IAF Mirage 2000

[Assassin 2.0]

Indians should be thinking about cutting the lifeline of upgrades for PAF F-16 by purchasing the entire F-21 assembly. No US company will like to sell more to PAF afterwards

GOI is not good with blackmailing ( Russian blackmailing was the reason why india started to look out of the box for defence equipments) . Suppose one American company updated PAKI F-16. Whole American defence sales to india will suffer. And India's defence purchase capacity is Big.
Remember today F-21 is getting rejected because of Pakistani are having that jet and American sold them to pakis for deterrence against india. That's why they lost 24 billion $ deal.

And guess what india will be 2nd biggest purchase power on earth by 2024 and seeing trade war both Chinese and Americans want to get india on there side.

( what are your sources saying that US is updating/negotiations are happening for Pakistani F-16?)

 

[Wisemarko]

GOI is not good with blackmailing

I see that but they are getting better. Always hated US sales to Pakistan.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I see that but they are getting better. Always hated US sales to Pakistan.

Nope GOI is getting more meaner and meaner.. In dealing blackmailing.

India is Damm good in fighting court case (we are fighting multiple cases in WTO. Recently india also won case against US in WTO ) stalling acts and to some extent deal making.
RN India's fingers are in ghee.

 

[Neptune]

Mirage 2000 has nothing to match AMRAAM 120c5 c7.

So its not a match for the F16.

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True, the Mica has much less range then the AMRAAM 120c5 but it’s a very advanced missile with high hit probability; admittedly though the Mirages radar also has far less range, less then half the range of the F-16s APG if my memory is correct. But radar range doesn’t matter as much as missile range. Realistically the AMRAAM 120C5 would be lucky to get a kill at anywhere close to 100km, in MICA’s case it would be lucky to get a kill at 70kms.

AWACS would be the deciding factor and this is where Indian AWACS pulls ahead of Pakistan in both quality and quantity. The Falcons+Netra is better and more numerous then anything Pakistan has. The upgraded Mirages India has appear to have an excellent defense suite as well as DASH weapon helmet/sensor system. With numerical superiority, AWACS and good tactics the upgraded Mirages can certainly shoot down Pakistani F-16s. The Pakistanis showed they had terrible situational awareness even with AWACS airborne on the 27th. If India ever gets the Meteor for the their Mirages, then the Indian Mirages would have the edge over Pakistan F-16s.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

True, the Mica has much less range then the AMRAAM 120c5 but it’s a very advanced missile with high hit probability; admittedly though the Mirages radar also has far less range, less then half the range of the F-16s APG if my memory is correct. But radar range doesn’t matter as much as missile range. Realistically the AMRAAM 120C5 would be lucky to get a kill at anywhere close to 100km, in MICA’s case it would be lucky to get a kill at 70kms.

AWACS would be the deciding factor and this is where Indian AWACS pulls ahead of Pakistan in both quality and quantity. The Falcons+Netra is better and more numerous then anything Pakistan has. The upgraded Mirages India has appear to have an excellent defense suite as well as DASH weapon helmet/sensor system. With numerical superiority, AWACS and good tactics the upgraded Mirages can certainly shoot down Pakistani F-16s. The Pakistanis showed they had terrible situational awareness even with AWACS airborne on the 27th. If India ever gets the Meteor for the their Mirages, then the Indian Mirages would have the edge over Pakistan F-16s.

I wonder if Amraams can be mated with the Mirages.

Problem is that Right now the Mirage is outranged by F16. A f16 can fire a 120C5 at dmax, force the mirage to take defensive action,while the mirage wont have a firing solution. This same thing happened to the MKIs.

We seriously need our front line fighters to be not outranged by PAF.

PAF has 4 Erieye, 2 on order. They also have 4 ZDK 03.

India has 3 Phalcons and 2 Netra(may be 3).

So pakistan actually has quantitative superiority.





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[Bhurki]

PAF has 4 Erieye, 2 on order. They also have 4 ZDK 03.

India has 3 Phalcons and 2 Netra(may be 3).

So pakistan actually has quantitative superiority.

Don't count out 91/92N6E, 96L6E of the IAF S400. They may be stationary but their long ranges and mobility still make them deadly due to constricted geographic width of pakistan. Also, having their own firing solution is an advantage too..

 

[Armand2REP]

Don't count out 91/92N6E, 96L6E of the IAF S400. They may be stationary but their long ranges and mobility still make them deadly due to constricted geographic width of pakistan. Also, having their own firing solution is an advantage too..

It would be a risk to station them close to the Porki border. They are vulnerable to low level penetration strikes.

 

[Armand2REP]

I wonder if Amraams can be mated with the Mirages.

Problem is that Right now the Mirage is outranged by F16. A f16 can fire a 120C5 at dmax, force the mirage to take defensive action,while the mirage wont have a firing solution. This same thing happened to the MKIs.

The upgraded M2000s have DRFM jamming capability that can spoof an AMRAAM. The way DRFM works is it outputs several decoy returns making one aircraft look like 8-10. That greatly lowers the hit probability of the AMRAAM to 10-15%. The MICA IR is impossible to spoof by F-16 jammers, one shot one kill.

 

[Neptune]

I wonder if Amraams can be mated with the Mirages.

Problem is that Right now the Mirage is outranged by F16. A f16 can fire a 120C5 at dmax, force the mirage to take defensive action,while the mirage wont have a firing solution. This same thing happened to the MKIs.

We seriously need our front line fighters to be not outranged by PAF.

PAF has 4 Erieye, 2 on order. They also have 4 ZDK 03.

India has 3 Phalcons and 2 Netra(may be 3).

So pakistan actually has quantitative superiority.





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Pakistanis fires those AMRAAMS became they had an altitude advantage and AWACS. The lower the altitude the less range a missile has-hence the SU-30s not firing. If the roles were reversed and India had 4 or 8 SU-30s versus 2 F-16s, those SU-30s had an altitude advantage and India had AWACS, not Pakistan then those F-16s would be busy evading R-77s.

I’m also certain at least 1 Erieye was destroyed on the ground, it also does not match the falcon AWACS in situational awareness or loitering time and It certainly doesn’t have a better radar.

 

[Neptune]

Double post. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Bhurki]

It would be a risk to station them close to the Porki border. They are vulnerable to low level penetration strikes.

91/92N6E have 400 km of search radius against airbreathing targets. Placing it even 150 km from the border ( for comparison Ambala AFS is 220 km from border) still covers atleast 200 km depth of all length of pakistan.

 

[Armand2REP]

91/92N6E have 400 km of search radius against airbreathing targets. Placing it even 150 km from the border ( for comparison Ambala AFS is 220 km from border) still covers atleast 200 km depth of all length of pakistan.

Ground based radar is limited by the horizon, it can detect far at high altitudes but at low level it can see nothing.

 

[Bhurki]

Ground based radar is limited by the horizon, it can detect far at high altitudes but at low level it can see nothing.

Not really .... UHF/VHF use bouncing radar off ionosphere, and its the depreciating value of returns that limit their horizon rather than line-of-sight intrusion.
Thats how long range early warning radars work too...

 

[Neptune]

I wonder if Amraams can be mated with the Mirages.

Problem is that Right now the Mirage is outranged by F16. A f16 can fire a 120C5 at dmax, force the mirage to take defensive action,while the mirage wont have a firing solution. This same thing happened to the MKIs.

We seriously need our front line fighters to be not outranged by PAF.

PAF has 4 Erieye, 2 on order. They also have 4 ZDK 03.

India has 3 Phalcons and 2 Netra(may be 3).

So pakistan actually has quantitative superiority.





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I forgot to cover your other point. Yes AMRAAMS can be integrated to Mirages, India got Israelis to integrate R-73 onto their Mirages but the US would probably never allow it and if India did it without permission the US might use punitive action against India.

The question becomes why? India will have Meteors on the Rafales which have far superior range to Pakistani AMRAAMS, if anything this should be the weapon upgrade for Mirages. To add to that India has plenty of other aircraft that carry long range R-77s. A few SU-30s alone blunted a much larger force of F-16s supposed by AWACS, once Rafales are inducted and operate along with upgraded Mirages and Mig-29s as well as S-400s the Pakistanis would be at a terrible disadvantage.

If India wanted to down an F-16 or even a few F-16s they are more then capable of doing it currently. They would just have to carefully plan out how and where they would attack and once India launches enough fighter aircraft to create air dominance they would have to employ AWACS and other support aircraft to give India the extra edge. It’s the same formula Pakistan used. The problem with this is afterwards India would be on edge expecting Pakistan to respond and the frightening thing about Pakistan is that they don’t care, they will throw everything they have at India, they will cover up losses and inflate or create their own ‘victories’ for propaganda purposes, they then would use hybrid warfare and send terrorists to strike India. They do this to everyone, Israel’s, Soviets, Indians and even to Americans, they train and harbor terrorists to strike even Americans, the same people that give billions in aid and weapons to them.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really .... UHF/VHF use bouncing radar off ionosphere, and its the depreciating value of returns that limit their horizon rather than line-of-sight intrusion.
Thats how long range early warning radars work too...

Not really, it takes a very large radar installation to do that which is certainly not within the capability of S400.

 

[Bhurki]

Not really, it takes a very large radar installation to do that which is certainly not within the capability of S400.

What do you mean by that? Have you seen the size of gravestone?

 

[Armand2REP]

What do you mean by that? Have you seen the size of gravestone?

The radar you are talking about looks like this...

 

[Assassin 2.0]

The radar you are talking about looks like this...

Pakistan have no technology which can invade s-400.
That said nothing is full proof.

S-400 will be connected to India's security grid networks which means if we don't use S-400 closely on borders still we can use Akash spider s-125 and s-200. And if they come to deep it would be s-400 which will tackle with them.

And we are forgetting MR-SAM which is there to fix medium range and gap and will be used closer to the borders.MR-sam is build to fix some gap which we leave on medium range air security.

Technically s-400 main job is to protect indian cities on whole rather than protecting just borders.

 

[Armand2REP]

Pakistan have no technology which can invade s-400.
That said nothing is full proof.

The S400 uses line of sight radar, it doesn't use back scatter off of the atmosphere like that huge radar I showed. It doesn't have the power which takes as much as a small city to power. S400 is vulnerable to low penetration strike which is why Russians always assign Pantsir to protect it but after Israel decimated Syrian Pantsir, Russians have gone back to the drawing board.

S-400 will be connected to India's security grid networks which means if we don't use S-400 closely on borders still we can use Akash spider s-125 and s-200. And if they come to deep it would be s-400 which will tackle with them.

Much of the SAMs on the border are of Israeli origin and they do not like Russian made equipment. Mi-17V5 for instance... they aren't giving the source codes to integrate it with an S400. The US won't allow it.

And we are forgetting MR-SAM which is there to fix medium range and gap and will be used closer to the borders.MR-sam is build to fix some gap which we leave on medium range air security.

That is another SAM of Israeli origin that only talks with other Israeli SAMs. This is why India must make a universal data link and install it on everything. As France goes through the Scorpion upgrade to make everything networked, India also needs a similar revolution in military affairs.

The single greatest problem with the Indian military is that things don't talk to each other and they must rely on verbal communication and unlayered pictures of the battlespace. You have one monitor of what the Israeli stuff sees, another monitor of what the Russian stuff sees, then another monitor of what the Indian stuff sees. It is a bunch of jumbled networks that don't talk to each other and relies on human interface to try to decipher and relay that information.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Much of the SAMs on the border are of Israeli origin and they do not like Russian made equipment. Mi-17V5 for instance... they aren't giving the source codes to integrate it with an S400. The US won't allow it.

Wrong MI-17V5 are flying on the border daily along with several different Russian origin jets Israeli systems don't shoot them down daily it was because of mistake by pilot and the operator.

Akash system is also deployed on border in heavy amounts and new orders for akash system are already placed.

Nop. I have listened to tons of debate about s-400 in india how fast we can dissolve it etc.
The most beneficial thing with s-400 it willl be connected to IAF already in place.
It will be like su-30 in which french Russian and Israeli systems are working together joined by indian mission control.

Just like alll these air defence system will be connected to indian mission control which doesn't mean Israeli and Russians have to exchange there coders they both have understanding with india and will connect them to our system which doesn't showcase there secrets.

MR-SAM is specially designed to fix medium range s-400 flaws.


This security grid will have all small range air defence system. Then MR - sam and then s-400 and India's home grown anti nuclear missile system.

AFNet incorporates the latest traffic transportation technology in form of IP (Internet Protocol) packets over the network using Multi Protocol Label Switching (MPLS). A large VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) layer with stringent quality of service enforcement will facilitate robust, high quality voice, video and conferencing solutions.[7]

Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations will ride the AFNet backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. Subsequent integration with other services networks and civil radars will provide an integrated Air Situation Picture to operators to carry out Air Defence role.[7]

AFNet will prove to be an effective force multiplier for intelligence analysis, mission planning and control, post-mission feedback and related activities like maintenance, logistics and administration. A comprehensive design with multi-layer security precautions for “Defence in Depth” have been planned by incorporating encryption technologies, Intrusion Prevention Systems to ensure the resistance of the IT system against information manipulation and eavesdropping.[7] The network is secured with a host of advanced state-of-the-art encryption technologies. It is designed for high reliability with redundancy built into the network design itself.[1]

The AFNet is also capable of transmitting video from unmanned surveillance aircraft(UAV), pictures from airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) to decision makers on the ground and providing intelligence inputs from remote areas.[6]

The AFNet is also expected to facilitate accelerated economic growth by providing radio frequency spectrum for telecommunication purposes. AFNET will be the largest Multi-protocol Label Switching (MPLS) network in the defence segment.

Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) is an automated command and control system for AD planned by the Indian Air Force. IACCS operations will ride the AFNET backbone integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes. Subsequent integration with other services networks and civil radars will provide an integrated Air Situation Picture to operators to carry out AD role.[9]

Through the IACCS, IAF will connect all of its space, air and ground assets quickly, for total awareness of a region. This will offer connectivity for all the ground platforms and airborne platforms, as a part of the network centricity of IAF