HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[indiatester]

Guys, RADAR is not just used for targeting purpose, it is also used for tracking purpose. Added advantage of a RADAR is the 360 degree situational awareness of the battle field the pilot and weapon officer of a copter do have. For example Apache MmW RADAR could detect around 80 odds target in a battlefield, and could target any 4 to 6 of them. But along with its RADAR, its optics based targeting pod does job of targeting.

Now on high altitude of Himalayan ranges, RADAR would not work in its full potential of tracking and targeting. So optics based tracking and targeting would do the job just fine for LCH. But may be in future we could see a heli based RADAR in later version of LCH (ACH) for our western sector.

One more point. Not all helicopters need this ability if you have bigger dedicated platforms that are at a standoff distance and doing the targeting for you. In that case, LCH can just be the weapon carrier.

 

[raja696]

My doubt is for example

2 lch are locked on 6 targets each total 12 targets ready to fire.

Is there any sync between 2 lch to avoid redundancy to strike same target.

Any intelligent system which prioritise targets so that all 12 targets are killed.

Do I make sense?

 

[indiatester]

My doubt is for example

2 lch are locked on 6 targets each total 12 targets ready to fire.

Is there any sync between 2 lch to avoid redundancy to strike same target.

Any intelligent system which prioritise targets so that all 12 targets are killed.

Do I make sense?

Yes. Such systems exist and that is why the machines are networked. Not sure of the exact term for them though.

 

[Chinmoy]

Yes. Such systems exist and that is why the machines are networked. Not sure of the exact term for them though.

Network Target Coordination.....

 

[Chinmoy]

One more point. Not all helicopters need this ability if you have bigger dedicated platforms that are at a standoff distance and doing the targeting for you. In that case, LCH can just be the weapon carrier.

Third Party Targeting works fine with LASER targeting and seekers. But with RADAR, work is still in progress we could say. Mig 25 had done this, where the commanding fighter had illuminated the target and guided the missile fired from the wingman aircraft. But all of them were in formation flight. Using something like AWACS or any such platform for targeting purpose is still in planning phase.

 

[Prashant12]

India’s chopper fleet to get teeth with air-to-air missiles

Weaponised Advanced Light Helicopter - Rudra | Source: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
Final price negotiations for are on for the Indian chopper fleet and the first firing is expected to be conducted on an LCH by the year-end.

The Indian chopper fleet is set to get teeth, with the defence ministry initiating the final process of ordering new missiles for the Rudra. Developers are also planning a live firing of the air-to-air missile on the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) by the year-end.

India presently has two indigenous attack helicopter programs – the Rudra (a weaponised version of the Advanced Light Helicopter) which joined service in 2013, and a LCH that is under development, and set to be in service with both the Army and Air Force. A total of 78 Rudras have been ordered, with 23 of them already in service.

The Rudra is currently armed with only a forward mounted machine gun and rockets, limiting its operational role in the battlefield. The helicopter will now be equipped with new anti-air missiles that will make it capable of taking down enemy choppers and UAVs.

The Indian Air Force—which is the lead agency for integrating these missiles on the Rudra—has called French missile manufacturer MBDA for final cost negotiations to supply the Mistral missile for the fleet.

“The contract negotiation committee will start in a few days. We had to do work on a few items before, which is now complete. We are fully compliant with the chopper,” Loic Piedevache, Country Head (India) of MBDA, said.

Little has been heard about the Rudra fleet in the past few years, but its presence at the Nalia airbase in Gujarat was revealed during Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman’s recent visit during which she inspected the helicopter.

The entire Rudra fleet, a majority of which will stay with the Army, will be armed with the Mistral missile. Talks are also on to procure an anti-tank missile for the fleet that will be fitted at a later stage.

The plan to develop a highly agile combat chopper under the LCH program is also set to get a boost with MBDA saying that the helicopter will be undertaking a live firing of the Mistral missile before the end of this year.

The LCH – 179 of which have been ordered – is currently under development and the integration of the Mistral missile will be a major milestone.

The Mistral missile will also be a major milestone for the Rudra. The LCH live firing will take place at the Chandipore testing range by year end and is expected to go smoothly as the Rudra and LCH share many systems including radars and the combat management system.

Besides the Rudra and the LCH, the Army and the Air Force are also getting the Apache attack choppers that are manufactured in the US. Described as the ‘most lethal in the world’, six Apache helicopters were cleared for the army in August, in addition to 22 attack choppers already ordered by the Indian Air Force.

https://theprint.in/2017/09/19/choppers-fleet-teeth-missiles/

 

[charlie]

Third Party Targeting works fine with LASER targeting and seekers. But with RADAR, work is still in progress we could say. Mig 25 had done this, where the commanding fighter had illuminated the target and guided the missile fired from the wingman aircraft. But all of them were in formation flight. Using something like AWACS or any such platform for targeting purpose is still in planning phase.

Yes you are right on that, it was the first fighter to do that. But I don't think LCH has a system like that.

 

[charlie]

Yes. Such systems exist and that is why the machines are networked. Not sure of the exact term for them though.

I am just taking a guess here, but I don't think a system like that exist in LCH, I think they use a voice communication on a radio when multiple LCH engages a target.

You need something like a longbow radar to cue the target and decide which platform will engage which target with the help of SDR data.

Think about it rockets and missile that India is going to use on LCH only take visual cues, name me a system which LCH has that's going to use some other system then FLIR, CCD and laser designator, I am not sure but I guess you can light up the target with laser designator but you have to radio other guy saying you are out of rockets can you hit the guy I just lighted up ?

 

[indiatester]

I am just taking a guess here, but I don't think a system like that exist in LCH, I think they use a voice communication on a radio when multiple LCH engages a target.

You need something like a longbow radar to cue the target and decide which platform will engage which target with the help of SDR data.

Think about it rockets and missile that India is going to use on LCH only take visual cues, name me a system which LCH has that's going to use some other system then FLIR, CCD and laser designator, I am not sure but I guess you can light up the target with laser designator but you have to radio other guy saying you are out of rockets can you hit the guy I just lighted up ?

Possible, but when I saw HAL mention a Data Link (also mentioned on wikipedia). Exchange of target data only seemed logical.

 

[Narasimh]

Not sure if posted before:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This may not about fire control radar at all, But navigational radar ..

 

[Chinmoy]

Yes you are right on that, it was the first fighter to do that. But I don't think LCH has a system like that.

No.......... LCH doesn't have a RADAR and can't direct a missile fired from buddy pair to a target. Although it does have LASER designator, but it has yet to do a third party targeting. But along with designator, a important part is the seeker of the missile too. As of now, only HELINA is planned for LCH and it doesn't have a LASER seeker. But with MISTRAL in armory, may be we could see LCH doing something like that in future...

 

[indiatester]

No.......... LCH doesn't have a RADAR and can't direct a missile fired from buddy pair to a target. Although it does have LASER designator, but it has yet to do a third party targeting. But along with designator, a important part is the seeker of the missile too. As of now, only HELINA is planned for LCH and it doesn't have a LASER seeker. But with MISTRAL in armory, may be we could see LCH doing something like that in future...

But can the missiles fired by LCH be directed by a buddy?

 

[Chinmoy]

But can the missiles fired by LCH be directed by a buddy?

As of now................. NO.

 

[charlie]

Possible, but when I saw HAL mention a Data Link (also mentioned on wikipedia). Exchange of target data only seemed logical.

Lots of data needs to be shared like text msg, location data, new route map, new co-ordinance update and other stuff are done with data link as well

 

[charlie]

No.......... LCH doesn't have a RADAR and can't direct a missile fired from buddy pair to a target. Although it does have LASER designator, but it has yet to do a third party targeting. But along with designator, a important part is the seeker of the missile too. As of now, only HELINA is planned for LCH and it doesn't have a LASER seeker. But with MISTRAL in armory, may be we could see LCH doing something like that in future...

I replied to indiantester in my next post, you might have missed.

 

[Armand2REP]

I am just taking a guess here, but I don't think a system like that exist in LCH, I think they use a voice communication on a radio when multiple LCH engages a target.

You need something like a longbow radar to cue the target and decide which platform will engage which target with the help of SDR data.

Think about it rockets and missile that India is going to use on LCH only take visual cues, name me a system which LCH has that's going to use some other system then FLIR, CCD and laser designator, I am not sure but I guess you can light up the target with laser designator but you have to radio other guy saying you are out of rockets can you hit the guy I just lighted up ?

An MMW might be able to track 100 targets but what good is that when you only carry 8 missiles? The Longbow only exists to provide targeting data to the rest of the squadron through data links. This can be provided by UAVs. Attack Helicopters have a version of the hunter killer capability used by modern MBTs. FLIR scans the area and pings the targets with a laser which feeds into the targeting computer, you then have targeting data for anything it can see. With a missile like Hellfire or Helina, you can engage multiple targets at once. The Russian system is the one that doesn't make sense using a laser guidance that can only engage one at a time.

 

[charlie]

An MMW might be able to track 100 targets but what good is that when you only carry 8 missiles? The Longbow only exists to provide targeting data to the rest of the squadron through data links. This can be provided by UAVs. Attack Helicopters have a version of the hunter killer capability used by modern MBTs. FLIR scans the area and pings the targets with a laser which feeds into the targeting computer, you then have targeting data for anything it can see. With a missile like Hellfire or Helina, you can engage multiple targets at once. The Russian system is the one that doesn't make sense using a laser guidance that can only engage one at a time.

To be honest that does not make sense, FLIR is a passive device it cannot ping.

Lazer designator can light up the target and other LCH can engage it in theory and you can do digital call for fire for artillery fire by sharing co-ordinates via mail.

In apache once a longbow acquire a target and it designate a unit to engage that target, it can do it BLOS because there is continuous update to the missile, how will that be achieved with FLIR ?

 

[Armand2REP]

To be honest that does not make sense, FLIR is a passive device it cannot ping.

Lazer designator can light up the target and other LCH can engage it in theory and you can do digital call for fire for artillery fire by sharing co-ordinates via mail.

In apache once a longbow acquire a target and it designate a unit to engage that target, it can do it BLOS because there is continuous update to the missile, how will that be achieved with FLIR ?

The laser is built into the FLIR used for ranging. It is not a laser designator nor would you want to use one on a target that has a LWR. You would give your position away. A ranging laser is not strong enough to detect but used for targeting for fire-forget missiles.

 

[charlie]

The laser is built into the FLIR used for ranging. It is not a laser designator nor would you want to use one on a target that has a LWR. You would give your position away. A ranging laser is not strong enough to detect but used for targeting for fire-forget missiles.

take a look under laser sensor they just say Laser target designator and laser illuminator/pointer.

Laser rangfinder is used to find the range.
http://elbitsystems.com/media/DCoMPASS_AIR_2016-1.pdf