HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[he-man]

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Kunal Biswas

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A-10 is unique platform like no other, But same things can be done by other cannon such as GSH-30-2 with 30mm HEAP rounds, though this is different discussion ..

As for on helicopter Gunships the Gatling Gun is not very good compare to a Chain gun for previous reasons also i should add a Aircraft can stay on a large area for short time, But a Gunships stay in a small area for longer durations, Hence conservation of ammo comes into play ..

The A10 uses a GAU Avenger on its nose used to turn tanks to mush, as they say. Can the same effectiveness be achieved through chain guns, if there are any that fire the 30 cal round.

 

[kod]

Kunal Ji,

How much amo can carry in LCH's THL-20 turret amo box ???????

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are no specs avilable on that, Its also hard to assume as this is a light class Gunship and will probably carry lesser ammo, For example Italy's Agusta A129 Mangusta carry with a capacity of 500 rounds of 20 × 102 mm, So LCH may carry 300 - 400 rounds of same 20mm ammo ..

 

[DivineHeretic]

@sydsnyper, I'll add to Kunal's explanation.

The LCH was designed to be combat operable at very high altitudes. Understand that I mean combat operable means being able to do the entire envelop of maneuvers and tasks. Many helicopters can reach the same (or nearly the same) altitude as the LCH, but not one is combat capable at that altitude. And that's the reason why you take the service ceiling of the Apaches and the lot with a bag of salt.

To enable the sterling high altitude performance, every extra kilo that could be shed without compromising fighting capability was shed. The choice of a chain gun (20mm) is a logical choice to that end. As Kunal explained, a gatling gun is much heavier than a chain gun.But that is not all, a heavier gun requires a stronger and thus heavier support structure. Thus you cut two causes of high weight by going for a lighter single barrel gun.

And about 30mm chain guns, well the Apache has that. But why shouldn't you use it on the LCH? I'll show you.

The average weight of the M621 cannon on LCH is roughly 46 Kg. The 30mm M230 chain gun on AH64D weighs 56kg. So, a difference of 10 kg.
Not much, I should think. But then,

A single 20mm round will weigh approximately 100gm. For 400 rounds, this turns out to 40 kg.
On the other hand, a single 30mm HEI round will weigh 240gm. for 400 rounds, this turns out to be 96 kg.

So as you can see, a simple shift from 20mm to 30mm caibre will increase weight by 106kg, which is big considering the developers of LCH were fighting to reduce this much weight for quite sometime.

And finally, neither 20mm nor 30mm will cut through Tank armor, unless the round is DU, which I should add is not available for IA.

 

[Twinblade]

@Kunal Biswas sir.... why do we not use gatlings on the chopper nose. What advantages do chain guns have over gatling guns.

Gatling guns are heavy, too much recoil and vibration for a light helicopter which adversely affects the accuracy, consumes too much ammo.

The A10 uses a GAU Avenger on its nose used to turn tanks to mush, as they say. Can the same effectiveness be achieved through chain guns, if there are any that fire the 30 cal round.

The A-10 was designed around that gun. It was meant to attack hordes of Soviet armor that threatened to run over west germany. Guns are not the preferred mode of taking out armor anymore.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@sydsnyper, I'll add to Kunal's explanation.

The LCH was designed to be combat operable at very high altitudes. Understand that I mean combat operable means being able to do the entire envelop of maneuvers and tasks. Many helicopters can reach the same (or nearly the same) altitude as the LCH, but not one is combat capable at that altitude. And that's the reason why you take the service ceiling of the Apaches and the lot with a bag of salt.

To enable the sterling high altitude performance, every extra kilo that could be shed without compromising fighting capability was shed. The choice of a chain gun (20mm) is a logical choice to that end. As Kunal explained, a gatling gun is much heavier than a chain gun.But that is not all, a heavier gun requires a stronger and thus heavier support structure. Thus you cut two causes of high weight by going for a lighter single barrel gun.

And about 30mm chain guns, well the Apache has that. But why shouldn't you use it on the LCH? I'll show you.

The average weight of the M621 cannon on LCH is roughly 46 Kg. The 30mm M230 chain gun on AH64D weighs 56kg. So, a difference of 10 kg.
Not much, I should think. But then,

A single 20mm round will weigh approximately 100gm. For 400 rounds, this turns out to 40 kg.
On the other hand, a single 30mm HEI round will weigh 240gm. for 400 rounds, this turns out to be 96 kg.

So as you can see, a simple shift from 20mm to 30mm caibre will increase weight by 106kg, which is big considering the developers of LCH were fighting to reduce this much weight for quite sometime.

And finally, neither 20mm nor 30mm will cut through Tank armor, unless the round is DU, which I should add is not available for IA.

I made a mistake in calculating the figures.

The additional weight would be 96+10-40=66Kg and not 106 kg. My mistakes in addition and subtraction haven't been fixed since LKG..

However, I should add that the final difference will include the additional weight due to increased mass and size of the ammunition box (these boxes are armored, and heavy). So the difference will still be above 75kg, but without the density and mass of the box materials, I can't be certain.

Also, the round I chose in the 30mm is the HEI and not the AP version, which weighs 270gm which would take the weight of a 400 round set to 108kg. (making a final difference of 78 kg)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are many kind of 20mm round in service all over the world, Few examples >>

From left the third is LCH`s 20mm ..

20 x 102mm in HEAT or AP or HEAP can cut through well protected MBT with ERA from Roof tops and sides so does other parts of an MBT, This round is used by some of the powerful Anti-material Rifles also..

And finally, neither 20mm nor 30mm will cut through Tank armor, unless the round is DU, which I should add is not available for IA.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@ghost, The article is well balanced one, but I'll point out an important error in it.

Unlike what most people think, range is not the most important parameter of endurance of the attack helicopter. On-air time is. Fact is, the concept of home base does not apply rigidly to a helicopter gunship as it does to say, a fighter aircraft.

In a invasion force, the invasion force will set up what is known as FARBs, or Forward Air Refueling Base some kilometers behind the front line (in some cases, ahead of the frontline). These are usually just a convoy of vehicles carrying aviation fuel, armaments and other supporting assets and staff.

An attack helicopter will return to these bases to get fuelled up and rearmed and get back into action. The FARB will move ahead to a new position as the frontline gets pushed further away.

Thus, unless there is major damage to the attack helicopter, which necessitates return to home base (which will in any case knock it out of operations) an attack helicopter is not required to return to home base.

 

[kod]

There are no specs avilable on that, Its also hard to assume as this is a light class Gunship and will probably carry lesser ammo, For example Italy's Agusta A129 Mangusta carry with a capacity of 500 rounds of 20 × 102 mm, So LCH may carry 300 - 400 rounds of same 20mm ammo ..

Sir,i think Its ammo box carrying in the nose not good and feels futureless.



As per your information 300-400 round,its not enough bcoz getting accuracy in aerial gunnery so difficult.Also covering ammo box with armour,less

chance- limitted space in the nose section.




And in future if we want to upgrade the turret gun system to multi barrel 20 mm, 30mm single barrel or 40mm grenade launcher,ammo carrying capacity

will go even big trouble

suggestion pls...

 

[The Fox]

hey guys i have one question which is not related to the LCH since you have posted the bullet size however here we go
what is the difference between the 12.7 mm bullet used by the Indian Army and the 50 caliber used by the US Army

 

[Twinblade]

As per your information 300-400 round,its not enough bcoz getting accuracy in aerial gunnery so difficult.Also covering ammo box with armour,less

chance- limitted space in the nose section.

It's more than enough. Any airborne cannon is either useless against modern armour or using it requires low passes which puts the platform at risk. 300 to 400 rounds is more than enough in anti personal and fire support role. For other roles it is dead weight which affects high altitude performance.

And in future if we want to upgrade the turret gun system to multi barrel 20 mm, 30mm single barrel or 40mm grenade launcher,ammo carrying capacity

will go even big trouble

suggestion pls...

Why would you want to upgrade the gun ? All helicopter designs are going for lighter guns, lesser ammo and smaller calibers because guns that can be carried by helicopters are useless against modern armour.

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

hey guys i have one question which is not related to the LCH since you have posted the bullet size however here we go
what is the difference between the 12.7 mm bullet used by the Indian Army and the 50 caliber used by the US Army

i dont think there is any difference in 12.7 and.50.

The NATO designation for the .50 BMG is 12.7x99mm. They are the same thing.

Mathematically 12.7 mm is equal to .50 inches

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@kod, Most Helicopter gunship Nose turret carry ammo. Its same for LCH ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They are different, Indian Army use 12.7x108mm which in use with NSV / NSVT HMG where as US and Most NATO use 12.7 x 99mm in 50cal browning HMG and Barret AMR ..

hey guys i have one question which is not related to the LCH since you have posted the bullet size however here we go
what is the difference between the 12.7 mm bullet used by the Indian Army and the 50 caliber used by the US Army

i dont think there is any difference in 12.7 and.50.

The NATO designation for the .50 BMG is 12.7x99mm. They are the same thing.

Mathematically 12.7 mm is equal to .50 inches

 

[bennedose]

[[/URL]

why lch needs to be bloated in area?

That's TD 2 when it was pregnant with TD 3. It's not bloated after delivery.

More seriously, you could ask why the "bloated part" does not extend further back. Google for "area ruling"

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

They are different, Indian Army use 12.7x108mm which in use with NSV / NSVT HMG where as US and Most NATO use 12.7 x 99mm in 50cal browning HMG and Barret AMR ..

thanx for correcting me kunal bhai

 

[sayareakd]

 

[kod]

It's more than enough. Any airborne cannon is either useless against modern armour or using it requires low passes which puts the platform at risk. 300 to 400 rounds is more than enough in anti personal and fire support role. For other roles it is dead weight which affects high altitude performance.


Why would you want to upgrade the gun ? All helicopter designs are going for lighter guns, lesser ammo and smaller calibers because guns that can be carried by helicopters are useless against modern armour.

Sir,
All the present day's best guys are holding 30mm or multi barrel 20mm and they have the capability to adapt various ammos, 7.5 to 40mm grenade launcher.Thats why we called them worlds best.My favorite in this class cobra, designed in mid 60's they are keeping this old design,still they are the one of the best,bcoz of adaptability getting up gradation best possible. they may last for atlest 2025,Then why we dont?????My fear is that almost other desi project it will too fall into 'Mark syndrome' 1,2 maybe 3 then may be live up to ten to fifteen year, After a slow death????


The futuristic machine RAH-66 Comanche had multi barrel 20mm, turkey's latest heli T-129 ATAK keeping old 20mm multi barrel Also heard about Germans tiger helicopter's gun replacement with a new recoiless type gun for better accuracy, they too 30mm.

The only exemption in latest project is i feel, chinees CAIC WZ- had a 14.5 mm,bcoz of lack of reliable bigger ammo gun.Latest super mi 35 upgraded their gun 12.5 to double barrel cannon 23mm GSh-23.

Hunting down armour threat,ok missiles are the best.But a powerful gun definitely a good claw for LCH

If the foundation has less chance to upgradation ,less chance to live long.

 

[Twinblade]

Sir,
All the present day's best guys are holding 30mm or multi barrel 20mm and they have the capability to adapt various ammos, 7.5 to 40mm grenade launcher.Thats why we called them worlds best.My favorite in this class cobra, designed in mid 60's they are keeping this old design,still they are the one of the best,bcoz of adaptability getting up gradation best possible. they may last for atlest 2025,Then why we dont?????My fear is that almost other desi project it will too fall into 'Mark syndrome' 1,2 maybe 3 then may be live up to ten to fifteen year, After a slow death????


The futuristic machine RAH-66 Comanche had multi barrel 20mm, turkey's latest heli T-129 ATAK keeping old 20mm multi barrel Also heard about Germans tiger helicopter's gun replacement with a new recoiless type gun for better accuracy, they too 30mm.

The only exemption in latest project is i feel, chinees CAIC WZ- had a 14.5 mm,bcoz of lack of reliable bigger ammo gun.Latest super mi 35 upgraded their gun 12.5 to double barrel cannon 23mm GSh-23.

Hunting down armour threat,ok missiles are the best.But a powerful gun definitely a good claw for LCH

If the foundation has less chance to upgradation ,less chance to live long.

No 'sir' please.

No need to whinge on one single aspect of the system without understanding the implications and requirements from which it arose. I am going to be concise this time around.
-It's a light helicopter.
-Helicopter borne guns are effectively useless against anything other than soft targets on a modern battlefield. The angles and range needed to penetrate armour with current guns put them at risk of manpads and VSHORADS
-The weight penalty of bigger guns/more ammo is more than any gains in firepower.
-Guns can always be added via a gun pod.
-Guns can always be upgraded (as in case if recoilless guns are feasable)

Other than that, you are cherrypicking examples to suit your case:-
-Tiger attack helicopter, which is in the similar weight and performance class as LCH faced problems with the recoil of 30mm GIAT cannon, that is why the Germans dropped it from their birds deeming it completely unnecessary. The recoilless gun being suggested for Tiger is massive and will never make it on the helicopter.
-Apache was designed when 30mm guns were supposed to be effective against armour. Hence it carries a 30mm gun and large amounts of ammunition. Apache also had the inertia to absorb recoil of that firepower.
-Mi-28, which is also a heavy platform like apache, carries 30mm gun but very small amounts of ammunition.
-Hinds dropped down in firepower by replacing gattling gun with Gsh-23 cannon. Hinds could do with a gattling gun because they were heavy and the recoil did not have much effect due to inertia. With Gsh-23 cannon the amount of ammo carried was reduced resulting in weight savings. A Gsh-23 cannon is not too far away from 20mm GIAT cannon on LCH.
-Multi barrel guns are heavy and useful only for firing for extended bursts.
-Commanche, Mangusta and it's turkish copy might carry 3 barreled 20mm gattling gun but it also carries comparatively small amounts of ammunition (500 rounds). It is also in the same caliber as GIAT 20mm gun on LCH albeit with a higher rate of fire.
-Short bursts of cannon are enough to deal with personnel. 14 rounds a second of 20x102 mm rounds will blow up a human body just as effectively as 80 rounds a second of 12.7x108 mm rounds.
-On light helicopters where there is no damping of recoil, a high firing rate will result in significantly wider grouping unlike small arms where the user's body is able to provide sufficient damping.
-If the gun is deemed unnecessary against armour, long bursts are not needed.
-With lesser amount of ammo on board to keep the bird light, and no requirement of long bursts, single barreled cannon with low rate of fire is good enough.