IAF Mirage 2000

[p2prada]

dude ,just by logic ,why would IAF thorw its best pilots and the most experienced in Mig 21 and Mirage 2000 ,wouldnt IAF like its best pilots to fly the best aircraft in its fleet
and if that is not enough , i recently spoke to Air vice Marchal Aluwalia (retired) ,he lives in wellington ,he says that after passing out through NDA ,IAF fighter cadets go to AFA academy in hyderabad,the best pilot get to train on HAWKs ,and others train on Kiran MAK 2 ,then are given Mirage 2000 Mig 27 ,Mig 21 for 2 years and then they gradtuate to MKI

MKI is very high performance aircraft which needs considerable flying experince before you can even sit in MKI cockpit , there are new pilots but they also have experience

Old news. I don't know when you spoke to him. We have enough Hawks and enough MKIs. But, not enough Mirage-2000s and Mig-29s. Earlier only a handful of rookies underwent training on Hawk and the Mig-21 before going to the MKI. Once the Hawk were inducted in sufficient numbers the pilots directly progressed to the MKI. Initially, the Senior officers for the MKI were selected from the bison squadrons. And some are still transferred to the MKIs. However, majority of the MKI pilots at the lowest ranks are rookies.

We have enough simulators for the MKIs now. Pilots get plenty of flying hours on it before graduating.

 

[bengalraider]

French Defence Minister in Delhi: political push from Paris for upgrade of Mirage-2000

Broadsword learns that the deal is likely to be closed at about US $1.8 billion. Thales is bringing down the price by involving Indian industry
Broadsword: French Defence Minister in Delhi: political push from Paris for upgrade of Mirage-2000
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 05 Nov 09

French President, Nikolas Sarkozy, has thrown his weight behind the the Rs 10,000 crore bid by French company, Thales, to upgrade the Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighter fleet. Sarkozy’s defence minister, Hervé Morin, in New Delhi for a day, made his pitch this morning to Defence Minister AK Antony, telling him that President Sarkozy is keen on signing the deal when he visits India early next year.

Addressing a press conference after his meetings in South Block, Mr Morin revealed that he discussed outstanding procurement cases, including the Mirage-2000 upgrade, with his Indian counterpart. Morin said, “We are hoping that some of the procurement cases that are under way between India and France are finalised by the time Sarkozy visits.”

Through two years of negotiations, French aerospace major, Thales, and the IAF have been unable to agree on a price for outfitting India’s 51 Mirage-2000s with new radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and onboard computers, which will make the aircraft battle worthy for another 15 years. From an initial offer of Rs 13,500 crores (US $2.9 billion), Thales came down to Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion). But even that is exorbitant; the IAF has let it be known that, instead of spending Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) on each Mirage-2000, it would prefer to buy brand new fighters.

That hard bargaining, it seems, is working. Thales is looking to reduce its price by using Indian suppliers for a significant share of work and components for the upgrade. The IAF now believes that a deal could be close. A top IAF official, who is close to the negotiations, told Business Standard on condition of anonymity, “Thales is climbing down from its high horse and we will meet them halfway. The French president has given his officials a diktat that the Mirage-2000 upgrade deal must be buttoned up this year.”

That urgency is fully endorsed by French officials. One highly placed French industrial source asks rhetorically, “If the upgrade deal is not finalised, what else is there for Sarkozy to sign in Delhi?”

So far, during negotiations, Thales has argued that if India insisted on a cheaper upgrade for the Mirage-2000 fleet, it should be prepared to upgrade fewer systems. If, for example, the IAF was willing to upgrade only the weapons systems, the cost would be considerably cheaper. But the IAF insisted on a full upgrade.

Now, with Thales looking to source from India, there could be rich pickings for Indian avionics manufacturers like Samtel Thales Avionics, the joint venture that NCR-based Samtel Display Systems has set up with Thales. Components developed in France by Thales, will be manufactured cheaply in Samtel Thales Avionics’ high-tech facility near Ghaziabad, allowing Thales to lower its bid significantly.

Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, Samtel Display Systems, confirmed to Business Standard that, “Samtel Thales Avionics is going to be a major partner in the Mirage-2000 upgrade. We have negotiated with Thales for doing a number of work packages in the upgrade. This will also benefit Thales in meeting the offset liabilities that will arise out of this deal.”

For IAF planners the participation of Indian companies, including Samtel Thales Avionics, is a welcome prospect since they would be able to maintain and repair the upgraded avionics in India. The Indian companies would also handle “obsolescence management”, which involves redesigning avionics cards that need upgrading.

Thales was already on track to build avionics systems in Samtel Thales Avionics for a variety of Indian aircraft. These include the technologically advanced TopSight-I, the Helmet Mounted Sight Display (HMD) that Indian Navy MiG-29K pilots will use while operating from aircraft carriers.

 

[bengalraider]

Mirage math: Israel better than France ​

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Mirage math: Israel better than France
SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, Dec. 10: Israel is close to swinging an order to upgrade French-origin Mirage 2000 aircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) despite France’s charm offensive in hosting the Indian military on the Champs Elysees.

Tel Aviv has offered to upgrade the frontline fighter aircraft, of which the IAF has three squadrons, at rates nearly 40 per cent less than the price quoted by the French.

Israel, whose chief of defence staff returns to Tel Aviv after visiting New Delhi this week for the first time since diplomatic relations were established in 1992, is also favoured to win an order for 18 quick-reaction surface-to-air missiles (QR-SAMs) from the Indian Army that could cost more than Rs 2,000 crore.

The possible loss of the Mirage 2000 upgrade bid will hurt the French the most.

In July this year, France had hosted Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and, in a rare honour, contingents of the Indian armed forces led the Bastille Day parade. Last week, French defence minister Herve Morin was in New Delhi courting the Indian defence establishment.

Early next month, President Nicolas Sarkozy could be back in India with wife Carla Bruni whom he has promised to take to Taj Mahal. Sarkozy visited India in January last year minus Carla.

Defence ministry sources said the delegation led by Israeli defence services chief, General Gabi Ashkenazi, made presentations to the top brass, including the chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, on the Mirage 2000 upgrade that Israel Aircraft Industries would carry out in collaboration with other firms.

In back-of-the envelope calculations, the cost of the Israeli bid totals Rs 96 crore per aircraft while the French bid is worth Rs 152 crore. The IAF has at least 51 Mirage 2000s.

The upgrade would include superior avionics and electronic warfare systems that would extend the service life of the aircraft by 15 years.

Although French companies Dassault Aviation and Thales are the original equipment suppliers, the price quoted, say defence ministry sources, may be put to better use by ordering new aircraft.

The French have already beaten down prices and there is a possibility they will go even lower. They are keen that the deal be done at the time of Sarkozy’s visit, though similar hopes during Singh’s Paris visit in July were dashed.

For the Spyder QR-SAM missile systems, the army may sign a contract within a month. The IAF has already contracted the Israelis for the systems.

The close-range missile defence systems are meant as a protective shield for the army’s critical immovable assets.

 

[ppgj]

am really surprised why they don't go for israeli option for the upgrade. they are leaders in this area. have upgrade suits for a number of russian products. i won't be surprised if they are as good with mirages.
remember they put their own stuff on their crafts imported from even USA.
while india saves 40% which can be put in LCA development which will even replace the mirages in 5 yrs timeline when LCA mark 2 is online.
no point giving into the french when we can buy a brand new aircraft with the unit upgrade amount.

 

[rakesh]

Why India want to upgrade the Mirage-2000 in the same rate we can buy new aircraft?

 

[A.V.]

Why India want to upgrade the Mirage-2000 in the same rate we can buy new aircraft?

buying a new aircraft is not the solution it takes years to master a particular brand in terms of flying and maintenance so when a new aircraft or model comes in we need to start from scratch , why not upgrade the mirages which has a very good record with the InAF in service
israel is a good choice but the indians are holding back to see how much france bends

 

[bengalraider]

Why India want to upgrade the Mirage-2000 in the same rate we can buy new aircraft?

Because upgrade deals unlike new buys do not take forever to complete.i.e the defense ministry takes a lot more time to buy new stuff than it takes to upgrade older equipment.

 

[BunBunCake]

Guys, may I know which will be better in combat, the IAF's Mirage 2000-5's or the Pakistani Mirage III and Mirage V ROSE III's?
I've seen somewhere about superior avionics, and things like that for PAF's Mirage Upgrade.

EDIT: Some kind of analysis on this? thanks.

 

[ahmedsid]

Guys, may I know which will be better in combat, the IAF's Mirage 2000-5's or the Pakistani Mirage III and Mirage V ROSE III's?
I've seen somewhere about superior avionics, and things like that for PAF's Mirage Upgrade.

EDIT: Some kind of analysis on this? thanks.

They cant be compared, Mirages have Full BVR capability while the PAF Mirages have limited to none. Besides, they are retired world over and PAF bought all left overs from various countries, coz it fits their domain. Mirage 2000 is any day superior to PAF Mirages and I am no fanboy! Just the Fact, I need not publish specifications to counter it.

 

[SajeevJino]

Upgraded Mirage 2000 undertakes maiden flight in France​

Under IAF's over Rs 10,000 crore modernisation programme, the first Mirage 2000, upgraded by its manufacturer, has successfully completed it maiden flight at an air base in France.

India had signed an upgrade programme worth over Rs 10,000 crore with the French manufacturer Dassault Aviation for upgrading the fleet of its Mirage 2000 aircraft.

"The upgraded Mirage 2000 has successfully completed its maiden flight on schedule as envisaged by the campaign programme," Dassault Aviation said in a release. The IAF had started procuring the Mirage-2000 in the early 80s and had signed an upgrade deal last year to extend the life span of the aircraft by around 10-15 years.

The Air Force lost two of the Mirage 2000 aircraft last year in crashes and has only 49 aircraft out of the 51 for which the deal was signed are left with it. It is not clear whether the cost of upgrading the fleet of these aircraft will come down or not because of the two losses.

Upgraded Mirage 2000 undertakes maiden flight in France

 

[rugved]

Instead of spending on Mirages 2000s, the Indian Defence Ministry should spend and speed up the process of manufacturing Rafales.

 

[drkrn]

Instead of spending on Mirages 2000s, the Indian Defence Ministry should spend and speed up the process of manufacturing Rafales.

i too had the same idea.i feel that spending on mirage might not be a bad one,but definitely not as good as a rafale

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Guys, may I know which will be better in combat, the IAF's Mirage 2000-5's or the Pakistani Mirage III and Mirage V ROSE III's?
I've seen somewhere about superior avionics, and things like that for PAF's Mirage Upgrade.

EDIT: Some kind of analysis on this? thanks.

Dassault Mirage III

First flight 17 November 1956

Introduction 1961

Dassault Mirage 5

First flight 19 May 1967

Status Active

It was derived from Dassault's popular Mirage III fighter, and spawned several variants of its own. mostly an improved version of mirage 3

Dassault Mirage 2000

Introduction November 1982

Status Active service

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

IAF MIRAGE 2000

PAF MIRAGE 3

MIRAGE 5

 

[Saumyasupraik]

It was derived from Dassault's popular Mirage III fighter, and spawned several variants of its own. mostly an improved version of mirage 3

Mirage 5 is a strike aircraft derivative of the Mirage III, simplified to carry more fuel and have better range. A similar analog would be the MiG-27 which is derived from the MiG-23BN.

 

[Waffen SS]

i too had the same idea.i feel that spending on mirage might not be a bad one,but definitely not as good as a rafale

Really? I dont see why India decided to buy Rafael?

Mirage 2000 has a speed of Mach 2.2, range 1550 km and it costs only 23 Million US Dollar.

Rafael costs 82.3 Million US dollar, it has maximum speed of only 1.8 Mach, it is not as fast as even MiG 21.

I cant understand why do you buy Rafael? We already had MiG 29's as Fighter, Jaguar as fighter bomber, Su 30MKI as air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000 is an excellent plane, capable both as fighter bomber and fighter, LCA Tejas as attack plane do we really need Rafael at all?:why:

Instead of buying costly Rafael we should buy Mirage 2000 then we can achieve better results at low cost.

I think it is like US's problem of F 22 or F 15, F 22's only advantage is it's stealth technology. Other wise nothing.

We already had licence to produce Mirage 2000, transfer of Rafael will take long time.
@Ray, @ersakthivel, @p2prada

 

[ersakthivel]

Really? I dont see why India decided to buy Rafael?

Mirage 2000 has a speed of Mach 2.2, range 1550 km and it costs only 23 Million US Dollar.

Rafael costs 82.3 Million US dollar, it has maximum speed of only 1.8 Mach, it is not as fast as even MiG 21.

I cant understand why do you buy Rafael? We already had MiG 29's as Fighter, Jaguar as fighter bomber, Su 30MKI as air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000 is an excellent plane, capable both as fighter bomber and fighter, LCA Tejas as attack plane do we really need Rafael at all?:why:

Instead of buying costly Rafael we should buy Mirage 2000 then we can achieve better results at low cost.

I think it is like US's problem of F 22 or F 15, F 22's only advantage is it's stealth technology. Other wise nothing.

We already had licence to produce Mirage 2000, transfer of Rafael will take long time.
@Ray, @ersakthivel, @p2prada

mirage-2000 has way lower power to weight ratio and lesser STR than RAFALE which will make it a lot slower than RAFALE in crucial dog fights.

Clean config frontal RCS of RAFALE is a tenth of Mirage-2000 meaning RAFALE will be unseen by enemy radar once it fires all its long range BVRs and approach for close combat like Tejas LCA does because both have a way smaller low clean config RCS.

Also additions like external stealth compliant weapon bays like it is being done on Super hornet will take RAFALE close to FGFA in future because RAFALE has much smaller clean config RCS than the MIRAGE-2000

Also RAFALE has a longer range BVR missile and radar compared to Mirage-2000.

the price of mirage-2000 was 23 million dollars when gold was one seventh of its present price.

So for a far comparison divide the 120 million dollar price of RAFALE by 7 and you will around 16 million dollar is the correct comparison.

At top speeds fighters can not maneuver with agility and useless in air combat.

we can not say Mig-21 and Su-30 MKI are equal because they both have same top speed, can we?

The real question is whether IAF needs to put in 40 million dollar per plane upgrade for Mirage-2000,

when for the same price they can buy 40 extra tejas mk-1s ,

which have lower clean config RCS, better power to weight ratio ,

and longer range radar and longer range BVR missiles than Mirage-2000

even after 40 million dollar per piece upgrades,

A quixotic decision. They could have gone in for a less costly upgrade and ordered 40 more tejas mk-1 in its place.

taking a total of tejas mk-1 fleet to 80 in iaf.

It would have greatly boosted it's fleet capacity and led to faster production of tejas mk-1 which would also mean speeding up of tejas mk-2 program.

because if production rate for tejas mk-1 is faster , then we can produce tejas mk-2 LSPs and PVS even faster from the higher capacity tejas mk-1 production line. All of these advantages are being given a quite burial with no questions asked.

 

[Armand2REP]

Instead of spending on Mirages 2000s, the Indian Defence Ministry should spend and speed up the process of manufacturing Rafales.

Squadron numbers would fall too fast without it. The only way Rafale could be produced fast enough would have been an immediate signing and dual production in France and India.

 

[Armand2REP]

Really? I dont see why India decided to buy Rafael?

Mirage 2000 has a speed of Mach 2.2, range 1550 km and it costs only 23 Million US Dollar.

Rafael costs 82.3 Million US dollar, it has maximum speed of only 1.8 Mach, it is not as fast as even MiG 21.

I cant understand why do you buy Rafael? We already had MiG 29's as Fighter, Jaguar as fighter bomber, Su 30MKI as air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000 is an excellent plane, capable both as fighter bomber and fighter, LCA Tejas as attack plane do we really need Rafael at all?:why:

Instead of buying costly Rafael we should buy Mirage 2000 then we can achieve better results at low cost.

I think it is like US's problem of F 22 or F 15, F 22's only advantage is it's stealth technology. Other wise nothing.

We already had licence to produce Mirage 2000, transfer of Rafael will take long time.
@Ray, @ersakthivel, @p2prada

You are quoting prices from 1995. To get an updated M2000 is twice the price and bought second hand. The combat effectiveness of one Rafale is 2.5X a modernised M2000 and 4X your current models. The relative price difference to capability makes Rafale a bargain.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Really? I dont see why India decided to buy Rafael?

Mirage 2000 has a speed of Mach 2.2, range 1550 km and it costs only 23 Million US Dollar.

Rafael costs 82.3 Million US dollar, it has maximum speed of only 1.8 Mach, it is not as fast as even MiG 21.

I cant understand why do you buy Rafael? We already had MiG 29's as Fighter, Jaguar as fighter bomber, Su 30MKI as air superiority fighter, Mirage 2000 is an excellent plane, capable both as fighter bomber and fighter, LCA Tejas as attack plane do we really need Rafael at all?:why:

Instead of buying costly Rafael we should buy Mirage 2000 then we can achieve better results at low cost.

I think it is like US's problem of F 22 or F 15, F 22's only advantage is it's stealth technology. Other wise nothing.

We already had licence to produce Mirage 2000, transfer of Rafael will take long time.

The Mirage-2000 vs MiG-29 debate finally ends!
LINK:
defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/36096-mirage-2000-vs-mig-29-debate-finally-ends.html