IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[IndianHawk]

I hope that Modi does better on the procurement stuff than his first term which wasn’t too different from the previous 10 years. You can argue that Modi and Doval should have foreseen that an Pulwama type event was likely at some stage and should have been better prepared. Yet pretty much the armed forces were dealing with vintage stuff even at the fag end of the term

Prosecuting a war on the cheap usually turns very costly. The sad whining of “ if we only had the Rafale....” was as disheartening as it gets.

I also don’t think the matters of Feb should end this way, there is a small issue of retribution remaining ....

While you are right on many counts. Modi did good. He ordered 36 jets as soon as he could.
He probably wanted to hold dassault to promise of Kaveri development before ordering more but the Congress raised scam alert.

Modi also cleared acquisition of s400 on time which UPA was delaying.


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[Absolut_Vodka]

Mig 21 bis is also a real headache for Pakistan as it was for USAF during cope India 2004 when mig 21 bis shot f 15s multiple times in simulated exercise.

Fitting jamming pod and data link to mig 21 bis/93 is ultimate jugaad IAF did to this low radar and visually observable aircraft making it most lethal underdog in fight.

And shouldn't I Derby er already compatible with Tejas? Or is it operational?

 

[IndianHawk]

Mig 21 bis is also a real headache for Pakistan as it was for USAF during cope India 2004 when mig 21 bis shot f 15s multiple times in simulated exercise.

Fitting jamming pod and data link to mig 21 bis/93 is ultimate jugaad IAF did to this low radar and visually observable aircraft making it most lethal underdog in fight.

And shouldn't I Derby er already compatible with Tejas? Or is it operational?

Mig 21 bis is dangerous sneaky beast. The problem is it is very tough to fly as it is not fly by wire. It has limited range and now airframes are too old and spares are scarce .

Lca has even lower RCS then mig21 with twice the payload , twice the range and lca has much better weaponry and avionics.

About I derby ER. Rafael has stated before that integration trials are going on with lca.
Derby is already integrated and tested .
But the ER version which has 100+km range will work properly only with aesa 2052 / Uttam combo. As the radar needs 150km+ detection range to guide 100km+ missile.

So derby ER is probably being integrated into lsp with Uttam and 2052 radar . It might take 2-3 years though.

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[Deathstar]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AxAB&usg=AOvVaw2wi3ScBeyYaD1vm1O-ltXW&ampcf=1
Guys this article is old but Print did a good job , article explains how F16s were accounted for

 

[Arsalan123]

By doing this misadventure, you have broken accord of BVRs across LoC/ Border. Now dare you come again with bandars and f 16s and you will see a barrage of r77s heading towards you within your own airspace.

India also has 300km AWACS killer AAM. Next time we will engage AWACS too and make atlantique part 2 out of your Saab.

300 km awacs killer? Didn't heard about this missile.are you talking about meteor?

 

[vampyrbladez]

300 km awacs killer? Didn't heard about this missile.are you talking about meteor?

K100 Novator missile...........................................

 

[Arsalan123]

K100 Novator missile...........................................

Nice.this is new information for me.one more question.if this is an air to air missile then why su-30 didn't use it against our f-16s or jf-17.i know sub 30 tried to avoid amraam but clearly this missile has more range so why su-30 using r-77?

 

[patriots]

Nice.this is new information for me.one more question.if this is an air to air missile then why su-30 didn't use it against our f-16s or jf-17.i know sub 30 tried to avoid amraam but clearly this missile has more range so why su-30 using r-77?

No one knows whether it is in service or not.........
Bdw brahmos air lunched can hit awacs at 300 km too

 

[Tang]

Nice.this is new information for me.one more question.if this is an air to air missile then why su-30 didn't use it against our f-16s or jf-17.i know sub 30 tried to avoid amraam but clearly this missile has more range so why su-30 using r-77?

Because Fighter jets are more agile than Awacs,

 

[mayfair]

This Arse-e-lun bloke really lives upto his name. Just cannot get over his itch for having something stuffed up his backside, which is why he keeps returning to these fora.

A word of advise to the members, as much satisfying it maybe to put another stuffing into Arse-e-lun, after sometime you may find that while Arse-e-lun is quite enjoying it, ya all may be getting a herpes.

Ignore, report, reject the likes of Arse-e-lun and his/her types.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Nice.this is new information for me.one more question.if this is an air to air missile then why su-30 didn't use it against our f-16s or jf-17.i know sub 30 tried to avoid amraam but clearly this missile has more range so why su-30 using r-77?

KS-172 Novator is a massive 750 kg missile. Su-30 mki on CAP won't be carrying it. There will be a su-30 mki on a dedicated mission to kill the AWAC. As @Absolut_Vodka said you have let the genie out of the bottle by firing AMRAAM across the loc... Erie eyes better be careful... Or a 50 kg warhead might just ram into it...

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

300 km awacs killer? Didn't heard about this missile.are you talking about meteor?

The biggest takeaway from this engagement should be that now air corridor is also open for assault. Doesn't matter how much Pakis celebrate 27 Feb, it was a historic moment and detrimental for Pakistan while highly beneficial for India. Your top brass knows it and that's why they aren't letting go this escalation easily.

We have budget but face lot of bureaucratic red tapes regarding both upgrades and new procurement. You can't expect same MMRCA or tejas type snail pace that you were used to and comfortable with earlier. Now emergency funds are diverted to armed forces for urgent procurement. IAF ordered 100 spice 2000 with Astra and I Derby ER integration pushed at max pace. Bhramos is also getting integrated on Su 30mki. Rafales are already inbound. 21 Mig 29 + 18 Su 30 Mki are also in works to support depleting squadrons.

So you won't only be facing Rafales next time but also more lethal Su 30Mki and Mig 29 UPG/K who were using 1990s R-77s earlier. 27 Feb will cause overhaul of IAF, kinda of fear mongering that US generals do in front of congress.

All Pakistanis are busy celebrating Mig 21, Mig 27, An 32 crashes while not realizing that these platforms are not meant to be flown in first place. Not only did Pakistanis gave a huge boost to IAF but also made Modi more famous and favorite of nation.

Your whole nation is dissing Abhinandan while not realizing that he not only broke cordon of your F-16s giving cover to F16s who were dropping LGBs but also came in 10 Km inside PoK, shot down F 16 and got shot down while aiming to shoot another F 16. You may not believe that F16 was shot down but can you imagine guts of a pilot getting inside your airspace with 1960s Mig 21 dogfighting with multiple F 16s?

Now PAF not only has to match IAF in strength but also superiority without funds and access to latest western tech. This coupled with S 400 and all of it because of tweet by DJ ISPR.

 

[Compersion]

Why are not pakis utilizing their pakiness when seeing no one came to their support and help after and on Feb 27.

They burned down a USA embassy in Islamabad before where is the guts. Have the pakis really lost it ? their pakiness is hiding ? To say their guts were at display on Feb 27. But what did they respond to ? A strike on terrorists after a disturbing event. They have lost the message already.

At the recent OIC what was the pakis doing ... enjoying being told they are and have nothing. Displaying their Paki manners. Pakis know they are looking west(wards) only now. They are going to head for a direct collision now with ...

Also we have to prepare not for Pakis but for other dynamics now and later with any defense and strategic requirement and dimension to a bigger and larger game at the heart of which is the righteousness and righteous way of Bharat for the region and world. It might be lonely to begin with but slowly and step by step. All the learning and motivations from Feb 27 ought to be channeled for a larger and bigger proposition away from Pakis.

For the pakis they have to face up to the reality and deal with the reality who really put them in this ... pakiness. and to the pakis - dont look this way (you wont have the chance and ability to now anyway).

In the meantime Pakis need to enjoy the drawing board being drawn up by the righteousness and righteous .

 

[garg_bharat]

We also misjudged paki intentions on 27 Feb. Usually an aircraft that fires BVRs at maximum range is much above the altitude of aircraft it's trying to shoot ,that is just like taking long range sniper shots aim bit higher than subject so that missile/bullet is at right height while dropping under effect of gravity.

It's just like an attack formation is much different than regular cap missions.

Pakis are also concerned about shooting blanks on 27 Feb and no cheeni maal can outdo their current AMRAAMs.

Article seems to suggest that Israel is responsible for making Derby compatible with su 30 mki. Let's see if that works out and we can get two squadrons with Israeli BVRAAMs.

Sometimes enemy's strategy becomes clear only in wartime. This is the reason arm chair Generals fail with the first whiff of war. So IAF learnt a lesson here. And IAF learnt more lessons this year. The deficiencies need to be addressed. Forces should no longer blame govt. as govt. is giving them all possible support. This is the time to hit the ground.

 

[Mikesingh]

It's unfortunate we lost the information battle/propaganda war against the Pakis. Much of the world and media thinks that while India lost a MiG, it failed to do any damage to the Pakis and that no F-16s were shot down even though that knucklehead Gafoora admitted that one pilot had been admitted in their military hospital saying he was Indian (turned out to be one of the two Paki pilots who ejected after being shot out of the sky).

The issues concerning propaganda are complex and numerous but it is a well known fact that propaganda can be one of the main weapons used in psychological warfare and can significantly affect the outcome of a war - even a skirmish that happened after Balakot. Instead of weakening Paki morale in general we have instead propped it up many notches by failing to counter their propaganda.

 

[mayfair]

We truly suck at propaganda warfare and this is an institutional thing.

 

[uoftotaku]

Our services have not exactly come been covering themselves in glory on the PR front lately. Whether it was the IA with its ridiculous Yeti fiasco, IAF with the bad handling of the leaks in Mi-17 and AN-32 crashes (announcing a reward for information!!! wtf ) or the IN with the accidental FT jettison at Dabolim. From all angles they are making themselves look both technically backward and information age Luddites. They seriously need some professional media handling training

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

That's what I have been saying , all IAF needed to do was release a little proof ,not much just a little ,I gave them benefit of doubt that operations are ongoing ,and dynamics can change ,but post elections I expected something .
The poster who was talking about IAF blasted a few f-16s in march and sent pakis a message that we will not claim it if you don't announce it was so so bad if true ,I mean what was the rationale behind it ,that they had to face paki retaliation if India claims it?
I believe we have no credible proof of downed f-16 and pilots who died ,means proper pics and videos , heck I think we might not have that for even balakot.
That's the same thing paki cricket team planned to mock Indians with ,and they might still do it.
Question is how will fans counter it and how will Indian cricket players react ,I believe there's chance of riot among fans.
Now I am frustrated, just get the names of dead pilot with pics or f-16 wreckage or the rajnath's third surgical strike, something to burn paki asses ,they are running around with bloodied pics of abhi mocking in worst possible ways ,it's boiling my blood.

I don't think few strikes on LoC or shooting down few F 16s or hitting terrorist camps with Spice 2000 matters anymore. It's in MSM that India called off Brahmos strikes on Pakistan under pressure from USA and other ME countries on 27 Feb.

Events of 27 Feb have snowballed into something bigger and sinister.

 

[Deathstar]

I don't think few strikes on LoC or shooting down few F 16s or hitting terrorist camps with Spice 2000 matters anymore. It's in MSM that India called off Brahmos strikes on Pakistan under pressure from USA and other ME countries on 27 Feb.

Events of 27 Feb have snowballed into something bigger and sinister.

That was ISI propaganda that India was ready for missile strikes to pressure us to deescalate

 

[ezsasa]

Our services have not exactly come been covering themselves in glory on the PR front lately. Whether it was the IA with its ridiculous Yeti fiasco, IAF with the bad handling of the leaks in Mi-17 and AN-32 crashes (announcing a reward for information!!! wtf ) or the IN with the accidental FT jettison at Dabolim. From all angles they are making themselves look both technically backward and information age Luddites. They seriously need some professional media handling training

It takes time for IA to cultivate PR assets. Look at the options they have in the media, most defence journalists are partial to some foreign MIC or the other.

Ex:

Praveen Swamy created doubts when that paki fishing boat was destroyed on jan 1st 2015.

Vishnu som is a Rafale supporter thru and thru

Pubby and pandit Create most number of rumours every year, in favour of American MIC.

Ajai Shukla and Karnad mostly prefer eurofighter lobby...

I feel india today group as a whole has been compromised long time back. Even if some journalists are neutral, since management is comprised really no point in trusting them.

Basically any journalist whose formative years were spent and got promoted during UPA era are useless for indian narrative.

Hardly 3 or 4 journalists who promote Indian narrative without deviations.

MoD needs to spend time and money to groom 50-100 young apolitical journalists. Take them on navy rides, make them spend a few nights on front lines and border posts. Make them shoot a few rounds on some rifles... make sure they know how to identify defence equipment. Etc etc...

Or a simple solution is to encourage retired young officers from all branches to take up journalism. I say maj. Gaurav arya experiment worked out well... there needs to be more voices similar to him now.

Basically a long way to go...