HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[abingdonboy]

HAL ordered what army/IAF wants. French company won based on tender issued in 2004.Even if HAL has ordered it, much time has been spent onit’s development and integration. It’s already poor optics that Rudras are I equipped for nearly a decade now , these birds are not ready for war yet.Just order Mistral and keep the armed forces on ready state till an local missile is developed

Peacetime mindset. They’d rather wait for the final product than be ready in the interim because ‘chances are’ they won’t need them. Indian leadership has got too used to border clashes and has forgotten that a military should be ready 24/7 for an all out war. The good/bad thing is China will make Delhi realise their foolishness in due course.

+ I don’t believe that HAL has done anything beyond what was asked of them but I find it hilarious that the same people that would bash HAL for this are The same ones that demand HAL ‘do more’ to operationalise platforms. As it stands from ONE YEAR of official contract signing the IA and IAF will have ALL their LSP airframes, heck within 6 months of contract they are deploying squadrons. This is simply unprecedented in Indian military history. It’s easier to blame HAL than ask questions of the ones running the show.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Explain more

Compare specifications.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Peacetime mindset. They’d rather wait for the final product than be ready in the interim because ‘chances are’ they won’t need them. Indian leadership has got too used to border clashes and has forgotten that a military should be ready 24/7 for an all out war. The good/bad thing is China will make Delhi realise their foolishness in due course.

+ I don’t believe that HAL has done anything beyond what was asked of them but I find it hilarious that the same people that would bash HAL for this are The same ones that demand HAL ‘do more’ to operationalise platforms. As it stands from ONE YEAR of official contract signing the IA and IAF will have ALL their LSP airframes, heck within 6 months of contract they are deploying squadrons. This is simply unprecedented in Indian military history. It’s easier to blame HAL than ask questions of the ones running the show.

The thing is LCH line would site idle for the next 3-4 years. Cos the next order is supposed to be big. And HAL can’t start orders in anticipation today. The follow on orders should be placed today

 

[Chinmoy]

First it’s Livefist. It’s a reputed defence website handled by Shiv Aroor. Second, have an idea on how development and testing works.

The developer has to plan ahead to get approvals, RFP even for testing. I had said before in an previous conversation, what Army/IAF wants and what MoD wants is different on many occasions. Bureaucrat have no idea on how tech is developed and rather look only from a cost point of view.

Small order of missiles are “always” ordered for design, testing and validation of the system in development. Those units are mostly used for test firing and integration. HAL might have ordered 50 units.

After that it’s the MoD, army and IAF needs to figure out the final figure. If youa are aware, the designer of VandeT18 train faced corruption allegations and was transferred saying they did not order parts through proper RFP. He hit back saying, R&D is different and they are allowed to have single vendor in R&D scenarios. Finally he was cleared and T18 is progressing now, with the same vendor now winning 100+ traction system or something similar order.

The report is not contradicting. HAL might have ordered more Mistrals for LCH test firing too. HAL does not order on the behalf of Army or AF. Whatever emergency powers armed forces have, they were given to order to the tune of 300 crore only after Galwan. That was in 2020. This article was in 2019. After Feb 19, they used their emergency power to order A2A missiles and SDR for our fighters.

Things are not ordered after they are flown. Stuffs are designed around parts they have ordered. In this case, the launchers. HAL has done the right thing in specifying armaments even before designing. This is the way R&D works. It’s the MoD which is playing stupid by keeping our helis unarmed. Our Sukhois atleast regularly use their missiles in exercises. Our helis don’t even do that cos they don’t have the missiles rather than the ones ordered by HAL for testing. I do agree armed forces have a tiny number for emergencies. But that’s it

I am nowhere saying that Livefist is peddling lie here. What I am saying is, they are twisting the facts.

For example have a look and read this report by them on Tejas Mk2.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/looking-at-12-squadrons-of-lca-tejas-mk-2-iaf-chief-confirms/

This whole report mentions that IAF chief mentioned about going forward with 12 sqds of Tejas Mk2. But if you would go through the whole interview available in youtube, you would come to know that he categorically mentioned 12 sqds of LCA instead of Mk2 or Mk1A. Now whether they twisted the fact knowingly or unknowingly, I don't know. But the fact is, they twisted what IAF Chief said.

Now coming to emergency powers.

This is a screenshot of Delegation of Financial Powers to Defence Services-2016. I have just shared the weapon purchasing power of IA here just to show that back in 2016 too, emergency procurement power for forces did exist. After Galwan it has been increased.

 

[aspdeepak]

For those who complain about it's weapon package:

I fully agree your point that all the weapon package should be from day one(LSP), however some of the home grown solutions are either under-development(AAM) or final stages of user trials(ATGM).

The EW suit integration and ATGM trails will be beginning on the LSP airframes from next year.

So all the weapon package it has now, are a stopgap solution, until the indigenous solutions are mature/available.

The following picture shows that IAF does not want to show the full weapon load-out, most likely it doesn't have enough on it's inventory. The same is the case with Apache, I've rarely seen our Apaches flying with full helfire(ATGM or rockets) load-out. Same is the story with our MI-35s.

IAF Prachanda LCH - LSP (Original)

Marked with their weapons

This shows that LCH still has weapons at its disposal either it's AAM rockets. So it could still pack a punch at high altitudes. No wonder why IAF was flying this birds in Ladakh even before their induction.

Should there be a need, they'll place orders for the weapons using emergency procurement.

This is a growth mindset with the current IAF, which is way better than the times when LCA were barely accepted during their time. Remember LCA is FOC is a different bird than it's LSP.

In case of LCH there's no match of its capability in the world in terms of its service ceiling. So that will also motivate IAF to adopt/encourage it.

Like many, I also want LCH to fly with Dhruvastra (ATGM), that too in it's Quad launcher config. That'll be a menacing look

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

How far are we from indigenous weapons packages?

 

[Suryavanshi]

How far are we from indigenous weapons packages?

VEM tech was making Guided Rocket pods in JV with the Foren compnay

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

What's our timeline?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I am nowhere saying that Livefist is peddling lie here. What I am saying is, they are twisting the facts.

For example have a look and read this report by them on Tejas Mk2.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/looking-at-12-squadrons-of-lca-tejas-mk-2-iaf-chief-confirms/

This whole report mentions that IAF chief mentioned about going forward with 12 sqds of Tejas Mk2. But if you would go through the whole interview available in youtube, you would come to know that he categorically mentioned 12 sqds of LCA instead of Mk2 or Mk1A. Now whether they twisted the fact knowingly or unknowingly, I don't know. But the fact is, they twisted what IAF Chief said.

Now coming to emergency powers.

View attachment 175201View attachment 175201

This is a screenshot of Delegation of Financial Powers to Defence Services-2016. I have just shared the weapon purchasing power of IA here just to show that back in 2016 too, emergency procurement power for forces did exist. After Galwan it has been increased.

Still no evidence of A2A or ATGM missiles ordered. I can forgive for LCH, since it’s only official inducted this month. It’s the Rudra which has been nearly for an decade and has been unarmed. All we are saying, you and me, is for the armed forces to be prepared 24/7, and this govt and the previous govt has been only been slogans always fulfilling only the bare needs of our armed forces inspire of capable domestic platforms.

 

[Eagle Eye]

indigenous weapons packages?

user trails of helina going on rudra,can start for lch. Drdo aam hv to wait 4yrs,unless mistral comes[integrated in rudra].

 

[aspdeepak]

Still no evidence of A2A or ATGM missiles ordered. I can forgive for LCH, since it’s only official inducted this month. It’s the Rudra which has been nearly for an decade and has been unarmed. All we are saying, you and me, is for the armed forces to be prepared 24/7, and this govt and the previous govt has been only been slogans always fulfilling only the bare needs of our armed forces inspire of capable domestic platforms.

Where did you get information that LCH doesn't have A2A missile.
I have time and again shown the proof of it being tested successfully and LSPs flying with A2A missiles.

Don't spread misinformation!

For ATGM they are awaiting for indigenous options.
Checkout the mistral in the outermost pillions.

 

[aspdeepak]

For those who complain about it's weapon package:

I fully agree your point that all the weapon package should be from day one(LSP), however some of the home grown solutions are either under-development(AAM) or final stages of user trials(ATGM).

The EW suit integration and ATGM trails will be beginning on the LSP airframes from next year.

So all the weapon package it has now, are a stopgap solution, until the indigenous solutions are mature/available.

The following picture shows that IAF does not want to show the full weapon load-out, most likely it doesn't have enough on it's inventory. The same is the case with Apache, I've rarely seen our Apaches flying with full helfire(ATGM or rockets) load-out. Same is the story with our MI-35s.

IAF Prachanda LCH - LSP (Original)
View attachment 175270

Marked with their weapons
View attachment 175271

This shows that LCH still has weapons at its disposal either it's AAM rockets. So it could still pack a punch at high altitudes. No wonder why IAF was flying this birds in Ladakh even before their induction.

Should there be a need, they'll place orders for the weapons using emergency procurement.

This is a growth mindset with the current IAF, which is way better than the times when LCA were barely accepted during their time. Remember LCA is FOC is a different bird than it's LSP.

In case of LCH there's no match of its capability in the world in terms of its service ceiling. So that will also motivate IAF to adopt/encourage it.

Like many, I also want LCH to fly with Dhruvastra (ATGM), that too in it's Quad launcher config. That'll be a menacing look

In this video our IAF apaches fly with just 2 helfire.


Perhaps, they don't want to expose the missiles to the elements of nature or perhaps the operational requirement doesn't need more than just 2 missiles.

Similarly in LCH they just have AAMs(mistral) in the outer pillows to show their existence.

This doesn't mean IAF doesn't have helfire or mistral.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

At this point, i would say given our economy, population, and size, impossible to completely invade us. At most, we will lose some border areas or a few states if things get super bad.

I am sorry if i ask too much, can we ever compete with US in defence, think about worst situation when US wants to attack India, is we able to defend ourselves ? down the line in next 30-40 years this might situation arrive. Are we thinking in this line also ?

 

[aspdeepak]

In this video our IAF apaches fly with just 2 helfire.


Perhaps, they don't want to expose the missiles to the elements of nature or perhaps the operational requirement doesn't need more than just 2 missiles.

Similarly in LCH they just have AAMs(mistral) in the outer pillows to show their existence.

This doesn't mean IAF doesn't have helfire or mistral.

This is from their official website!

https://www.mbda-systems.com/?action=force-download-attachment&attachment_id=17694

 

[abingdonboy]

The thing is LCH line would site idle for the next 3-4 years. Cos the next order is supposed to be big. And HAL can’t start orders in anticipation today. The follow on orders should be placed today

I can’t even get my head around what a mess the Indian military is making of this. A few years back one could have rightly blamed the Indian developers but today the bottleneck is simply not ordering what is tested and ready for production, it’s actually mind blowing that they have systems like LCH, LUH, ATAGS, Arjun, HTT-40, NAMICA, WhAP etc etc ready for service and they won’t even give them contracts or anything more than piecemeal low digit orders but they’ll throw billions at ‘emergency procurements’ of imported stuff.

it makes my blood boil to see these projects being sabotaged in real time but the outrage being absent from the relevant quarters.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I can’t even get my head around what a mess the Indian military is making of this. A few years back one could have rightly blamed the Indian developers but today the bottleneck is simply not ordering what is tested and ready for production, it’s actually mind blowing that they have systems like LCH, LUH, ATAGS, Arjun, HTT-40, NAMICA, WhAP etc etc ready for service and they won’t even give them contracts or anything more than piecemeal low digit orders but they’ll throw billions at ‘emergency procurements’ of imported stuff.

it makes my blood boil to see these projects being sabotaged in real time but the outrage being absent from the relevant quarters.

Two things come to my mind:

1. Do they have scale to mass produce and dependencies on imports at sub component level?
2. Are they good enough to face what enemy has?

If army is concerned then they should atleast deploy couple of experimental full time units to validate and address the short comings.....this importing as emergency can't fly just like that as PM and few others are keeping an eye overall. We may be blaming too much....

 

[abingdonboy]

Two things come to my mind:

1. Do they have scale to mass produce and dependencies on imports at sub component level?
2. Are they good enough to face what enemy has?

If army is concerned then they should atleast deploy couple of experimental full time units to validate and address the short comings.....this importing as emergency can't fly just like that as PM and few others are keeping an eye overall. We may be blaming too much....

1) a$$ backwards. Scale comes FROM orders. You can’t ask them to scale first then orders will come (actually the geniuses inside Indian armed force HQs do expect this)
2) what product out there does LCH’s mission better than LCH? All of the products I mentioned have passed the various stages of users trails from the Indian armed forces (who take pride in having the most convoluted and impossible trail process around)

 

[omaebakabaka]

1) a$$ backwards. Scale comes FROM orders. You can’t ask them to scale first then orders will come (actually the geniuses inside Indian armed force HQs do expect this)
2) what product out there does LCH’s mission better than LCH? All of the products I mentioned have passed the various stages of users trails from the Indian armed forces (who take pride in having the most convoluted and impossible trail process around)

Then its the RM and PM and FM not doing their job to set a clear policy on getting it locally. No whistle blowers in Indian system that actually can expose some of this stuff....

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Where did you get information that LCH doesn't have A2A missile.
I have time and again shown the proof of it being tested successfully and LSPs flying with A2A missiles.

Don't spread misinformation!

For ATGM they are awaiting for indigenous options.
Checkout the mistral in the outermost pillions.
View attachment 175300

LCH has the missile tested and integrated. But no actual order yet. They might be dummy or from HAL remaining stock or from emergency stock of IAF. LSP belongs to HAL. Not IA or IAF.

So you don’t spread misinformation and give us any sources to prove otherwise. The Rudra and LCH are flying with basic minimum armament

 

[Chinmoy]

The below article mentions that a new Air to Air Missile and not the Mistral will be procured for the LCH. Any idea which that would be ? Also, since Mistral specific launchers have already been purchased and integrated by HAL on LCH would the new missile be compatible with it or the launchers would require to be changed at an enormous cost ??

Army to move first LCH squadron to Missamari near LAC by October end

LCH is the Army’s first dedicated attack helicopter

www.thehindu.com

The new ATAM by Diankar Peri is similar to the open hatch of Arihant.