IAF Mi-17V5 Crashed Near Coonoor (Tamil Nadu)-CDS Onboard

[vishnugupt]

i had been to ooty, you find fog during evening or morning times but it is of small cloud that keeps moving from one place to ithe,its not like that entire nilgiris will be covered in fog qnd visibilitybis zero.i still believe that it was sabotaged from within thin.

It was not a sabotage for the sure, both services suffered losses. But it was a series of Himalayan negligence from the IAF side.

In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.

People who were wondering How a Su-30mki ejection seat activated its own, How a Fly by wire system failed, How a Mirage 2000 failed to take off and countless more accidents happened on its own??

An Air Force which can't differentiate between Mig-21 and Tejas mk1 will become a mighty force ??? only in the dreams of a few!

Nothing new in the investigation report everyone is expecting the same.

Dead of General Bipin Rawat in the crash is just an another blot on the face of UNAF. It says lot about UNAF's unprofessionalism and training of Carrom board warriors.

Now it's very hard for AF to put blame on helicopter age, it's engine, faulty repair by HAL and gravity itself ( Face saving culture of UNAF ). Because it will highlight IAF even in more bad light.

They failed to despatch a helicopter for route inspection before Rawat's helicopter.

This time they have to bite the bullet.... Blame the pilot "error due to bad weather" by using regretting language.

Even jokes has started flying

 

[Knowitall]

It was not a sabotage for the sure, both services suffered losses. But it was a series of Himalayan negligence from the IAF side.

In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.

People who were wondering How a Su-30mki ejection seat activated its own, How a Fly by wire system failed, How a Mirage 2000 failed to take off and countless more accidents happened on its own??

An Air Force which can't differentiate between Mig-21 and Tejas mk1 will become a mighty force ??? only in the dreams of a few!

Nothing new in the investigation report everyone is expecting the same.



Even jokes has started flying

There was a tussle between the army and airforce after the airforce said that recon flights were launched but the army said nothing of that sort took place.

 

[The Shrike]

Why are they dragging their feet on announcing a new CDS? It's going to be close the a month now.

 

[MonaLazy]

Why are they dragging their feet on announcing a new CDS? It's going to be close the a month now.

What if the new man gives up on the atmanirbhar push? He presides over all three organs- Army, Navy and Airforce. Taking time is fine as opposed to hurrying only to regret later. It is a service position but the incumbent has to be politically aligned with the ruling party.

As for the cause of the unfortunate crash- it was CFIT:

 

[mist_consecutive]

It was not a sabotage for the sure, both services suffered losses. But it was a series of Himalayan negligence from the IAF side.

In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.

People who were wondering How a Su-30mki ejection seat activated its own, How a Fly by wire system failed, How a Mirage 2000 failed to take off and countless more accidents happened on its own??

An Air Force which can't differentiate between Mig-21 and Tejas mk1 will become a mighty force ??? only in the dreams of a few!

Nothing new in the investigation report everyone is expecting the same.



Even jokes has started flying

There is a healthy amount of self-criticism, and then there is you who bashes and insults Indian Armed Forces like its some enemy.
I don’t think I will hear such harsh words from you for PAF or PLAAF.

I have no idea what personal issue you have with Indian Armed Forces, but do not speak what you don’t know. Your rants are just hate-fuelled, born out of pure spite, and devoid of constructive feedback.

 

[The Shrike]

What if the new man gives up on the atmanirbhar push? He presides over all three organs- Army, Navy and Airforce. Taking time is fine as opposed to hurrying only to regret later. It is a service position but the incumbent has to be politically aligned with the ruling party.

As for the cause of the unfortunate crash- it was CFIT:

Couple of weeks should have been enough to shortlist the candidates, interview and make the decision. This is not some khadi udhyog cooperative chairman post that they can keep un filled, longer they do that, more they undermine the post itself.

 

[vishnugupt]

There is a healthy amount of self-criticism, and then there is you who bashes and insults Indian Armed Forces like its some enemy.
I don’t think I will hear such harsh words from you for PAF or PLAAF.

I have no idea what personal issue you have with Indian Armed Forces, but do not speak what you don’t know. Your rants are just hate-fuelled, born out of pure spite, and devoid of constructive feedback.

Indian higher Judiciary ( HC, SC ) and Indian Military Hierarchy ( not including grass-root soldiers/officers ) are two institutes in India yet to enter into the 21st century. They need to understand that their usual rhetoric not going to help them to hide their incompetencies. Their emotional melodrama usually does not benefit the country instead of their self-interest.

For Judiciary, Words like Safety valves, Freedom of expression only serve judges purpose rest of the country is suffering. The same goes for our Armed forces hierarchy, their inability and poor vision costing lives and money. These two need to look down.

You are worried about your reputation that's why you want constructive criticism whereas I am worried about sufferings and humiliations and want to call out loud.

PAF and PLAAF are our enemies and are doing what a enemy do. I can not expect from PLA to inform me before coming to Ladakh or from PA when and where they are going to infiltrate.

 

[Jimih]

Where was the report released?

 

[samsaptaka]

This delay seems murky...some ah final touches to hide the blame ?

 

[Jimih]

This delay seems murky...some ah final touches to hide the blame ?

Blame is entirely on IAF and it should be that way. It's time that IAF owns some accountability.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

It was not a sabotage for the sure, both services suffered losses. But it was a series of Himalayan negligence from the IAF side.

In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.

People who were wondering How a Su-30mki ejection seat activated its own, How a Fly by wire system failed, How a Mirage 2000 failed to take off and countless more accidents happened on its own??

An Air Force which can't differentiate between Mig-21 and Tejas mk1 will become a mighty force ??? only in the dreams of a few!

Nothing new in the investigation report everyone is expecting the same.



Even jokes has started flying

This fly by wire system failure, and failure of Mirage 2000 mission computer has nothing to do with IAF's crew training. These are technical failures. Just like how the ultra-uber F-35s of the most highly trained Japanese and Royal Navy plunged like dead chicken into the ocean.

Yes the VIP transport SOPs needs to be updated. There is also a possibility of a psychological factor that Pilot didn't abort the descent due to pressure of landing a VVIP like Rawat and other top brass to their destination on time. ("And the pilot may have had what the NTSB called -- "self induced pressure" -- to complete the flight, despite the bad visibility, because he wanted to satisfy his client, Kobe Bryant ")
As for the helicopter and their subsytems, Mi 17 is not a VIP transport helicopter. It's a rugged military transport chopper. It must not be used to fly people like PM, RM, NSA, CDS, Service Chiefs etc. But IAF doesn't have another option. One Augusta westland chopper is sitting at Palam Airbase. After the AW fiasco, no government has bothered to buy VVIP transport chopper.

Further: From an experienced retired Mi 17 pilot from other forum
"I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future "

"Actually, WGC helipad is not really a very difficult or unusual helipad. It belongs to the typical category of helipads IAF & Army helicopter pilots are very well used to operating in the North East and North."
Introduction of PinS-based approaches with best RNP of 0.1 means that the on-board navigation system coupled to the autopilot can maintain position of the helicopter within about 185 m (of each specified points-in-space which in turn are part of a pre-planned pattern designed to be at safe heights above terrain). "

"That's good enough only for a non-precision approach - which means that the terminal segment of approach and landing will still have to be visual. The point I was trying to make is that planning a PinS based approach to WGC is likely to put a helicopter far too high above WGC helipad when the pilot transitions to visual mode, which means the visual segment will be too steep. Even helicopters need to fly approach and landings at particular approach angles "

 

[vishnugupt]

This fly by wire system failure, and failure of Mirage 2000 mission computer has nothing to do with IAF's crew training. These are technical failures. Just like how the ultra-uber F-35s of the most highly trained Japanese and Royal Navy plunged like dead chicken into the ocean.

Yes the VIP transport SOPs needs to be updated. There is also a possibility of a psychological factor that Pilot didn't abort the descent due to pressure of landing a VVIP like Rawat and other top brass to their destination on time. ("And the pilot may have had what the NTSB called -- "self induced pressure" -- to complete the flight, despite the bad visibility, because he wanted to satisfy his client, Kobe Bryant ")
As for the helicopter and their subsytems, Mi 17 is not a VIP transport helicopter. It's a rugged military transport chopper. It must not be used to fly people like PM, RM, NSA, CDS, Service Chiefs etc. But IAF doesn't have another option. One Augusta westland chopper is sitting at Palam Airbase. After the AW fiasco, no government has bothered to buy VVIP transport chopper.

Further: From an experienced retired Mi 17 pilot from other forum
"I discussed the possibility with my colleagues who have operated at the WGC helipad. Their opinion is that given the high terrain very close by and the fact that the approach is curved they doubt that even a PinS based approach using SBAS augmented GNSS even with RNP of 0.1 can ever be used at WGC helipad. That approach will perhaps remain a visual approach even in the foreseeable future "

"Actually, WGC helipad is not really a very difficult or unusual helipad. It belongs to the typical category of helipads IAF & Army helicopter pilots are very well used to operating in the North East and North."
Introduction of PinS-based approaches with best RNP of 0.1 means that the on-board navigation system coupled to the autopilot can maintain position of the helicopter within about 185 m (of each specified points-in-space which in turn are part of a pre-planned pattern designed to be at safe heights above terrain). "

"That's good enough only for a non-precision approach - which means that the terminal segment of approach and landing will still have to be visual. The point I was trying to make is that planning a PinS based approach to WGC is likely to put a helicopter far too high above WGC helipad when the pilot transitions to visual mode, which means the visual segment will be too steep. Even helicopters need to fly approach and landings at particular approach angles "

You mean to say, pilot psychology and PinS based approach was the reason for crash.

VVIP SOP need to change?? Why ? If there is no fault of IAF/Pilot then why to change SOP.

You also gave clean chit to IAF about other crashes. Obviously they don't operate and maintain them ..

Going by your logic and explanation, IAF must write final report of crash in one sentence...........

"Crashes ho gaye toh ho gaye bc... Mar gaye toh mar gaye... Humne kaha tha kya humare helicopter me baithne ko"

 

[HawkisRight]

 

[Jimih]

Cant confirm

 

[MonaLazy]

The Indian Air Force (IAF) presented a detailed tri-services inquiry report to Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on the Mi-17 chopper crash on December 8, which led to the death of Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat, his wife and 12 other military personnel, informed sources on Wednesday.

'The IAF gave a detailed presentation for over 45 minutes to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on the CDS chopper crash inquiry report.

'The tri-services probe report has given its findings on reasons behind the crash and made recommendations for the future chopper operations for flying VIPs,' government sources said.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari, Defence Secretary Ajay Kumar and inquiry committee chief Air Marshal Manvendra Singh were there to present the report to the defence minister.

The tri-services inquiry team has also made some recommendations for revising the standard operating procedures while operating choppers carrying senior officials of the defence forces, the sources said.

On the crash details, the sources said the Mi-17V5 was following a railway line in the hills when it entered a thick cloud cover that emerged suddenly.

The chopper was flying at a low altitude and knowing the terrain, it emerged that the crew decided to fly out of the cloud cover rather than land, and hit a cliff in the process, the sources said.

The sources suggested that since the entire crew was 'master green' category, they were confident that they would be able to wriggle out of the situation as there was no distress call made to the ground stations to suggest an emergency.

Sources added that the 'Master green' category is given to the best of pilots in the transport aircraft and helicopter fleets of the three forces as they are the ones who can land or take off in low visibility as well.

Further, it said that one of the recommendations which are learnt to have been made by the inquiry committee is that in future, the crew should be a mix of master green and other category pilots so that if required, they can seek help from the ground stations.

A number of other recommendations are also learnt to have been made by the inquiry committee headed by Air Marshal M Singh.

Rawat chopper crash: Tri-service probe finds no sabotage or snag

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari and Air Marshal Manvendra Singh who headed the tri-service investigation into the crash apprised Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on the findings of the probe on Wednesday.

www.rediff.com

 

[Kartooz]

You mean to say, pilot psychology and PinS based approach was the reason for crash.

VVIP SOP need to change?? Why ? If there is no fault of IAF/Pilot then why to change SOP.

You also gave clean chit to IAF about other crashes. Obviously they don't operate and maintain them ..

Going by your logic and explanation, IAF must write final report of crash in one sentence...........

"Crashes ho gaye toh ho gaye bc... Mar gaye toh mar gaye... Humne kaha tha kya humare helicopter me baithne ko"

Pin-S based approach systems are not installed on IAF choppers. The Mi-17 chopper guy was saying that even with such a system - the chopper would not have been able to make a landing in conditions other than VFR (Visual flight). Being a non-precision approach, the chopper would be too high at its landing spot in conditions of low visibility that would not result in a fruitful landing.

Don't know if VVIP SOPs need to change, but the stress of carrying someone important in the back is very real. No matter what you do, this factor is never gonna change in a country like India.

What really grinds my gears is that IAF does its own investigations for crashes. As we are well aware; the armed forces are known to embellish reports to fit their narrative. A lot of their aircraft crash doing nothing more than simple level flight all the time, and it is high time we start asking them what is going on - may it be poor maintenance, poor planning, poor aircraft, or poor skills.

 

[Love Charger]

Pin-S based approach systems are not installed on IAF choppers. The Mi-17 chopper guy was saying that even with such a system - the chopper would not have been able to make a landing in conditions other than VFR (Visual flight). Being a non-precision approach, the chopper would be too high at its landing spot in conditions of low visibility that would not result in a fruitful landing.

Don't know if VVIP SOPs need to change, but the stress of carrying someone important in the back is very real. No matter what you do, this factor is never gonna change in a country like India.

What really grinds my gears is that IAF does its own investigations for crashes. As we are well aware; the armed forces are known to embellish reports to fit their narrative. A lot of their aircraft crash doing nothing more than simple level flight all the time, and it is high time we start asking them what is going on - may it be poor maintenance, poor planning, poor aircraft, or poor skills.

Carrom board

 

[The Shrike]

CDS Bipin Rawat’s successor ‘unlikely to be named soon'

Former Army chief General Bipin Rawat was India’s first CDS and took charge on 1 January 2020. He passed away in a helicopter crash last month, along with 13 others.

theprint.in

 

[vishnugupt]

In other words, IAF has just repeated the 27 Feb 2019 blunder on 8th December 2021. A poorly-equipped helicopter, Lack of necessary subsystems, Lack of discipline, Poor training of Carrom board warriors, Poor planning, Poor Response, and Himalayan arrogance to accept the fault within.

So CDS died in crash like any other common man and report say nothing ... Means there no accountability in armed forces even if they cause death to high officials. I am still stand with my above statement and here is why?

1) Poorly equipped and Lack of subsystem:- Despite being used to ferry VVIPs, Heli wasn't equipped with Radio altimeter or terrain avoiding system. HAL Rudra was much better transporter but we all know How UNAF maligned local.

2) Lack of discipline:- Pilot was not carrying terrain map to adjust helicopter height accounting to terrain below.
Pilot deliberately put Helicopter in cloud patch without asking CDS , Navigater officer or Ground staff.
As said in report, Pilots were following railway track but last moment video shows otherwise
Nobody was familiar with terrain of Nilgiris.

3)Lack of descipline is a sign of poor training.

4) Poor Planning:-
No Helicopter to inspect the route.
Nobody was tracking Helicopter. They woke up when CDS didn't land by 12:30pm at willington.
Poor evacuation plan despite of Helicopter was fly through mountain and Jungles.

5) Poor response:- Helicopter crash reported by Locals first and so was they first responders.
Armed forces responded almost hour later.
There wasn't an Ambulance while carrying injured. No medicines or Intravenous fluids were given.

This is true VVIPs must carry in an advance Choper but not having one doesn't mean you can't ferry VVIPs safely. Others device different strategy while UN Armed forces cry for Specific type of Helicopter... This is the difference.

 

[samsaptaka]

So that's it ? No official communication by IAF or govt on the reason for the crash ? Just this ? What about taking measures to ensure it will not repeat ? Any statement on that ? Or is it the same jai ho russian maal attitude ? Armed forces know best, bloody civilians are morons, MiG-21 is better than junk Tejas anyday attitude ?