the critical components from outside their country.

Public private partnership in defence technologies is the next big thing and this is part of that initiative.

No one is saying IAF is going to induct F16 and there by it will have impact on the development of LCA.

The reports are only suggesting that we are getting production lines from LM and jobs.

Soon we will get production lines of other prominent jets like Rafale, etc....etc...,,

 

[Srinivas_K]

it says USA is ready to "sell" 99% of it's military equipment ...............they will not transfer any critical technology Like Engine , AESA , EW suite etc ..................we have to develop those technologies ourselves .




neither LCA is a competitor of F-16 nor FGFA (which is still on the paper ) is competitor of rafale .

I think LM and Boeing has proposed engine development with India once the production facilities are approved by GOI.

They also said that they will share the technology for the development of AMCA.

You need to watch that interview.

India cannot face china and Pakistan with inferior weapons, India needs quality and quantity and USA is the best in the business.

Since MoD is not ignoring the indigenous weapon delopment, the doubts that are being raised are not valid.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Nonsense, nothing is being shared.Our status in US eyes is just above the arabs who are milked for contracts by Uncle Sam and then denied entry to US. We need more rafales, Su 30MKI and better AD network. Nowhere is it written in stone that 42 squadrons are necessary. For USD 25-35bn we can double the size of our army with more MBRLs and AD network We also have to spend USD6bn on S400 which is far more important than f16.This single engine plane deal is daylight robbery of Indian tax payer by a fraud Hindu nationalist Government.

 

[square]

You are missing the point, the manufacturing establishes an eco system here. Indian companies establish themselves as players in this field . Our Aerospace industry grows.

We are not selecting F16 as of now, we are getting jobs in aero space sector.

LCA development will have advantages with this deal.

for very basic aircraft components , the ecosystem is already here , we are making most of tejas , mki parts in india....

what this deal should be meant for is the jv in coming age techs.....i doubt US would share it.....

compareing with saab ,we will be forming a better bond for tommorro , they are already working with drdo in many projects .....saab might not have the same level of expertise as the LM , but saab will work harder.....

 

[square]

I think LM and Boeing has proposed engine development with India once the production facilities are approved by GOI.

They also said that they will share the technology for the development of AMCA.

You need to watch that interview.

India cannot face china and Pakistan with inferior weapons, India needs quality and quantity and USA is the best in the business.

Since MoD is not ignoring the indigenous weapon delopment, the doubts that are being raised are not valid.

LM and boeing will probabally conspire to kill amca......

 

[SanjeevM]

The point here is do a better job than HAL. Get automation in production line. Have more productivity. Learn from experience. Seed other ancillary industries and create an ecosystem for aero space industry. If Adani also deal with Rafael, it will be good. We will have competition. TATA deal should not be dependant on government orders. They should focus on export deals. Let government, IAF take their time, evaluate and buy the best. It may be Tejas or Rafael or mix of 2. As Tarun mentioned, IAF needs to take future threat perceptions of what Pakistan may get, what will counter Chinese j31 and other threats into consideration when buying.

 

[Butter Chicken]

You are missing the point, the manufacturing establishes an eco system here. Indian companies establish themselves as players in this field . Our Aerospace industry grows.

We are not selecting F16 as of now, we are getting jobs in aero space sector.

LCA development will have advantages with this deal.

Read post #68 i posted.This will be screw driver assembly not "manufacturing"

 

[airtel]

They also said that they will share the technology for the development of AMCA.

meaning they will sell ready-made component which can be integrated with AMCA .

just like we are using foreign AESA , EW suites in LCA .

nobody will share there critical knowledge with India ........we will have to develop ourself .

 

[smestarz]

Lockheed Martin and Tata have a good combination, but seems it did scare a lot of people who were trying to push for a certain plane. India may or may not buy F-16 but yes, with the amount of F-16 produced, there might be a lot of spares required, Further countries like Taiwan are looking for planes like F-16 which America is reluctant to sell. Can it be possible for Indian produced F-16 to be sold to Taiwan? I guess not, but not a bad thought.
Any nuimber of these F-16 /Gripen purchased thats potentially less nos of LCA Mk 1 and 2. When IAF purchases a plane we are looking at 30-40 years of life, which say from 2020 will be 2050-2060 so if the numbers is less, then putting the facility in India will not be worth it, and surely even the small numbers will hit the LCA. But with domestically produced engine, it could in theory help porduce AMCA and LCA (in small nos)

 

[Krusty]

Saar you said..

The idea is grab these technologies and give a boost to our indigenous industry.

1) Blk 70 is packed with the latest goodies. what technologies will be transferred thanks to the F16 deal?

2) among the list, how many cutting edge tech are we getting (the ones we lack)?

3) is there any source which talks about the first two points?

4) how many potential orders will this production line fulfil?

5) what about the J31 angle?

India needs a technological push, even USA gets its some of the critical components from outside their country.

Public private partnership in defence technologies is the next big thing and this is part of that initiative.

No one is saying IAF is going to induct F16 and there by it will have impact on the development of LCA.

The reports are only suggesting that we are getting production lines from LM and jobs.

Soon we will get production lines of other prominent jets like Rafale, etc....etc...,,

This whole deal rests on weather IAF will select the F16 or not.... this is the carrot that is being used.

I don't understand, everyone says tech will be shared for development of AMCA. Who said that? What is the tech that will be shared? Can we have a list? A source would be great of the potential input interms if cutting edge tech that is gained out of this F16 deal. Please link that interview sir.

F-16 production in India also supports thousands of Lockheed Martin and F-16 supplier jobs in the US, creates new manufacturing jobs in India, and positions Indian industry at the center of the most extensive fighter aircraft supply ecosystem in the world.

Read between the lines.... I am still saying this, nothing of any worth will be transferred. We don't need TOT for a 70s airframe. What we need is the latest avionics, Mission computers, terrain mapping systems, HMD, EW suite, engine tech (including the latest crystal blades and the alloys for the components) and so on for the AMCA. Straight question. Will we get these? If the answer is no, then this is nothing more than IT production support outsourcing equivalent of aviation industry which is simply screwdriver tech. We don't need it.

Its a means for businesses to keep the old (f16) production lines open without compromising their ability to produce latest tech (f35)

 

[tharun]

We had almost 477 junk fighters which are useless in present scenario.....We need atleast to replace half of it.

 

[airtel]

Please somebody Post the specifications of Block -70

 

[Krusty]

Please somebody Post the specifications of Block -70

They have it on LM website exclusive link for the proposed Indian version

Full specs and summary

Homepage for the Blk 70