IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

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Jameson Emoni

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Armand,

Based on the performance of Mirages in Kargil and Balakot strikes, Rafale is a sealed deal. I think the only thing that needs to be ironed out is how many. Also, there is a Russia factor. Russians are playing hardball with India. Their quote for MKI upgrade is overpriced unless India goes along with FGFA. Now the question is: Can France partner with India on MKI upgrade and Rafale sale/manufacture? If the answer is yes then it will push Russia out of the picture.
 
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Immanuel

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Armand,

Based on the performance of Mirages in Kargil and Balakot strikes, Rafale is a sealed deal. I think the only thing that needs to be ironed out is how many. Also, there is a Russia factor. Russians are playing hardball with India. Their quote for MKI upgrade is overpriced unless India goes along with FGFA. Now the question is: Can France partner with India on MKI upgrade and Rafale sale/manufacture? If the answer is yes then it will push Russia out of the picture.
France upgrading MKI won't happen
 

Anil47

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who else in europe has the capability to do overseas air operations?
Finland, Sweden
they are good , they also have good technology

When has MKI ever undertaken an 8000km combat mission? Their baptism of fire was only last month.
MKI' first aerial combat was only recently so no one knows what they are capable to and more over these people could have tested it on 27th but badluck.

Based on the performance of Mirages in Kargil and Balakot strikes, Rafale is a sealed deal.
Only if we get them on time. It will take years to be perfectionist with a new aircraft.
 

Armand2REP

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Armand,

Based on the performance of Mirages in Kargil and Balakot strikes, Rafale is a sealed deal. I think the only thing that needs to be ironed out is how many. Also, there is a Russia factor. Russians are playing hardball with India. Their quote for MKI upgrade is overpriced unless India goes along with FGFA. Now the question is: Can France partner with India on MKI upgrade and Rafale sale/manufacture? If the answer is yes then it will push Russia out of the picture.
I don't understand why Russia would be charging so much money for an Su-30 upgrade. It is an aircraft in their inventory that they are upgrading for their own forces and several clients. They have the efficiencies of scale to lower the cost using common components from Su-35 already in mass production and their own testing programme for that upgrade. Unless France already has a tie up with Russia for upgradation of RuAF, as is the case with Sagem INS, Domacles and TopSight, I don't see us getting the source code to work on critical aircraft components.

It sounds like Russia is trying to get India to foot the bill for R&D costs of an upgrade they should already be doing for themselves and their clients... that is like the same deal as FGFA where you pay 50% and only get 13% workshare.
 

Anil47

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I don't understand why Russia would be charging so much money for an Su-30 upgrade.
They want money that's why and India is world's cash cow. And upgrades are classified so we can't say how each upgrade would cost.
 

Armand2REP

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they are good , they also have good technology
To do overseas operations you need one of three things: tankers, carriers or overseas bases. Those countries have none of it, France has all three.

MKI' first aerial combat was only recently so no one knows what they are capable to and more over these people could have tested it on 27th but badluck.
MKI is not fitted for the strike role, maybe when it gets a land attack Brahmos it will take the first step to swing role like the omni-role Rafale. We will wait to see what Super 30 upgrade brings. It sounds like Russia is making it expensive.

Only if we get them on time. It will take years to be perfectionist with a new aircraft.
You will get your Rafale on time as per the contract. Dassault is making 26 a year now.
 

ezsasa

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they are good , they also have good technology
Technical capability is one thing, and capacity and will to do military action far away is a different aspect.

Point i was trying to make for @Armand2REP is that, as UNSC permanent member it had no choice but to support american operations.
 

Armand2REP

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Point i was trying to make for @Armand2REP is that, as UNSC permanent member it had no choice but to support american operations.
We didn't support the American invasion of Iraq so apparently we do have and make our own choices. Unless Article 5 is invoked, no NATO member is obligated to offer any assistance. You ever heard of the coalition of the willing? If you aren't willing, you don't have to do it.
 

ezsasa

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We didn't support the American invasion of Iraq so apparently we do have and make our own choices. Unless Article 5 is invoked, no NATO member is obligated to offer any assistance. You ever heard of the coalition of the willing? If you aren't willing, you don't have to do it.
Operations in Syria or iraq are primarily american domain, isn't it? i am also not saying americans forced france into the theatre.
let's say there countries were in africa, i won't be making that statement because africa is french domain.
 

Armand2REP

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Operations in Syria or iraq are primarily american domain, isn't it? i am also not saying americans forced france into the theatre.
let's say there countries were in africa, i won't be making that statement because africa is french domain.
Syria is a former French colony. Thousands of French Islamists went there and we claimed our right to execute them. Now that we are in control of the Syrian oil fields I do not think we plan to leave.
 

ezsasa

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Syria is a former French colony. Thousands of French Islamists went there and we claimed our right to execute them. Now that we are in control of the Syrian oil fields I do not think we plan to leave.
and what about iraq?.......................
 

Armand2REP

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and what about iraq?.......................
The goal is to keep all of the Kurds pro-French so they will let us develop their vast oil and gas reserves. If they gain their own state we can sell them lots of weapons. Turkey is not dependable and no ally of France.
 

ezsasa

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The goal is to keep all of the Kurds pro-French so they will let us develop their vast oil and gas reserves. If they gain their own state we can sell them lots of weapons. Turkey is not dependable and no ally of France.
So in conclusion. France has capacity, capability and financial motive for the ops...
 

Anil47

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To do overseas operations you need one of three things: tankers, carriers or overseas bases. Those countries have none of it, France has all three.
Well they can arrange bases as well if they want too. They don't really require tankers.

MKI is not fitted for the strike role, maybe when it gets a land attack Brahmos it will take the first step to swing role like the omni-role Rafale. We will wait to see what Super 30 upgrade brings. It sounds like Russia is making it expensive.
I was talking about air to air combat. We havent seen any such where MKI is directly involved. Russians are skeptical mostly about India and Chinese market. Who can pay them better.
 

Armand2REP

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Well they can arrange bases as well if they want too. They don't really require tankers.

I was talking about air to air combat. We havent seen any such where MKI is directly involved. Russians are skeptical mostly about India and Chinese market. Who can pay them better.
It is not so easy to gain base access if you are unable to guarantee protection to the host. As they have no bases they are not capable and do not have the soft power in which to acquire them or the military power to protect them.

The details are sketchy at best. We can only wait for IAF to release a report sometime in the future.
 

Lancer

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@abingdonboy In light of what we saw/learned from the recent aerial engagement; how would you say the IAF and PAF stack up against each other. How do our best fighters compare to the F-16's with their AMRAAM's?
 

Neptune

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Their attrition rate in Syria has been abysmal. When was the last time China used air power? I don't remember as it was before I was born and I am almost 40 years old.



Your comments are factual wrong and comical. Russia lost about 16 aircraft in 3.5 years of a high intensity war. NATO and its allies lost 113 aircraft in Afghanistan. In the first 3.5 years NATO lost 15 aircraft.

Many Russian aircraft that were lost were also either destroyed on the ground (at least 5+ aircraft were shelled) or they were lost due to bird strikes or mechanical problems. Russia also operates a lot of helicopters for close air support and extraction, they are more vulnerable especially in urban areas. If the French were in Russia's position of having thousands of troops on the ground and operating in urban areas with MANPADs and heavy machine guns while having to provide close air support I asure you the French would have lost many aircraft too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan




You act like we don't fly in contested airspace. Serbia, Iraq, Libya and Syria all had IADS that put our pilots at risk. We have the ability to project air power all over the globe and we use it. I am sorry we are not the US with unlimited resources, we have a set budget like India and we use it to great effect.



NATO, particularly the US pounded Iraq and Serbia with cruise missiles and were the spear force. Libya was again a joint operation and very much had an antiquated military.





French aircraft flew 7000km round trip over the Med facing the heavily defended coast. American aircraft came from their bases in the Gulf attacking from the lightly defended Eastern half of the country.



Russia never fired a single shot at any NATO forces in Syria. Don't miss stake Russia upsolding its agreement with the US/NATO of not attacking each other over Syria to mean the French somehow defeated Russia. If Russia wanted to they could have easily sunk French warships with their submarines, naval vessels and ground bases assets. The same thing holds true for French aircraft.





There wasn't American aircraft within 1000km of our strike package. The RAF Tornadoes shot their missiles right off of Cyprus and landed right back on it. We were the only ones playing tag with S-400 and we won. The only ones not detected by the latest and greatest Russian air defence from the mouth of their own MoD. That is what a decade of sniffing the trons gets you, the most comprehensive signals database in the world.



Right......Russia could not detect the French but French cruise missile were shot down. You are lost in translation or western press is miss quoting the Russian MOD.



Clearly the Scalp has shrapnel:


IMG_3229.JPG




More parts of a French Scalp this. Notice the parts are well intact and have no fire damage which is typical of a missile that gets shot down.


IMG_3228.JPG





we humiliated the Russian AD and conducted one of the longest strike missions in history.


Yea, the French really humiliated Russia.....more like the Russians were dying of laughter as the French cruise missiles were detected, shot down missed their targets and failed to even fire. The French are delusional.



The western media especially the French won't show how the Scalp was a flop. Try hitting a target other then dirt before trash talking.



IMG_3230.JPG





The Russian ambassador had already threatened to respond to any attack against Syria. Russia couldn't respond because their S-400 could not detect our aircraft or stealth missiles.





Please, Russia aircraft cross paths with NATO aircraft over Syria often. The following image was taken from an SU-35 over Syria, its an F-22 picked up by the IRST system, the F-22 was probably not exactly hiding but the point is Russia has had the opertunity to shoot down even an F-22 as well as many other aircraft over Syria but chose not to. The French arnt special, you are mistaking Russia's patience for weakness/French machoism.






IMG_3232.JPG





Who knows what type of missile it is, it detonated so it wasn't shot down.


Videos like this?


Or this?


It can't even detect missiles aimed at destroying itself much less Scalp EG miles away.

At this point you are just trolling. In the first video the Pantsir is empty (crew is standing outside) it was also out of munitions.

In the second video the again, the Pantsir is empty, with radar down and door open. You can't even do basic research before pitching your French BS.


Empty abandoned Pantsir that was hit in the video:

IMG_3227.JPG




Pantsir in your second video had its radar off and was probably empty (open door) it was also Israeli air strikes and not French.

IMG_3089.JPG





Stop derailing the thread by acting like a French salesman and bashing everyone else.
 

Armand2REP

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Your comments are factual wrong and comical. Russia lost about 16 aircraft in 3.5 years of a high intensity war. NATO and its allies lost 113 aircraft in Afghanistan. In the first 3.5 years NATO lost 15 aircraft.

Many Russian aircraft that were lost were also either destroyed on the ground (at least 5+ aircraft were shelled) or they were lost due to bird strikes or mechanical problems. Russia also operates a lot of helicopters for close air support and extraction, they are more vulnerable especially in urban areas. If the French were in Russia's position of having thousands of troops on the ground and operating in urban areas with MANPADs and heavy machine guns while having to provide close air support I asure you the French would have lost many aircraft too.
Your list shows how many aircraft France lost after several years in Afghanistan... three. Do you know how many aircraft we lost in Syria after years of battling Daesh? ZERO.


NATO, particularly the US pounded Iraq and Serbia with cruise missiles and were the spear force. Libya was again a joint operation and very much had an antiquated military.
The US pounded them so good they lost dozens of aircraft and their precious stealth fighter. France on the other hand lost hardly anything. Who was the spear of Libya? Oh yes, that was France saving Benghazi from getting slaughtered, not to mention Rafale was there days before mapping the IADs to give targeting data for the missile strike.

Right......Russia could not detect the French but French cruise missile were shot down. You are lost in translation or western press is miss quoting the Russian MOD.
Russia couldn't detect the missiles flying over the AD zone either, so they clearly never saw them. Not surprising considering they are "stealth."


Clearly the Scalp has shrapnel:
Clearly it is a detonated missile, they don't just vaporize when they hit their target. Especially the bunker buster version whose skin gets peeled back like an onion. The target was underground storage tanks.


[Stop derailing the thread by acting like a French salesman and bashing everyone else.
I will say whatever I want, however I want, whenever I want. You got a problem with it take it up with someone who cares.
 

Neptune

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Your list shows how many aircraft France lost after several years in Afghanistan... three. Do you know how many aircraft we lost in Syria after years of battling Daesh? ZERO.


Aircraft losses coincide with sorties as well as threat. The fact is Afghanistan is a low intensity conflict where the French fly a fraction of the sorties compared to the United States hence the lower attrition rate.

As for France "Battling Daesh" in Syria that has never happened besides for propaganda purposes and there are dozens of other terrorist organizations that France never bothered bombing unlike Russia. French aircraft on rare occasions flies into Syria and drops a few bombs from high altitude which they prefer targeting the Syrian military. The vast majority of ISIS was defeated by Syria and Russia with France nowhere to be seen except on occasions bombing Syrian targets. The rest of ISIS east of the Euphrates was defeated predominantly by Kurds with US air power.


Russian forces have battled ISIS, Al-Quida and many other groups. When did France ever help? You are bragging that the French Air Force is great and the Russian Air Force is pitiful based on the fact that the Franch Air Force rarely operates in Syria while the Russian air force flies combat sorties day and night including against militants with MANPADS in urban combat. The Russian Air Force also has/had forward operating basis deep in militant controlled areas. France on the other hand was again nowhere to be seen.


Here let me help you understand with pictures:


Prior to Russia:

IMG_3234.PNG


After Russia:


IMG_3233.JPG






The US pounded them so good they lost dozens of aircraft and their precious stealth fighter. France on the other hand lost hardly anything. Who was the spear of Libya? Oh yes, that was France saving Benghazi from getting slaughtered, not to mention Rafale was there days before mapping the IADs to give targeting data for the missile strike.




The US flew over 65,000 sorties out of 100,000 during Desert Storm. The US operated 1,800 aircraft out of a total 2,250 coalition aircraft. They shot down 31 out of 35 aircraft.

As for the F-117 it made up only 2.5% of coalition aircraft during Desert Storm and hit more then 40% of targets including the most dangerous ones. You are boasting the French Air Force is better than the US and Russian Air Forces based on the fact that those Air Forces lost more aircraft without ever acknowledging that the French lost fewer aircraft because they flew far fewer sorties with far less aircraft and attacked far less dangerous targets.



https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/whitepaper.html

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/h...by-fire-in-desert-storm-25-yea-1753796745/amp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign




Russia couldn't detect the missiles flying over the AD zone either, so they clearly never saw them. Not surprising considering they are "stealth."


Yet somehow some of those missile were clearly shot down and missed their targets. How does Syria detect and shoot down those "stealth" cruise missile but Russia doesn't when Russia has the same or more advanced radar?


French Scalps wreckage revealed shrapnel.





Clearly it is a detonated missile, they don't just vaporize when they hit their target. Especially the bunker buster version whose skin gets peeled back like an onion. The target was underground storage tanks.



Clearly it didn't, there was no underground storage tanks. That is an excuse for missing a target(s). There is no reason to even keep chemicals underground when you can just use any buiding to store those chemicals. The fact is much of the buildings and vehicles of this supposed chemical manufacturing facilities was unharmed which means the French missiles missed. You can make any excuses but the fact is photos revealed no significant damage to this supposed chemicals weapons manufacturing facility other then the ground being hit.



I will say whatever I want, however I want, whenever I want. You got a problem with it take it up with someone who cares




In other words you are acknowledging that you will continue to derail the thread and troll. Make more tall claims expect to be exposed some more.
 
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