IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Pazhassiraja]

Even though it feels proud to hear that our Mig - 21 Bis has shot down an advanced F-16, one question still puzzles me - What could be the possible scenario that Cmd. Abhinandhan's wingman couldn't protect him while he was returning back after a successful target hit? Couldn't he himself identify the presence of another enemy while chasing the 1st F-16?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Even though it feels proud to hear that our Mig - 21 Bis has shot down an advanced F-16, one question still puzzles me - What could be the possible scenario that Cmd. Abhinandhan's wingman couldn't protect him while he was returning back after a successful target hit? Couldn't he himself identify the presence of another enemy while chasing the 1st F-16?

SAM - Surafe to Air Missile
...........................................

 

[Pazhassiraja]

Actually there is a confusion regarding this too - some reports say he was shot by SAM, but some say, by another aircraft.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I think it is MiG29K. I am not sure. MiG29K were lately inducted , right?
Second batch if MiG29K arrived in 2012.

mig-29upg is IAF variant
And mig-29k is navy variant.
mig-29upg is up-to-date aircraft similar to mig-29k or to be precise mig-29 upg is the real f-16 killer(soviets made this aircraft with that in mind su-27 was reserved for their f-15).
On Mig-29k induction timeline you are right, from my view point though.
Also a mig-29 upg squadron is in VERY NORTH INDIA side I don't know exact location or base(forgot about the name).
So, if any mig-29 was activated it would had been this only, regarding mig-29k they are based in GOA or on INS Vikramaditya.

 

[mayfair]

SAM - Surafe to Air Missile
...........................................

The risk of firing of BVRs in a dense combat environment, with a high risk of blue on blue kill.

Napakis fired all their BVRs while staying back, hoping to snag at least one kill. That they missed ALL, not to mention all the glide and LG bombs, tells a lot about their capability.

It takes extraordinary incompetence to miss ALL targets, stupidity infests Napaki DNA like nothing else.

 

[IndianHawk]

The risk of firing of BVRs in a dense combat environment, with a high risk of blue on blue kill.

Napakis fired all their BVRs while staying back, hoping to snag at least one kill. That they missed ALL, not to mention all the glide and LG bombs, tells a lot about their capability.

It takes extraordinary incompetence to miss ALL targets, stupidity infests Napaki DNA like nothing else.

Napaki wanted to show strength ended up exposing there weakness.
They wasted 5-6 aam worth 20 million . Sukhoi jammed them real good.
Showing ineffectiveness of paki bvr arsenal against su30. Hence now napaki running headless for better missiles. The joke is that only available missile are Chinese which are a decade behind the American which su30 jammed.

Also showed their lack of tactics firing bvr from much farther then optimal distance. Either they were shit scared to come any closer or they are just plane dumb idiots.

The whole episode exposed how useless jf17 is which can't hold few mirages for a while and can't fire any bvr.
And they got crown jewel f16 shot down beautifully captured on phalcon AWACS .

A complete shit show from napaki.


Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Immanuel]

Napaki wanted to show strength ended up exposing there weakness.
They wasted 5-6 aam worth 20 million . Sukhoi jammed them real good.
Showing ineffectiveness of paki bvr arsenal against su30. Hence now napaki running headless for better missiles. The joke is that only available missile are Chinese which are a decade behind the American which su30 jammed.

Also showed their lack of tactics firing bvr from much farther then optimal distance. Either they were shit scared to come any closer or they are just plane dumb idiots.

The whole episode exposed how useless jf17 is which can't hold few mirages for a while and can't fire any bvr.
And they got crown jewel f16 shot down beautifully captured on phalcon AWACS .

A complete shit show from napaki.


Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

While Paki tactics were inferior, can't really fault the Aim-120 here. As said before, the Aim has a very good 'Home on Jam' mode and will home on MKI regardless of the jamming, you can bet your ass that it's actually the flying skills, timely chaffing and supersonic evasive maneuvers that saved the MKI. By the time the MKIs recovered & vectored towards the targets, they were already running with their tails between their rosy cheeks.

When missiles including the Aim, R-77 or even Meteor are launched at D-Max ranges, the target has the opportunity to run (if the missile launch is detected), chaffing all the while, go supersonic and use terrain masking to avoid them, before their seekers go active. The pilot would need to pull some highspeed supersonic turns, allowing the missile to bleed energy with every change in vector. With Meteor the time will be shortened, the pilot would need more than jamming, his best bet in on going evasive, he also needs a wing and a prayer.

Hope those unwashed abduls pray to their unwashed Gods since they will be violated by the Rafale.

 

[Joker]

By firing (and failing at) amraams pakis have exposed their Musharraf's to future IAF probes (lol). They don't have any other card in air to air scenario, and no money to buy more. I imagine once the elections are over, IAF probing the preparedness of PAF on regular basis.....with regular sorties over pakiland. All the while bleeding PAF dry. Remember, PAF is the most jihadi air Fart in the world. Can see a mutiny from them.

 

[mist_consecutive]

While Paki tactics were inferior, can't really fault the Aim-120 here. As said before, the Aim has a very good 'Home on Jam' mode and will home on MKI regardless of the jamming, you can bet your ass that it's actually the flying skills, timely chaffing and supersonic evasive maneuvers that saved the MKI. By the time the MKIs recovered & vectored towards the targets, they were already running with their tails between their rosy cheeks.

When missiles including the Aim, R-77 or even Meteor are launched at D-Max ranges, the target has the opportunity to run (if the missile launch is detected), chaffing all the while, go supersonic and use terrain masking to avoid them, before their seekers go active. The pilot would need to pull some highspeed supersonic turns, allowing the missile to bleed energy with every change in vector. With Meteor the time will be shortened, the pilot would need more than jamming, his best bet in on going evasive, he also needs a wing and a prayer.

Hope those unwashed abduls pray to their unwashed Gods since they will be violated by the Rafale.

Actually, it's both. Paki had inferior knowledge of Aim-120 and it's working.

When missiles including the Aim, R-77 or even Meteor are launched at D-Max ranges, the target has the opportunity to run (if the missile launch is detected), chaffing all the while, go supersonic and use terrain masking to avoid them, before their seekers go active. The pilot would need to pull some highspeed supersonic turns, allowing the missile to bleed energy with every change in vector. With Meteor the time will be shortened, the pilot would need more than jamming, his best bet in on going evasive, he also needs a wing and a prayer.

Alongside with jammers on Sukhoi, the low-power seekers of Aim-120 lock distance was reduced even more. Even if we assume their SAAB AWACS or F-16 can steer the missile towards the aircraft, without a seeker lock it will just bleed energy and miss the target by large margin. I suspect this was the case here.
However, their tactics of keeping Su-30s busy payed off.

As said before, the Aim has a very good 'Home on Jam' mode and will home on MKI regardless of the jamming, you can bet your ass that it's actually the flying skills, timely chaffing and supersonic evasive maneuvers that saved the MKI.

Actually, HOJ doesn't work that way. Aim-120 has few launch modes, along with HOJ. If a missile is launched in HOJ, it will passively seek the jamming source target. Flaw is, after launch, you cannot change its launch mode to radar homing. So, if I switch off jamming in-between, the HOJ lock is essentially gone, and the missile is as good as free-flying rocket.
So, tactics are switch jamming from one fighter to another in a round-robin fashion or on-off jamming if it is a single fighter carrying jammer.

Essentially, PAF has shown to have poor experience and tactics regarding BVR combat. Or, we can say IAF is far more experienced in this field.

But, one thing I cannot (and neither can IAF, so expect a comeback after election ) swallow that they challenged us in broad daylight and tried to shoot down our fighters in our own territory, while cowardly firing missiles from across the border. Wing Cdr Abhinandan was outraged when they tried to hit his wingman and chased down the F-16s across the border in a rather Rambo strategy.

 

[mist_consecutive]

By firing (and failing at) amraams pakis have exposed their Musharraf's to future IAF probes (lol). They don't have any other card in air to air scenario, and no money to buy more. I imagine once the elections are over, IAF probing the preparedness of PAF on regular basis.....with regular sorties over pakiland. All the while bleeding PAF dry. Remember, PAF is the most jihadi air Fart in the world. Can see a mutiny from them.

They realized ineffectiveness of Aim-120 infront of Israeli jammers and ran to their sugar daddy china for some PL-10, I heard they tried to integrate it on their junk fighter, not sure if they got them operational.

 

[hit&run]

The risk of firing of BVRs in a dense combat environment, with a high risk of blue on blue kill.

Napakis fired all their BVRs while staying back, hoping to snag at least one kill. That they missed ALL, not to mention all the glide and LG bombs, tells a lot about their capability.

It takes extraordinary incompetence to miss ALL targets, stupidity infests Napaki DNA like nothing else.

Recently I meet an Aviator from Australia, he has been now moved to long range drones (USA) tracking and coordination part of the forces (technical) from active flying services.

He told me that no one is interested in Indo-Pak tug of war in their circles but there are certain things which both sides are agreeing by attributing positively to each other and are giving a lot of clues about the whole incident.

The Balakot strikes and the kind of strike package India used by invading mainland Pakistan and how PAF jets were seen doing countermeasures but couldn't intercept them is a mission that is now discussed in classrooms.

The second incident is rather more interesting given Pakistani package, the advantage and the weapons they fired. He added ingressing party is always at the advantage, sees and fires first against low numbers of inceptors or CAP jets. Pakistanis should have taken everything down.

He said what both sides claimed on day 1 has more credibility than what is added later on. The Pakistani claim of shooting 2 Indian jets and arresting 3 Pilots but then retracting the statement in the evening followed by Indian claim of shooting F-16 is most plausible. It seems both sides lost a plane that day.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

Actually, HOJ doesn't work that way. Aim-120 has few launch modes, along with HOJ. If a missile is launched in HOJ, it will passively seek the jamming source target. Flaw is, after launch, you cannot change its launch mode to radar homing. So, if I switch off jamming in-between, the HOJ lock is essentially gone, and the missile is as good as free-flying rocket.
So, tactics are switch jamming from one fighter to another in a round-robin fashion or on-off jamming if it is a single fighter carrying jammer.

You have raised a pertinent point but i guess what you are referring here is Noise jamming.

Today's jammers doesn't just overwhelm with noise but create many false targets by manufacturing false radar reflections with varying power pulses and the transmitter will see targets at many ranges.

Delta T is what determines distance of target and you send radar reflections at different time intervals giving many targets. Why Power also needs to be manipulated is because target at short range will have low environmental loss.

 

[Immanuel]

Actually, it's both. Paki had inferior knowledge of Aim-120 and it's working.



Alongside with jammers on Sukhoi, the low-power seekers of Aim-120 lock distance was reduced even more. Even if we assume their SAAB AWACS or F-16 can steer the missile towards the aircraft, without a seeker lock it will just bleed energy and miss the target by large margin. I suspect this was the case here.
However, their tactics of keeping Su-30s busy payed off.



Actually, HOJ doesn't work that way. Aim-120 has few launch modes, along with HOJ. If a missile is launched in HOJ, it will passively seek the jamming source target. Flaw is, after launch, you cannot change its launch mode to radar homing. So, if I switch off jamming in-between, the HOJ lock is essentially gone, and the missile is as good as free-flying rocket.
So, tactics are switch jamming from one fighter to another in a round-robin fashion or on-off jamming if it is a single fighter carrying jammer.

Essentially, PAF has shown to have poor experience and tactics regarding BVR combat. Or, we can say IAF is far more experienced in this field.

But, one thing I cannot (and neither can IAF, so expect a comeback after election ) swallow that they challenged us in broad daylight and tried to shoot down our fighters in our own territory, while cowardly firing missiles from across the border. Wing Cdr Abhinandan was outraged when they tried to hit his wingman and chased down the F-16s across the border in a rather Rambo strategy.

I can totally understand Pukis having Unwashed Abdul knowledge of BVR in general.

While true once Aim is launched in HOJ mode, one can't change the mode. The Aims were fired after the F-16 was shot down (akin to popping smoke in order to retreat), once launched at DMax and with several missiles in the air, it would be unwise to turn off the Jammer since other missiles could be launched in 'Active Seeker' mode and there were 4+ F-16s in the area which is a worse position to be in. Keeping in mind, Two MKI were playing Tanker while two were free to tackle. It would be a dangerous thing to do too.

Those MKI had to dance to get out of the way. While at DMax, no BVR missile with the exception Meteor and Aim-120D could be really a big threat. One still needs to dance.

Wing CO is AKA Babbar Sher. A direct R-73 shot in the bumbaclot. No flinching, no fear. Pukis closed down their airspace for a month due to his 'audacity'.

 

[IndianHawk]

While Paki tactics were inferior, can't really fault the Aim-120 here. As said before, the Aim has a very good 'Home on Jam' mode and will home on MKI regardless of the jamming, you can bet your ass that it's actually the flying skills, timely chaffing and supersonic evasive maneuvers that saved the MKI. By the time the MKIs recovered & vectored towards the targets, they were already running with their tails between their rosy cheeks.

When missiles including the Aim, R-77 or even Meteor are launched at D-Max ranges, the target has the opportunity to run (if the missile launch is detected), chaffing all the while, go supersonic and use terrain masking to avoid them, before their seekers go active. The pilot would need to pull some highspeed supersonic turns, allowing the missile to bleed energy with every change in vector. With Meteor the time will be shortened, the pilot would need more than jamming, his best bet in on going evasive, he also needs a wing and a prayer.

Hope those unwashed abduls pray to their unwashed Gods since they will be violated by the Rafale.

While you maybe correct. Remember the jammers on su30 were Israeli i.e. a derivative of western mostly American technology.

And MKI being the beast it is can provide enormous power to jammer.

So how capable is aim120 home on jam against a powerful jammer made by western tech.

If it was a battle between western missile and Chinese / Russian jammers I might have agreed with you .

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[mist_consecutive]

You have raised a pertinent point but i guess what you are referring here is Noise jamming.

Today's jammers doesn't just overwhelm with noise but create many false targets by manufacturing false radar reflections with varying power pulses and the transmitter will see targets at many ranges.

Delta T is what determines distance of target and you send radar reflections at different time intervals giving many targets. Why Power also needs to be manipulated is because target at short range will have low environmental loss.

Yes, I guess my explanation was around noise-jamming or overwhelming the enemy radar with false reflective frequencies.

What you are referring seems to be DFRM jamming, in that case, HOJ is not at all applicable since radar cannot differentiate between false (jammed) signal and actual reflected signal. But then again, we are unaware of the capabilities of Elta jammer.

 

[LordofLight]

mig-29upg is IAF variant
And mig-29k is navy variant.
mig-29upg is up-to-date aircraft similar to mig-29k or to be precise mig-29 upg is the real f-16 killer(soviets made this aircraft with that in mind su-27 was reserved for their f-15).
On Mig-29k induction timeline you are right, from my view point though.
Also a mig-29 upg squadron is in VERY NORTH INDIA side I don't know exact location or base(forgot about the name).
So, if any mig-29 was activated it would had been this only, regarding mig-29k they are based in GOA or on INS Vikramaditya.

Mig-29 UPG are based at Adampur Air Base

 

[sayareakd]

I can totally understand Pukis having Unwashed Abdul knowledge of BVR in general.

While true once Aim is launched in HOJ mode, one can't change the mode. The Aims were fired after the F-16 was shot down (akin to popping smoke in order to retreat), once launched at DMax and with several missiles in the air, it would be unwise to turn off the Jammer since other missiles could be launched in 'Active Seeker' mode and there were 4+ F-16s in the area which is a worse position to be in. Keeping in mind, Two MKI were playing Tanker while two were free to tackle. It would be a dangerous thing to do too.

Those MKI had to dance to get out of the way. While at DMax, no BVR missile with the exception Meteor and Aim-120D could be really a big threat. One still needs to dance.

Wing CO is AKA Babbar Sher. A direct R-73 shot in the bumbaclot. No flinching, no fear. Pukis closed down their airspace for a month due to his 'audacity'.

I am add total communication cut off from an district for 3-4 days and for 7 days from the perticular area. No land line, no mobile or internet.

 

[Enquirer]

I think it is MiG29K. I am not sure. MiG29K were lately inducted , right?
Second batch if MiG29K arrived in 2012.

Mig29K is the naval variant (with folding wings etc)
IAF operates Mig29s that are now being upgraded to Mig29UPG (has some similarities with Mig29K in terms of engine etc....)

 

[pankaj nema]

Americans Deliberately gave C 5 version
Of AIM 120 to Pakistan knowing that IAF will be able to Evade and Jam it

They did not even give them C 7

 

[Combatant]

Great analysis F16 identified in smoke