IAF Mirage 2000

[Dark Sorrow]

Just take out the russian products out of Iaf & c what is left.....

& from the next time try 2 explain ur point.....

M2k, Phalcon, remove all non-russian goodies from MKI then it will be a piece of crap, C-130, Globemaster, upgrades to Mig-27 and 29 are mostly non-Russian, jaguar, etc.

 

[SATISH]

The MKI is an awesome machine even without the Non-Russian parts. It can outclimb and out turn all the 4th generation fighters in existence. It has an AoA of 22 degrees. The Americans and others cant even come close to the Russians when it comes to aerodynamics and making of aircrafts with similar capablities at cheaper rates. The west knows they cant defeat a Russian craft in close combat that is why they want to see first and shoot first. The Avionics which we integrated to the Su 30MKI negates this disadvantage in the SU 30. You must understand, we belong to the tier II type of nations. We develop a doctrine and bastardize our weapons to suit it. That is how SU 30 MKI was born.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The MKI is an awesome machine even without the Non-Russian parts. It can outclimb and out turn all the 4th generation fighters in existence. It has an AoA of 22 degrees. The Americans and others cant even come close to the Russians when it comes to aerodynamics and making of aircrafts with similar capablities at cheaper rates. The west knows they cant defeat a Russian craft in close combat that is why they want to see first and shoot first. The Avionics which we integrated to the Su 30MKI negates this disadvantage in the SU 30. You must understand, we belong to the tier II type of nations. We develop a doctrine and bastardize our weapons to suit it. That is how SU 30 MKI was born.

Manuveribility is not the only aspect of A-A combat.
It is genrally believe to win a dogfight style combact you need to outnumber enemy three to one.
It was also observed that more than 80% of kills in A-A combat were recored when the pilot being attack was not aware about the attacker or the fact he is being attack. This gave rise to BVR combat. US mastered this style of combat while Russians could not so Russians went towards manuveribility.
In a modern A-A combat situational awareness, a good EW suite, a good fire control system(radar), etc. is required.
For MKI MC, the RC for Bars, FBY laws have been modified/rewriten by us espacially to use canards, TV nozzel is also said to be a joint venture, the RWR and we even replaced the bus arcitecture.
EW pod is Israeli with Indian integration and software support. LCD and HUD required for glass cockpit is also imported and the software required for glass cockpit is written by DRDO. Composites used in MKI are developed by us.
This are just few and there are many more critical systems that are modified.

 

[venom]

Russians are the masters of Aerodynamics & Maneuverability. No other plane plane in the world can do do things which Mig-29 & Su-30 can...

 

[venom]

Trust me man gimme a RX 100 I will beat a R 15 anyday. Things do not work in the defence industry as you think. The Mirage 2000 which is the most pilot friendly aircraft in IAF. The Rafale has more chances as they are from the makers of Mirage 2000. And the MiG 29 cant come close to the Mirage when it comes to serious multirole missions.

Why are countries like Brazil, Japan, Switzerland, etc. bothering to look at the newer types instead of simply upgrading, and using the same fighter types they already, or purchasing more of the types they already have, and using them for the next 30 years ?

the reason is simple- to try and stay ahead of the curve of obsolescence at least for the next 15 years..the Mirage-2000-5s and MiG-29UPGs will be competitive, but they are finally going to reach a stage where you cannot upgrade them any further without expending money almost equivalent to, if not more than, the cost of the fighters themselves..integration of equipment is neither cheap, nor easy. on BRF, the Su-30MKI has perpetuated a myth among armchair generals that XYZ equipment can be slam dunked into a fighter and overnight its equivalent to a fighter that was designed nearly 10-15 years later, and incorporated design and manufacturing philosophies that were non-existent or too futuristic at the time of their design..the Su-27 was a platform that was so under-utilised in its original configuration that it offered a lot of volume and a lot of scope for upgrades and improvements..adding a digital FBW helped, and so did avionics, but not all platforms are the same.

heck, there are armchair marshals who want the IAF to buy more MiG-21s and Jaguars and use them for another 30-40 years !! while the Jag is a good aircraft for its role currently, its a fighter designed in the 1960s and the future of the IAF strike cannot be based on a design that is 2 generations behind what is current ! already we're one of the only major operators of Jaguars worldwide, when even its parent country has retired them (though it did so more due to funding issues)..we have guys suggesting that instead we should operate these for another 30 years and more ! one even suggested that the LCA ought to have been dumped for more MiG-21 Bison types..that is the most backward, pessimistic thinking imaginable and even the IAF would laugh at such a ridiculous proposition !

I guess the same line of thought would mean that maybe the IAF ought not to have spent a ton of money on the Mirages in the 1980s, especially when the foreign exchange reserves were so low..they ought to have upgraded the HAL Ajeets or the HF-24 Marut with FBW, radar and it should've been operational till today. why did the IAF even bother to induct MiG-29s when MiG-23MFs could do the role of air to air interception ? they should've bought more of those and slapped the MiG-29s radar and HMS onto the MiG-23MF and bingo ! you'd have a MiG-23MF-MKI that would last another 30 years trying to counter F-16s that would outfly the MiG-23 or the Ajeet any day, any time.

I can only thank those forward thinking visionaries who took on the challenge of the LCA because the kind of thinking some people are showing here would've meant a fighter that would've had little to no composites (which as a technology will benefit Indian industry immensely in the future), an analog FBW that would've needed replacing less than half way through the fighter's life, and much lesser competency to even think of developing a 5th generation fighter on our own..

and eventually, even though the Mirage-2000 is my all-time favourite aircraft, I'm happy that the IAF will get a fighter designed a decade after it, one that is current for a lot more years than some upgraded MiG or Mirage and one that has far more upgrade potential another 20 years down the line. I'm quite sure that the pilots who will risk their lives to fight any future battles for India will agree. so, the MRCA is not quite a futile exercise or a farce, its actually very important because the chosen fighter WILL be the backbone of IAF strike for the next 30 years

 

[p2prada]

IAF will sacrifice the MRCA deal, but will not sacrifice the Mirage deal. The Mirage upgrade will make them better and more reliable than the MKIs.

There are things the Mirage can do that the MKI can never do and neither can the Mig-29.

I got it from a guy who worked 20 years with the IAF Mirages. We don't have anything that can fly over the Himalayas and come back except the Mirages. Not even the MKIs. Similarly, the Chinese don't have anything either.

The smaller mountains in Kargil gave a lot of trouble to the IAF too. Only Mirages could be properly employed on bombing runs. Our Jags and Mig-27s were not good enough either. The high drag, low wing loading and decent thrust was all that required for the Mirages to become the show stopper during the Kargil war.

 

[venom]

IAF will sacrifice the MRCA deal, but will not sacrifice the Mirage deal. The Mirage upgrade will make them better and more reliable than the MKIs.

There are things the Mirage can do that the MKI can never do and neither can the Mig-29.

I got it from a guy who worked 20 years with the IAF Mirages. We don't have anything that can fly over the Himalayas and come back except the Mirages. Not even the MKIs. Similarly, the Chinese don't have anything either.

The smaller mountains in Kargil gave a lot of trouble to the IAF too. Only Mirages could be properly employed on bombing runs. Our Jags and Mig-27s were not good enough either. The high drag, low wing loading and decent thrust was all that required for the Mirages to become the show stopper during the Kargil war.

Can u clarify your statement....?

 

[p2prada]

Can u clarify your statement....?

The last paragraph of the post should suffice.

Also the ability to get in and out of merges at will.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Can u clarify your statement....?

AFAIK the Su-30MKI can do everything a Mirage can do and possibly even more... if what p2prada says is true i.e. if the Mirage can do some stuff that the MKI can't do, then I can only say that the MKI programme was wasted

 

[venom]

The last paragraph of the post should suffice.

Also the ability to get in and out of merges at will.

It was easy to modify a Mirage-2000 to drop Laser Guided Mutations and for this reason Mirage-2000 were extensively used but this does not mean that Jaguar & Mig-27 were bad. Su-30MKI were not even operational at that time. Su-30MKI is superior in all aspects to Mirage-2000.The only advantage Mirage-2000 has is lower maintainance cost.
Just a a bit of info about

1.Range - Su-30MKI
2.Payload - Su-30MKI
3.BVR Weapons - Su-30MKI
4.Radar - Su-30MKI
5.Avionics - Su-30MKI
6.Operating Cost- Mirage 2000
7.Speed - Su-30MKI
8.Altitude - Su-30MKI
9.Air to Ground Weapons - Su-30MKI
10.Anti ship role - Su-30MKI
11.Maneuverability - Su-30MKI

 

[p2prada]

It was easy to modify a Mirage-2000 to drop Laser Guided Mutations and for this reason Mirage-2000 were extensively used but this does not mean that Jaguar & Mig-27 were bad. Su-30MKI were not even operational at that time. Su-30MKI is superior in all aspects to Mirage-2000.The only advantage Mirage-2000 has is lower maintainance cost.
Just a a bit of info about

1.Range - Su-30MKI
2.Payload - Su-30MKI
3.BVR Weapons - Su-30MKI
4.Radar - Su-30MKI------(Mirage-2000)
5.Avionics - Su-30MKI------(Mirage-2000)
6.Operating Cost- Mirage 2000
7.Speed - Su-30MKI
8.Altitude - Su-30MKI
9.Air to Ground Weapons - Su-30MKI
10.Anti ship role - Su-30MKI
11.Maneuverability - Su-30MKI-----both

Specs aren't everything. The new RDY-3 radar on the Mirage-2000 is a generation ahead of the BARS. I am primarily talking about the Mirage-2000s ability to deliver strike packages. I made some changes in the list too.

The Mirages delta wing design and its low wing loading makes it highly maneuverable in dog fights. It turns quickly, climbs and descends quickly too.

When the Americans brought F-16s for Cope India exercises, it was the Mirage-2000s which were punishing the F-16s and not the Su-30k.

As for the work over kargil, the fighters needed to fly upto 30000ft and drop down into a steep dive by 10000ft and delivery the package and pull up before the enemy fires their MANPADS. Fighting the thin air and turbulence is not something a Mig-27 or jag can do. Again, the characteristic of the delta wing design. Had the Pakistanis had SAMs, even the Mirage-2000s would have found it difficult while the SAMs would have plucked the Jags and Mig-27s from the air easily. Even the MKI would have difficulty in such situations.

The MKI is an excellent bird in the air. It's airframe is designed for high drag, similar to the Mirage-2000. But, its weight and the engine power restrictions will create problems when it comes to pulling up after a bombing run.

Also, the IAF dropped only 9 250kg LGBs(2250kg) over Kargil while the rest of the packages were dumb bombs. The total ordnance dropped amounted to 55000+kg. So, the total LGBs dropped was only 4% of the total. Out of 9 LGBs, 8 were dropped by Mirages and 1 by a Jaguar.

 

[venom]

Specs aren't everything. The new RDY-3 radar on the Mirage-2000 is a generation ahead of the BARS. I am primarily talking about the Mirage-2000s ability to deliver strike packages. I made some changes in the list too.

The Mirages delta wing design and its low wing loading makes it highly maneuverable in dog fights. It turns quickly, climbs and descends quickly too.

When the Americans brought F-16s for Cope India exercises, it was the Mirage-2000s which were punishing the F-16s and not the Su-30k.

As for the work over kargil, the fighters needed to fly upto 30000ft and drop down into a steep dive by 10000ft and delivery the package and pull up before the enemy fires their MANPADS. Fighting the thin air and turbulence is not something a Mig-27 or jag can do. Again, the characteristic of the delta wing design. Had the Pakistanis had SAMs, even the Mirage-2000s would have found it difficult while the SAMs would have plucked the Jags and Mig-27s from the air easily. Even the MKI would have difficulty in such situations.

The MKI is an excellent bird in the air. It's airframe is designed for high drag, similar to the Mirage-2000. But, its weight and the engine power restrictions will create problems when it comes to pulling up after a bombing run.

Also, the IAF dropped only 9 250kg LGBs(2250kg) over Kargil while the rest of the packages were dumb bombs. The total ordnance dropped amounted to 55000+kg. So, the total LGBs dropped was only 4% of the total. Out of 9 LGBs, 8 were dropped by Mirages and 1 by a Jaguar.

Indian Upgraded includes RDY-2.RDY-3 is a less capable version of RDY-2.
RC-400 Is based on RDY-3 which the French might offer as a future upgrade to Pak JF-17's.

Here are the specs of RDY-2
Central to the upgraded multirole capability of the Dash 5 is the RDY radar developed by Thomson-CSF/Detexis. Development of the RDY radar began in 1984 and the programme proceeded smoothly. In July 1987 the first of nine prototypes took to the air in a Falcon 20, and seven years later in December 1994, Thomson-CSF were able to deliver the first production standard set. RDY is the result of Thomson-CSF's experience gained from producing four generations of fighter radar, in particular the RDI radar -the first Pulse Doppler radar developed by Thomson-CSF.
The RDY can select one of three PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) modes, namely low, medium and high when operating in the air intercept mode (Auto Waveform Management). Low PRF is employed in the Look - Up mode. High PRF is best suited to long range Look - Down, while Medium PRF is used at all altitudes due to its reliable target detection properties. Thomson - CSF have developed algorithms that continually optimise the wave form to guarantee the highest target discrimination, even when the enemy is using advanced ECM. RDY has proved its ability to accurately measure target range even in heavy ground clutter and consistently demonstrates a “False Alarm Rate” of zero. When operating in the air-to-ground mode, the RDY employs Doppler Beam Sharpening, terrain mapping and air-to-ground ranging. RDY can simultaneously detect 24 airborne targets, irrespective of their altitude, track the eight most threatening and auto-prioritise four of them. Thomson-CSF/Detexis quote the look-up, look-down, shoot-up, shoot-down performance as being 70 km. In actual practice engagements conducted by the French AdlA, RDY has demonstrated its ability to detect, reliably, fighter size targets at 140 km. Great effort has been made reduce the effectiveness of any ECM that the enemy might choose to employ. Of significance is the advanced signal processing and the Monopulse receiver with its three independent channels. The RDY is however being developed further. The latest version, RDY-2 has a 15% greater air-to-air range, a SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) mode that allows ground mapping with a resolution of less than one metre and refined moving ground target tracking.

For Further reference -
LiveFist: Heart of the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade
Group


You cannot compare RDY-2 to N011M Bars.RDY-2 Is a Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar where as N011M Bars Is a PESA.No11M is far more powerful than Rdy-2.

N011M Bars Specifications
The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system.It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously.These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters.The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft.The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft.The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

Avionics -
Mirage is a French aircraft & all its avionics are of french origin.
Su-30MKI has a Mix of Russian,Indian,French & Israel's Avionics.The avionics On su-30MKI are more better than any Mirage-2000 Version.

Maneuverability -
Su-30MKI has a 2D TVC.

A simple question - Can u show me a Mirage-2000 doing a cobra..?

You cannot compare a TVC equipped fighter with a non-TVC fighter.Su-30Mki even has canards which Mirage-2000 lacks

 

[venom]

As for the work over kargil, the fighters needed to fly upto 30000ft and drop down into a steep dive by 10000ft and delivery the package and pull up before the enemy fires their MANPADS.

& a fighter need not dive to drop a Laser guided bomb as in case of dumb bombs.....

 

[John]

su-30mki far outclasses the mirage even after its upgrade, Su-30mki can delivery all of the Russian missiles in our inventory and will soon fire the brahmos which will make it even deadlier. And not to forget mk-4 upgrades with new radars, lighter airframe, KS-172s, mirage upgrade is gr8 as well since it can fire A2A: Micas, Magics, Asraams, Super530, Astra: A2G: AS-30L, Matra ARMAT, Marte, Paveway-2, Crystal maze missiles.

 

[p2prada]

Indian Upgraded includes RDY-2.RDY-3 is a less capable version of RDY-2.
RC-400 Is based on RDY-3 which the French might offer as a future upgrade to Pak JF-17's.

The French are offering an awesome radar for the JF-17. But, it is yet to be seen if PAF will go for it since IAF is going to use the same radar.

Here are the specs of RDY-2
Central to the upgraded multirole capability of the Dash 5 is the RDY radar developed by Thomson-CSF/Detexis. Development of the RDY radar began in 1984 and the programme proceeded smoothly. In July 1987 the first of nine prototypes took to the air in a Falcon 20, and seven years later in December 1994, Thomson-CSF were able to deliver the first production standard set. RDY is the result of Thomson-CSF's experience gained from producing four generations of fighter radar, in particular the RDI radar -the first Pulse Doppler radar developed by Thomson-CSF.
The RDY can select one of three PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) modes, namely low, medium and high when operating in the air intercept mode (Auto Waveform Management). Low PRF is employed in the Look - Up mode. High PRF is best suited to long range Look - Down, while Medium PRF is used at all altitudes due to its reliable target detection properties. Thomson - CSF have developed algorithms that continually optimise the wave form to guarantee the highest target discrimination, even when the enemy is using advanced ECM. RDY has proved its ability to accurately measure target range even in heavy ground clutter and consistently demonstrates a “False Alarm Rate” of zero. When operating in the air-to-ground mode, the RDY employs Doppler Beam Sharpening, terrain mapping and air-to-ground ranging. RDY can simultaneously detect 24 airborne targets, irrespective of their altitude, track the eight most threatening and auto-prioritise four of them. Thomson-CSF/Detexis quote the look-up, look-down, shoot-up, shoot-down performance as being 70 km. In actual practice engagements conducted by the French AdlA, RDY has demonstrated its ability to detect, reliably, fighter size targets at 140 km. Great effort has been made reduce the effectiveness of any ECM that the enemy might choose to employ. Of significance is the advanced signal processing and the Monopulse receiver with its three independent channels. The RDY is however being developed further. The latest version, RDY-2 has a 15% greater air-to-air range, a SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) mode that allows ground mapping with a resolution of less than one metre and refined moving ground target tracking.

Exactly why the RDY is better than the BARS. Everything marked in Bold is superior in the RDY than the Bars. The BARS is specifically made for A2A engagements while the RDY-3 is meant for primarily delivering strike packages.

The additional benefits are a superior algorithm, faster time management, faster search time, superior cooling, lesser power, work better under a dense electronic environment, superior ECCM and better maintenance.

You cannot compare RDY-2 to N011M Bars.RDY-2 Is a Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar where as N011M Bars Is a PESA.No11M is far more powerful than RDY-2.

Goes on to show your knowledge in radars. Both radars are pulse doppler radars. Pulse Doppler is an effect in Physics and not something unique to the BARS. Even the American AESA radars are pulse doppler radars. Even the Phalcon and Greenpine are pulse doppler radars. All modern radars follow the Pulse Doppler Effect. It's just that the antennas are either Passive or Active.

N011M Bars Specifications
The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system.It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously.These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters.The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft.The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft.The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

The BARS primarily relies on its superior power for a big range. Pretty good for A2A and anti-shipping roles.

Avionics -
Mirage is a French aircraft & all its avionics are of french origin.
Su-30MKI has a Mix of Russian,Indian,French & Israel's Avionics.The avionics On su-30MKI are more better than any Mirage-2000 Version.

The French make some of the best stuff. As good as the Israelis.

Maneuverability -
Su-30MKI has a 2D TVC.

Makes no difference to the Mirage. Low wing loading is enough. If we have the LCA's basic aerodynamics right, then the LCA will fly better than the MKI at high altitudes.

A simple question - Can u show me a Mirage-2000 doing a cobra..?

Air show maneuver. Not used in real combat.

You cannot compare a TVC equipped fighter with a non-TVC fighter.Su-30Mki even has canards which Mirage-2000 lacks

Yes I can. The MKI needs TVC and canards for being effective. The Mirage does not need them. You can't simply put TVC and Canards on the Mirage and expect it to fly better than the MKI. It does not work that way. The Mirage 2000 has a delta design while the MKI has a triplane. 2 wholly different designs guided by completely different design principles.

There are things both planes can do that are unique to them. The Mirage-2000(LCA, Rafale, Gripen, EF-2000) comes on top when it comes to high altitude bombing while the MKI is an effective air superiority platform.

That's the very reason the Su-34 looks completely different from the other Flankers. The aerodynamics is better suited for bombing than other roles.

 

[p2prada]

& a fighter need not dive to drop a Laser guided bomb as in case of dumb bombs.....

Can you go through the list of bombs used and see how many were dumb bombs and how many smart bombs? Read the last para of post #31. It will make things more clear.

 

[p2prada]

Lastly, all PGMs are almost useless over the Himalayas. Its a natural barrier for anything.

 

[venom]

In air to ground Mode ur comparing Yet to be installed Rdy-2[m not taking abt French or other Mirage-2000's but of IAF] to fully operational N011M Bars. Su-30MKI will get Irbis-e whose performance is on par with latest AESA radars & is far far superior to Rdy-2.Indian IAF Mirage will have Rdy-2 in 2 years & this this will be a nightmare for pakistan...ha ha

& cobra is not just an air show trick but is very effective in WVR Combat....

 

[p2prada]

In air to ground Mode ur comparing Yet to be installed Rdy-2[m not taking abt French or other Mirage-2000's but of IAF] to fully operational N011M Bars. Su-30MKI will get Irbis-e whose performance is on par with latest AESA radars & is far far superior to Rdy-2.Indian IAF Mirage will have Rdy-2 in 2 years & this this will be a nightmare for pakistan...ha ha

& cobra is not just an air show trick but is very effective in WVR Combat....

The RDY-2 was inducted in 1999. It has undergone modifications. The Irbis is as yet a paper radar system. The Irbis is meant to be better than the RDY-2 anyways. Mirage 2000 cannot deliver as much power as the MKI.

Cobra only has historical significance when it was first shown to the public in 1991. It is not used in dog fights because the fighter looses too much energy doing it. There are other maneuvers not shown to the public that are used for dog fights.

What we already have is a nightmare for Pakistan.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Can someone explain Pulse Doppler effect?
Thank You in advance.