Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

Ancient Indian

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https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....r-to-relocating-f-16-production-to-india/amp/

according to forbes , this deal was almost done last year ........
According to the report, we are doing government to government deal.

If 120 jets buying is required to shift the base from US to India, we need to bargain better.

I don't think this deal worth more than 40 f16s.

We are in the phase of building more trust and reliability b/w our two countries.
Hope it goes with out losing too much money.
 

brational

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there are many industrial houses in India who are supplying crucial components to Foreign OEMs. Godrej Aerospace has some expertise with aero-engines and supplying cryo engines to ISRO but our drdo chaps prefer to keep their heads under sand.
 

Kay

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Lockheed Martin is playing the jobs game. Tatas are playing the "Indian private aerospace" angle. IAF is playing the squadron strength angle. GOI is playing the tech transfer and geopolitical and strategic benefit angle. Indians are being taken for a ride.
If jobs need to be created, the same can be done in new production line for Tejas. Tatas can collaborate with HAL to create indigenous private aerospace industry.
 

Akshay Fenix

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Lockheed Martin is playing the jobs game. Tatas are playing the "Indian private aerospace" angle. IAF is playing the squadron strength angle. GOI is playing the tech transfer and geopolitical and strategic benefit angle. Indians are being taken for a ride.
If jobs need to be created, the same can be done in new production line for Tejas. Tatas can collaborate with HAL to create indigenous private aerospace industry.
So whos stopping HAL from opening up more production lines? They asked for third production line and government gave the go signal.

Tejas is still not ready, which is why HAL is not opening up new PLs. MK1A is still in development stage, it will be ready by 2020.
 

WARREN SS

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Lol and seen all pages lol sum fanboys comparing top notch F-16s block with

Low end fighter like LCA

yes that actually Is LCA as project

Low radar coverage

Underpowered engine

Low combat radius seriously

Pathetic rate of production

Uncertainty in future upgrades

Low performance fight that forced into n IAF just in the name of indigenous emotional shit

I will was few billions for our boys in IAF who still forced operate 60 era mig-21s
 

Kay

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So whos stopping HAL from opening up more production lines? They asked for third production line and government gave the go signal.

Tejas is still not ready, which is why HAL is not opening up new PLs. MK1A is still in development stage, it will be ready by 2020.
MK1A is not ready, but MK1 will be ready this year, and it is better than the Mig-21 that we are operating today.
If we allow F16 in our inventory, Tejas may well be the last indigenous fighter built. One can look at the British aerospace industry for evidence.
 

mayfair

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The deal is to manufacture F-16 in India. It never said IAF will buy them. Even LM website also says same.
Why else would LM be willing to shift F-16 production to India if we are not buying it? It makes no sense for them, especially since they claim that component suppliers will most likely remain in US. This is the same reason that Dassault offered to "transfer" MIrage 2000 production line to India if we bought 126 Mirage 2000-5s. This is why Airbus opened a line in China, to sell to Chinese airline comapnies.

What posters here going on about is worst case scenario. Why would we shelve Tejas if some american co runs some assembling unit in India? Don't we have enough confidence in IAF? IAF always buys best products. They are very patriotic.
Members have valid concerns and the grounding of indigenous product is not some unfounded fear, but rooted in reality. Do look up what happened to Marut in favour of screwdrivergiri imports. IAF has put up extreme and sometimes unreasonable requirements for LCA and are you aware when Mirage 2000s were first inducted, the plane could barely fire a gun? During MRCA trials, Eurofighter was permitted to test their AESA radar on a bloody helicopter!! Can you even imagine something like this for Tejas?

IAF has a hard-on for shiny imported toys at the expense of indigenous products, whom they derisively label Khadi Gram Udyog.

The decision is with IAF. They can chose their option. No need to kill healthy competition. If HAL has enough confidence in its products, it shouldn't worry about this competition.
But this is what IAF is hell bent on. Just have a look at the step motherly treatment to Tejas, in contrast to fawning admiration for Western/Roosi products. We have successive air marshals run down the Tejas programme, Matheshwaran (who has no joined Reliance and involved in Dassault partnership for Rafales) called it a three-legged Cheetah. Our last chief said of Rafales that "There is no plan B"

This deal is more to do with appeasing Trump and at the same time squeezing whatever benefits we can from it. Sometimes we may not get any benefit from this single deal.
Trump could have been appeased in many other ways- place orders for more C-130Js, P8Is and even C-17s if possible. As you said, it's difficult to see what benefits we get from this deal instead of investing in LCA and AMCA for the future.

Look at these three as separate ones. Most of our posters here have no business sense or have vetted interests.
Or accept that people can have different views.
 

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According to the report, we are doing government to government deal.

If 120 jets buying is required to shift the base from US to India, we need to bargain better.

I don't think this deal worth more than 40 f16s.

We are in the phase of building more trust and reliability b/w our two countries.
Hope it goes with out losing too much money.

i think the deal is of minimum 100 f16.....but to my undetstanding once the production start it may keep going to around 250.....looking at block70 specifications its better then any other aircraft with iaf presently have ...
 

mayfair

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Lol and seen all pages lol sum fanboys comparing top notch F-16s block with

Low end fighter like LCA

yes that actually Is LCA as project

Low radar coverage

Underpowered engine

Low combat radius seriously

Pathetic rate of production

Uncertainty in future upgrades

Low performance fight that forced into n IAF just in the name of indigenous emotional shit

I will was few billions for our boys in IAF who still forced operate 60 era mig-21s
LCA is hardly low end. Neither are F-16s top notch in todays context. Moreover, they are two different planes.

The biggest problem with F-16s is that they are at a development dead end. Nothing knew can be added or nothing new can be learned by assembling them locally.

LCA is an indigenous product, can be customised, improved, re-designed, upgraded, embellished far more easily and flexibly. Not to mention that valuable experience gained in designing and manufacturing a truly indigenous plane.

We have been doing screwdrivergiri for ages and where has it gotten us? Why go for more of the same?
 

Akshay Fenix

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MK1A is not ready, but MK1 will be ready this year, and it is better than the Mig-21 that we are operating today.
If we allow F16 in our inventory, Tejas may well be the last indigenous fighter built. One can look at the British aerospace industry for evidence.
Yeah right :bs: they have been saying this since 2014.

Mk1 is not indigenous or should I say the major component which is the engine is imported from US. Why do you want to buy 200-400 fighters which has American engines in them.
Hence this is why even IAF does not want them and only 40 are being ordered, 20 out of them being prototypes.

Mk1A has Kaveri engine in them and this is why 80 are being ordered but they will be only ready by 2020. And more will be ordered when we reach 24 units per year.

Now think for a second which is better out of two. And this is why HAL is not opening up new production lines.
 

smestarz

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As you said Tejas is not low end or F-16 high end.
F-16 is at fag end of its life, and LCA is a bit too late,

LCA did depend on Kaveri engine and which was one of the reason for its delay.. Engine development for a plane are reaching stagnation, with nothing really being developed that is having a generation leap. Now the engine companies can increase some thrust, but the main focus now seems to be on reliability and efficiency. That is the norm to go. And for this its important to master newer allows and materials.

The price difference between F-16 Block 70 and Tejas will be huge mainly due to indigenous content in Tejas. Further it might be more easy for India to customise Tejas as per its requirements, like adding new missile etc, Which on an F-16 might be more difficult.

I am all for Tejas, I think the GoI should be bold and tell IAF, its Tejas or bust., Thats it, And have to ram 10-15 squadrons down their throat. Further it would be better for GoI to seriously consider Army Aviation, thus the army for its immediate need for air support does not have to depend on local IAF units which might have another priority. Anyway IAF top brass are always acting like Divas .. and its high time that Army gets its own limited Air power with say LCH and Tejas to start things up. I dont think IAF will allow it, but then these two projects are not really part of wishlist of our IMPORTED AIR FORCE.


LCA is hardly low end. Neither are F-16s top notch in todays context. Moreover, they are two different planes.

The biggest problem with F-16s is that they are at a development dead end. Nothing knew can be added or nothing new can be learned by assembling them locally.

LCA is an indigenous product, can be customised, improved, re-designed, upgraded, embellished far more easily and flexibly. Not to mention that valuable experience gained in designing and manufacturing a truly indigenous plane.

We have been doing screwdrivergiri for ages and where has it gotten us? Why go for more of the same?
 

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saab is reluctent for a jv.....

According to Defence analysts, Saab India is trying to put together consortium of small aerospace companies and several hundred more companies for the supply chain which can create Aerospace ecosystem in Private defence sector in India which can benefit future military projects too but critics also see has a ploy by Saab India to maintain total control of Gripen E and other Technologies of the aircraft within the local subsidiary company fully owned by Saab. Saab has promised to build what it calls a world-class fighter jet facility in India if it wins the order but core parts of the Gripen E planes will be built in factories fully owned by Saab, other components will be manufactured jointly with other local partners.

http://idrw.org/will-saab-dial-adani-for-make-in-india-gripen-e/ .
 
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scatterStorm

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what ecosystem?In joint statement they have clearly said that thousands of supplier jobs will remain in USA.India(TATA) will only assemble imported kits with some tires etc sources from India
Whom we are kidding, the rednecks have been greasing the palms since the Modi's push. Most of the truth is hidden from general public, which you exactly mentioned correctly.

F16 is good jet, but at what cost, 5th gen jet's will be a tough nut to crack, the only benefit we are getting is how to develop a good assembly line. These deals comes with kind of traps, so we better be ready to take the biting. But I hope this is the last JV in military aviation we sign up for, especially from US of A.
 

scatterStorm

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Availability is a different scenario, but currently we do have these many squad.
Then the other factor is that a sqad can range from 2 Min to 18 aircrafts, these numbers cannot be calculated that way.

Every Aircraft has different availability rate. Currently we do have 33 Squads
I understand the availability rates, as of what I've read on DFI threads somebody mentioned that we are getting good at making availability for MKIs but Mig-29s, Mig-21 Bison's, Jag's etc they need some serious ground work.
IMHO, hiccups will occur but at our current dire situation, I'd say 28 at best are ready for a fight.

A friend at Loheygaon airforce base, currently undergoing combat jet training has said to me and I quote, "we aren't ready yet, cause there aren't many birds fit enough to take up a war", and in his own words and I quote again, "Tejas was inducted in the IAF to make some of the top brasses, and people higher on the food chain happy, we at IAF think it's just an hour of the need, it's no special plane at all, but a indigenous manufacturing have high hope for us in future".
 

Tarun Kumar

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A fighter contract is not one contract but multiple contracts rolled into one. Let us analyze this F16 deal and we can easily work out the costs. I believe this deal will consist of following sub contracts
1) manufacture of main F16 structure and spare parts: This part will be in Rupees and hugely beneficial to us as Tata will be doing bulk of the work but Lockheed will take royalties every year for sure
2) Manufacture of EW systems, radars and their spare parts: On this I am 100% sure that not one part will be manufactured in india and all components will come to India in finished form and will be screwed into main body.Moreover spare parts exports from US to India is subject to Congressional oversight.
3) Repair and maintenance of radars and EW systems: here also I am not sure how much Indian engineers will be involved. We will have to rely on US engineers and make them stay in expensive 7 star facilities paid by Tata (reimbursed by GOI) for their period of stay in India.
4) Manufacture of engine and spare parts: Same as 2)
5) Repair of engines: Same as 3 although some basic repairs may be done by tata engineers.
6) Manufacture of weapons and spare parts: Totally under US control and Congressional oversight.

So except for point 1) there is nothing MII about F16 deal and from cost angle point 1) is only 25-30% of aircraft cost. Extrapolating from F16 deals with bahrain, qatar, iraq my own estimate of 150 F16 Block 70 jets is USD 20-25bn at least since we will be doing bulk purchase of engines, radars, sensors from US suppliers in dollars (and LM will get a cut from those suppliers). Now my question is what is the tearing hurry to spend USD20-25bn and jeopardize FGFA, rafale and our own AMCA. Moreover for mere USD5bn we can have an excellent AD network over China borders. This deal will forever end any chance of domestic ecosystem for fighter jets and will be a disaster for India. If LM can share key technologies for F16 radars, sensors etc with tata, I am all for spending USD25bn and even more as we can involve tata in AMCA but no country pays USD25bn for screwdriving. My suggestion is:
1) Buy 2 squadrons each of Su30MKI and Mig29: Cost USD5-6bn and 80 aircrafts are added immediately.
2) Strengthen AD network on borders by building more Akash/Barak NG systems: Cost 4 bn USD
3) Focus on LCA expansion and AMCA as national mission with public private partnership: Cost USD10bn+ and reward is infinite
4) Wait for some more time and buy 2 more squads of rafales for USD 5-6bn

The latter approach will give far more bang for buck than buying F16 and spending our precious forex while getting zilch in return except fattening LM and Tata bank balance along with those bureaucrats, politicos and AF officials and returning to this cycle after 2 more decades.
 

Butter Chicken

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Whom we are kidding, the rednecks have been greasing the palms since the Modi's push. Most of the truth is hidden from general public, which you exactly mentioned correctly.

F16 is good jet, but at what cost, 5th gen jet's will be a tough nut to crack, the only benefit we are getting is how to develop a good assembly line. These deals comes with kind of traps, so we better be ready to take the biting. But I hope this is the last JV in military aviation we sign up for, especially from US of A.
Mr. Modi cannot be greased.He is true nationalist.But he may be getting misled by some babus.
There is no reason that on one hand we are truly jointly developing FGFA with Russia and on the other hand will settle for some screwdriver assembly for 70's fighter
 

scatterStorm

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A fighter contract is not one contract but multiple contracts rolled into one. Let us analyze this F16 deal and we can easily work out the costs. I believe this deal will consist of following sub contracts
1) manufacture of main F16 structure and spare parts: This part will be in Rupees and hugely beneficial to us as Tata will be doing bulk of the work but Lockheed will take royalties every year for sure
2) Manufacture of EW systems, radars and their spare parts: On this I am 100% sure that not one part will be manufactured in india and all components will come to India in finished form and will be screwed into main body.Moreover spare parts exports from US to India is subject to Congressional oversight.
3) Repair and maintenance of radars and EW systems: here also I am not sure how much Indian engineers will be involved. We will have to rely on US engineers and make them stay in expensive 7 star facilities paid by Tata (reimbursed by GOI) for their period of stay in India.
4) Manufacture of engine and spare parts: Same as 2)
5) Repair of engines: Same as 3 although some basic repairs may be done by tata engineers.
6) Manufacture of weapons and spare parts: Totally under US control and Congressional oversight.

So except for point 1) there is nothing MII about F16 deal and from cost angle point 1) is only 25-30% of aircraft cost. Extrapolating from F16 deals with bahrain, qatar, iraq my own estimate of 150 F16 Block 70 jets is USD 20-25bn at least since we will be doing bulk purchase of engines, radars, sensors from US suppliers in dollars (and LM will get a cut from those suppliers). Now my question is what is the tearing hurry to spend USD20-25bn and jeopardize FGFA, rafale and our own AMCA. Moreover for mere USD5bn we can have an excellent AD network over China borders. This deal will forever end any chance of domestic ecosystem for fighter jets and will be a disaster for India. If LM can share key technologies for F16 radars, sensors etc with tata, I am all for spending USD25bn and even more as we can involve tata in AMCA but no country pays USD25bn for screwdriving. My suggestion is:
1) Buy 2 squadrons each of Su30MKI and Mig29: Cost USD5-6bn and 80 aircrafts are added immediately.
2) Strengthen AD network on borders by building more Akash/Barak NG systems: Cost 4 bn USD
3) Focus on LCA expansion and AMCA as national mission with public private partnership: Cost USD10bn+ and reward is infinite
4) Wait for some more time and buy 2 more squads of rafales for USD 5-6bn

The latter approach will give far more bang for buck than buying F16 and spending our precious forex while getting zilch in return except fattening LM and Tata bank balance along with those bureaucrats, politicos and AF officials and returning to this cycle after 2 more decades.

It's the need of the hour, we want to learn how to make good production facilities and US ain't going cheap on us, especially in Trump era the right wing is hard pressed on placing more jobs in US. IMHO it's a bad timing.
 

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It's the need of the hour, we want to learn how to make good production facilities and US ain't going cheap on us, especially in Trump era the right wing is hard pressed on placing more jobs in US. IMHO it's a bad timing.
the figures that are emerging is 15b$ for 200 aircrafts.....75m$ per f16 block70 is good....we may see the real deal during modi visit to US...
 

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Mr. Modi cannot be greased.He is true nationalist.But he may be getting misled by some babus.
There is no reason that on one hand we are truly jointly developing FGFA with Russia and on the other hand will settle for some screwdriver assembly for 70's fighter
we are not jointly developing fgfa with russia.......everything is in place.....tata+lm for f16.....and for twin engine , reliance with rafale or tata with boeing....
 

Tarun Kumar

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the figures that are emerging is 15b$ for 200 aircrafts.....75m$ per f16 block70 is good....we may see the real deal during modi visit to US...
That would be without spares and weapons. Add the 2 and you will pay USD25-30bn for sure.
 

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